The Foxestalk Interview - Gordon Milne

On the weekend before his autobiography 'Shankly, My Dad and Me' was published I spoke to Gordon about his career:

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It's great to speak to you, Gordon. You've been a big part of my family's life. My father was from Liverpool and he used to watch you at Anfield in the early 60s. Then he moved to Leicester, where I was born, and I used to watch your team at Filbert Street in the 80s - from the Main Stand Enclosure, about twenty yards from your dugout.

Ah - you weren't one of that group who used to barrack me all the time?

Not me, no! But actually, right next to where I stood there was this group of old Leicester characters who spent the whole game making wisecracks. They were pretty funny. Wait a minute, I'll send you a picture.

Do you recognize them? I don't think they were the ones who barracked you. They didn't have that mean streak - they were just having a laugh. 

The guy in the cap looks familiar! 

I read that your first visit to Filbert Street was back in the 50s when your dad was trainer at Preston, and they came down to play Leicester. You said you were in the Double Decker.

Yeah - the reason I know that is I remember my dad running on to treat someone at that end - the Double Decker end - and  he passed behind the goal on the way back, and he was getting abuse from the fans behind the goal. I always remember that.

As a player at Preston back in the 1930s, your father was nearly chosen for Scotland, then the war intervened. You later played for England. When you were growing up in Preston, did you feel Scottish or English?

Without a question. Scottish. It’s funny this. Before the war, my Auntie Grace came down to live with my parents in Preston. So there were four in the household, and three were Scottish. All my aunties and uncles were Scottish and most were football daft. The only noise I heard was Scottish noise. When that England-Scotland fixture was played my relatives were on the phone from Dundee saying we’re gonna do this and we’re gonna do that.

When your father was the trainer at Preston, he was chosen to do the same job for the Football League XI, wasn't he? And at that time those fixtures were quite prestigious - they were like a trial for the full England team. Did that make it easier for you when you were selected for England, that he'd already kind of moved away from that purely Scottish identity?

We should have had had this conversation 12 months ago, I could have put this in the book! Yes, he was very proud of being selected as trainer. I still have the photo of that game. Looking back now he missed the 1938 final through injury, then the war came along, then he studied physiotherapy and got the qualification he needed, then came the Football League job and taking Preston to the Cup Final in '54.

So your father was trainer at Preston, and you started your career there, but then you felt you needed to move away from him.

You didn’t want any of those complications. You wanted to stand on your own. When I was there with my father I was only part-time. For two years I was doing my apprenticeship. There would be odd occasions when I trained with the first team but that would be very rare. I felt the pressure then. Then I went into the army for two years. I knew that when I went full time I didn’t want to be in that scenario. It didn’t seem right for my dad and for me. I think it’s quite natural.

When you were a manager later, did you ask his advice?

I don't know if it was a different generation but the relationships of fathers to sons were - you just get on with it, learn from your mistakes. Trying to have long conversations with your father was a bit unusual. When we were younger, he’d been in the police force and had been through the war. I wouldn’t say fear, but it was respect. He was not an easy act to follow - there was always that in the background.

Tell us about that extraordinary moment when you and your wife Edith first met.

It was me and David Kerry, another young Preston player. We were playing tennis one night - two young footballers so we think we’re the bees’ knees, poncing around. We saw these two girls playing on another court, and as you do, we were having a look and saying ‘They look alright!’ and their names were Edith and Barbara. It led to two weddings. David and Barbara were still together until a few years ago when he sadly passed away.

Reading interviews with you in the late 60s you said that your favourite game for Liverpool was Leicester away in 1964, in the League. When the bogey was finally laid.

When people saw that Easter programme, no-one gave us a chance. We were going for the title - Shanks' first title - and United and who else was it, in the race?  (Spurs and Everton) - and we had Spurs away on Good Friday, Leicester away the next day then Spurs again at home on Monday. No-one gave us a chance. I picked up an injury at Spurs and it was touch-and-go for Leicester. We were in the Grand Hotel in Leicester on Friday night and Bob Paisley was trying to get me fit. In those days you played a lot when you weren't 100%. It was 'Let's see how it goes, do your best'. And I played, and we won 2-0, then we beat Spurs again on the Monday.

With Leicester, people called them our bogey team, and there was that semi-final where we absolutely battered them but coudn't score past Gordon Banks. But really it wasn't a surprise that Leicester had those good results against us. They were a great side at the time.

When you made your England debut against Brazil, you almost scored in the first twenty seconds when that shot was saved. What a start that would've been.

My son says it was a back pass!

(A reminder of that moment):

You didn't make it into the final squad in ‘66, but you had so many great players competing for those positions in the mid-60s - Venables, Ball, Peters, Tony Kay of Everton...

Tony Kay to me personally was my biggest rival. He had the same style as me. He got into trouble later, didn't he. In 1966 I knew I wasn't at the level I had been. I got that injury before the Cup Final and it took me a long time to recover. Other players were emerging and I was standing still or going backwards a bit. I never felt I’d let myself down in an England shirt, but the recovery period after the injury – it took me longer to get back to where I was. What was more surprising was that Peter Thompson didn't make it. In my eyes, Peter was flying at that time. There was that drive back to Liverpool from Lilleshall after the squad was announced, with five Liverpool players in the car. Roger, Cally, Gerry Byrne - they were in, then me and Peter who were out. A report came on the car radio about the squad and Roger turns it off. After that, we hardly said a word. Then there was Jimmy Greaves. I wasn’t in the squad but for Jimmy it was worse. He was in the squad, and when he didn’t make the final, that killed him.

