leicsmac

On the topic of consequences... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5ygplyg09ro Donald Trump's return to the White House will have a hugely negative effect on climate change action in the short-term but the longer term impact is less certain, experts say. With world leaders meeting next week for the latest UN climate talks, COP29, external, the Trump victory will be seen as a huge roadblock to progress in both cutting emissions and raising cash for developing countries. The US president-elect is a known climate sceptic who has called efforts to boost green energy a "scam". This will have some consequences. How surprising.

And be ready to be held accountable for every drop of blood spilled when the consequences of electing such leaders comes about. Which it will.

Pretty much both of this, really. Sometimes racism is racism and bigotry is bigotry, and it should no longer be casually accepted. Of course that's going to lead to pushback. Quite frankly, in parts of the US women have been treated as chattel of husbands and fathers, anyone nonwhite as subhuman, and LGBT people as abominations for too long. The only thing that differentiates some of the fundie right over there from the Taliban is what the women are allowed to wear - and yet we're told to understand the sentiment these people have. The only thing I'll add is a sentence I've read before: "Your concerns may be legitimate, but are you sure neofascists are your answer?" Edit: of course people voted for the man for other reasons than those above (money), but that still plays into their hands, and history doesn't give a free pass to them, either.

I have to ask again though - where is the threat that merits such increased spending on killing - sorry, "defence" - especially when public services in the UK are already running on empty and there's a global threat out there that already needs addressing. That a better world for everyone was at least possible, yes. You don't see that with Trump, not for everyone, not even close. At all. If we're going by that metric, then every president back to Lyndon Johnson is likewise a war criminal, so I'm not sure of the point being driven at here.

Curious as to what the quid pro quo would be for the members then, though, other than soothing the man's gargantuan ego.

"Over the last few weeks and through Election Day, millions of Americans cast their votes – not just for president, but for leaders at every level. Now the results are in, and we want to congratulate President Trump and Senator Vance on their victory. This is obviously not the outcome we had hoped for, given our profound disagreements with the Republican ticket on a whole host of issues. But living in a democracy is about recognizing that our point of view won’t always win out, and being willing to accept the peaceful transfer of power. Michelle and I could not be prouder of Vice President Harris and Governor Walz – two extraordinary public servants who ran a remarkable campaign. And we will always be grateful to the staff and volunteers who poured their heart and soul into electing public servants they truly believed in. As I said on the campaign trail, America has been through a lot over the last few years – from a historic pandemic and price hikes resulting from the pandemic, to rapid change and the feeling a lot of folks have that, no matter how hard they work, treading water is the best they can do. Those conditions have created headwinds for democratic incumbents around the world, and last night showed that America is not immune. The good news is that these problems are solvable – but only if we listen to each other, and only if we abide by the core constitutional principles and democratic norms that made this country great. In a country as big and diverse as ours, we won’t always see eye-to-eye on everything. But progress requires us to extend good faith and grace – even to people with whom we deeply disagree. That’s how we’ve come this far, and it’s how we’ll keep building a country that is more fair and more just, more equal and more free." Barack Obama. ... how did the US go from that to Trump?

Well, given Trump will stop all conflict with Russia by giving Putin whatever he wants when he wants it, surely there's no need to spend more on military budgets.

It's difficult, isn't it?

And that leaves people who genuinely care about the future caught between their desire to help, and fatalism that it won't do any good anyway. The words "reasonable" and "largely" do a lot of heavy lifting there, I would think, more's the pity. Again, especially concerning the future you want to leave to those kids. Covid was just the tiniest of tastes of what's out there. This is exactly right. And it breeds a society that is in no way healthy and is given to short term self interested decision making. It's an explanation, but it won't suffice as an excuse. The system requires a fundamental change. Precarious is exactly right. Which leads into the decision making issues described above. That's because of the emphasis of value on the material there. Like I said, not healthy.

And how do you explain the state of the world that may be left to them?

I don't, not anymore, but people I care for, vulnerable and marginalised people, do. I just hope their blood isn't the price of cheaper whatever.

....I envy people that can reduce their worlds to just themselves, those around them and the things they directly control. It seems a happier existence. I don't know how to do that, or even that I should even if I could.

Or the future of the biosphere. Or being stuck in a lifetime of debt because you got injured or sick and it's that or die and pass the debt on to your next of kin.

I think Cory Booker might be worth another look.

This honesty should be appreciated in fairness, most folks in this discussion have tiptoed around their motivations regarding self interest.

There is precious little sense of community and solidarity over there even when "gas prices" are fair (barring a few remarkable examples). I doubt there ever was. Individualism rules Supreme. And that would be fine except for the human price it costs.

It hardly takes rocket science to figure the economy was the key fighting point here. The real meat of the matter is exactly why people prized (and prize) that over other matters and what exactly that means. Otherwise it just becomes as simple as "I'll pay you to vote for me".

Definitely anomalous. Political science studies are going to have a field day with the last ten or so years and with the next few. Fascinating in its own way.

James Carville really had it right, didn't he?

I wonder what the general international response will be? Possible the only leaders to really welcome the outcome will be Putin and Netanyahu.

Some of us have lived in the US, and understand the pull of self interest. We just didn't think that it was so strong. He has. You can bet those behind him looking for a favour haven't. Besides, it would hardly be out of form for the guy to turn around and do it anyway in spite of saying he wouldn't, would it?

This kind of apathy, or voter suppression on a rather large scale, or a mix of the two. It'll take a while, if ever, to really find out which.

I'd be interested to meet a climate scientist that voted for him except in the most extenuating of circumstances. Edit: ditto any space scientist that has ideas of space being explored as a global commons and not exploited as a new front in a future Cold War.

Interesting numbers all told: - around 20 million less voters than 2020 - 3 million less Repub voters - 17 million less Dem voters Make of that rather large plunge in voting enthusiasm what you will.

Pretty much. And look where that leaves everyone, both "stupid" and "smart", in the end. Welcome to the world where no one is invalidated, but no one is right.