leicsmac

Was it a meticulously planned and orchestrated coup attempt by the hand of Trump? No. Was the idea of a coup put in the heads of those people by Trump (and others), that they then acted upon and could have succeeded in their aim? Yes. Is there really that much distinction (and therefore difference in accountability) to be drawn between those two things, given the similarity of intent and outcome had they succeeded?

I tend to like Reuters for reportage these days, they just report rather than adding much commentary. I hope you're right. There's more than most people realise at stake here. I think that depends on whether or not the preservation of life is a political outcome or not. I wish I could share this sentiment about what Trump is in charge of being neutralised so easily and without much collateral damage as that.

You know, a year or two ago I would have agreed 100% with this. The Beeb, among others, has the obligation to fight the good fight. However, and perhaps it's a sign that I'm becoming too jaded, I'm increasingly beginning to believe that it simply doesn't matter if the Beeb or anyone else is telling the truth about people like Trump - they will lie anyway, people will buy and are buying it, and the results are as you see. Events of the past couple of years are a testament to that. So, what exactly can be done to address the very clear and present threat that the ideology he drives, that controls or is looking to seize control in a number of places (including the UK) with all the consequences that entails? Genuine question, because like you I believed the truth could be a defence against that ideology, but now I'm not so sure at all.

You can't really separate this individual matter from the wider context in this case, though. See above. Which is a major reason why this isn't a big an issue as the Telegraph will no doubt try to make it out to be.

... and then there were those who were specifically looking for the chamber where the election results were being confirmed by members of Congress. With zipties and weapons.

*plays MGS2 Colonel speech again* "The different cardinal truths neither clash nor mesh, no one is invalidated but no one is right. Not even natural selection can take place here. The world is being engulfed in "Truth". ....And this is the way the world ends. Not with a BANG, but with a whimper."

That lack of trust is happening anyway and I'm not sure it's a majority anymore, in that order. Far too many people are already getting their "truth" from entirely untruthful sources; the genie has long since left that bottle. So while I get the argument being made here, I can't bring myself to clutch my pearls too much at this one and I'm certainly not going to blame the Beeb for "making" people seek convenient untruths that they're seeking already due to their own self interest. The sentiment that Trump drives needs to be stopped. By whatever means short of actual blatant illegality necessary. The stakes for the world are too high for anything else. Fighting honestly is fine and the best way - but it doesn't help you at all if you lose.

I know, right?

Well, assuming all of this is on the level... His actions during and after make it absolutely, unequivocally clear that Trump had no issue with the insurrection attempt (not riot, these people wanted to overthrow the results of a free and fair election that Trump still falsely maintains was neither), and the only thing he was sorry about was that it failed. The only thing that the Beeb have perhaps done wrong here is an element of framing the guilty party to make them appear exactly as despicable as they really are. Now, as an organisation bound to the idea of "going high when all others go low" that's not really cricket from them, but then fighting the cesspool of death-worshipping falsehood-driven fascism that man has tapped into, enabled and driven into a position where it is affecting an awful lot of innocent people, with 100% honesty hasn't really gone that well so far, has it?

And then those people being hammered are also being gaslit and manipulated into blaming entirely the wrong people for their economic strife.

To back up Alf's point: However, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would say, when questioned, that violent crime has decreased. I think that answer to that is obvious: the digital era we now live in allows us to know more about what's happening than ever before, and so we are flooded with news of criminal acts we'd otherwise never have known about, thus producing the perception that such events are widespread. Sadly, it's another area where perception appears to surpass facts, and in fact the anxiety from it may end up fueling crime, as people's trust in other people is eroded almost entirely for no real good reason.

It doesn't even look like they're sorry for that, more like "yes, we're doing it, yes we're totally OK with doing it, yes, we're going to lie about doing it, and no, you can't prove that we are doing it, so piss off and let us get on with our violations".* Edit: * "... or we'll use our bleeding edge digital tech and PR machine to ruin your life to the very best of our ability. And we're good at that, too."

Especially the part where the higher-ups think violating the Geneva Convention is fine just as long as they deny doing it.

On a different note: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq50j5vwny6o A rather darkly fascinating tale of how geopolitics and academia can collide, sometimes nastily.

Social Darwinism sadly appears to be on the rise again, yes. Can blame the fool individualist Americans for that one, again.

Still a little bit embarrassing to lose a tournament that has been arranged in pretty much every possible way short of illegality for you to win and when you have arguably the most talented team, though. Especially when the stadium recently bears the name of the head man who then has to hand over the trophy to the Aussies.

... as comparative insults towards the great MoN go, that's a pretty massive one tbh.

Ha, well, compared to most parts of it this forum is an outpost of sane and reasoned discussion. Which (looking at any match thread) should tell you just how toxic the rest of it is.

I'm referring to the riots that happened after that, which were IMO largely organised, driven and influenced by social media. In the current era, it doesn't appear to matter if something is true or not - it is incredibly easy to stir people into a cauldron of righteous fury that can then end up with people getting hurt. And the events of summer 2024 are only one example of that. That all being said, I don't envy anyone trying to solve that problem - places like China clearly have their solution but it hardly looks optimal.

The same seen in the summer of 2024. Only perhaps worse.

As an addendum to this whole sorry business, it's proven, yet again, just how much of a cesspit social media can be and how that could result in really damaging consequences.

As much as this is true, unfortunately in the current climate it's very difficult to separate news like this from various agendas on the topic. I agree about not caring which demographic box a violent nutjob fits into, but so many other people do, and that affects all of us.

And sometimes that can be erroneous, and that error has consequences, as could have been shown here.

Yep. And thus we see the dangers of jumping to conclusions.

The likelihood looks that way, but I guess we'll find out in due course. I would hope, however, that it's worrying that the hotheads appear to be steering things on all sides right now.