Do you remember where you were for the Final?

I watched it, but I can’t remember where I was. That could be the reason – not wanting to watch it, in a way. So sick that you’re not there.

You missed out then but I don’t think there’s any doubt that, as a manager, you had more success than any of those who were chosen in Ramsey’s final 22. You could look at Alan Ball maybe, and Jack Charlton of course, but in terms of trophies, no-one can rival you.

It’s never even crossed my mind that. Now that you mention it, it’s interesting. I can’t wish for any more from my career. Of course, there were disappointments, but the longevity of it all is something I look back on with pride.

Even the time at Coventry City. I mean, there were no trophies, but keeping them in Division One for nine seasons has to be counted as a success.

Well, that was the mandate. Produce kids, sell them and stay in Division One. It was a mandate you couldn’t really publicize to the fans because they don’t want to hear that. They want to hear that you’re going to go to the Cup Final and win the League.

I think one of those seasons, 1977/78, was really fascinating. It’s the year Forest shocked everyone by winning the League, but midway through the season you were right up there, in the title race, and playing thrilling, attacking football.

You know, I didn’t put this in the book but there was a TV programme then, when Cloughie received some award. I was sitting watching and he said, “This shouldn’t be coming to me” - you know how he talks - “It should be going to that young man in Coventry”.

Wow.

Yeah. Our form at the time was surprising because at the beginning of the season, when the newspapers chose the two teams to go down, one of them was always Coventry City. So that was an achievement, as you say, in a different way.

It's interesting that in all those nine years at Coventry - all in the top flight - not a single player got an England call-up. The first time that happened was when you moved to Leicester and Bobby Robson picked Gary Lineker. Gary writes about how he remembers you giving him a phone call while he was watching the World Snooker. 

I remember that call, yes. It was nice to pass on some good news, rather than giving someone a bollocking.

Leicester Chairman Terry Shipman had appointed you, right?

I got to know Terry when I was at Coventry. I liked him. He was a good guy and a good chairman. He was Leicester through and through. I was lucky with the people closest to me – Terry Shipman and secretary Alan Bennett. At some clubs for some reason you don’t get on with them and you’re vulnerable in those situations. Alan Bennett was so important, like Eddie Plumley before at Coventry. When you’ve got a good guy they’re worth their weight in gold. He was a real cornerstone for me in the tough times.

There's a great bit in the book where you talk about your first training session at Coventry, with senior players just going through the motions, 'testing out the new boss', as you put it. You stopped the session and said 'If you're going to mess me about, then it'll be very easy for me to mess you about'. Though 'mess' wasn't the word you used, was it? It was something stronger. When you arrived at Leicester it was simiilar - not as dramatic, but you had to deal with the established players.

The main thing was there were players getting towards the end of their careers and they needed moving on. Eddie Kelly would have been one of those, and Youngie - Alan Young. The team needed freshening up. It wasn’t my team, it was Jock’s. Eddie and Youngie were very good players for Jock but it needed to change. In my own career things happened so quickly and I didn’t have time to moan or not moan or whatever. Some players adapt to that quicker than others. Obviously I’m not going to be their favourite manager if I’m thinking of moving them on or not playing them. 

Things didn't start too well at Filbert Street, did they?

We were worried about relegation to the Third Division. We were on that run and going nowhere. I was thinking 'If you don’t get this together you’re going to lose your job'. The mood wasn’t great, and playing at home was a problem – you were probably there yourself. The fans weren’t confident and if something went wrong it was exaggerated.  

Talking about relegation, here's a quiz question for you. How many times were either you or your father relegated, either as a player or a manager, in your whole careers?

Let me see. I don't think I was ever relegated, was I? And my father...?

He wasn't either. Neither of you were ever relegated across that seventy year period.

Gee Whizz.

It's pretty impressive.

That's another first you've told me. 

After that bad start though, in the second half of that season you went on a great run and got promotion. Was the Gerry Daly signing the turning point?

That was important, yeah. I went back to Coventry and signed him. He just responded. He was a talented player. With other clubs, if he didn’t fancy it on a particular day he might go missing but he never did that for me. He took on a responsible role and he enjoyed himself. He had licence to play to his strengths and he brought so much to the team.

After Leicester you went to Besiktas in Turkey and had that incredible success. Three titles in a row, and in the third one you went the whole season unbeaten.

We had five or six players - maybe more - that I’d have struggled to keep now. Great players. There wasn’t that movement of players out of Turkey then. A lot of them could have played in other European countries, but I didn’t have that headache. It created loyalty for the club and the country.  They were passionate about the club and about Turkey.

When you had that 'invincibles' season, Milan did the same didn't they, in Serie A, in the same season.

Yes. Again, this isn't in the book but Turkish TV set it up for me to go and meet Fabio Capello at Milan because of that. He had Rijkaard, Gullit and Van Basten and all the others. Capello wasn't that interested, I don't think, but there was a photo op - we shook hands. It was a press thing really.

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There was a lot more we talked about, including more about his Leicester City years of course, but it was covering much the same ground as his book so I haven't repeated it here. If you want the full story:

Gordon Milne: Shankly, My Dad and Me: Amazon.co.uk: Gordon Milne, Steve Younger, Gary Lineker, Mark Lawrenson: 9781801506540: Books

There was one thing in his book that left me feeling relieved - he shared my dislike of Malcolm Macdonald. I was a bit worried I'd been too hard on Supermac in the piece I wrote about the 82/83 promotion race (see below) - but Macdonald is just about the only person in the whole book that Gordon had a bad word for. 

This was the piece if you didn't see it in the autumn: