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The good thing about us being so shit is he's going to get ample opportunity to demonstrate how good he is at making saves as well as playing out. He is going to go far.

He can't win no you're absolutely right about that

Maybe you're right but if that is the case, what is going to change with time? The squad isn't going to be any different until January and possibly not even then, and if the problem is that the players aren't up to standard then surely you would want to get a better coach than Steve Cooper to get them playing above their level.

That is part of what makes it so annoying. I would genuinely love him to do well here because after Rodgers the egomaniac and Enzo who I really liked but was clearly a proper football pervert, he does just seem like a pretty normal, decent guy doing his best, and also it would obviously be very funny for him to get binned by Forest and then take us back above them. It's just a shame he's not very good.

I would have no real issue with that style if I thought it was the best use of our players. Pragmatism is not inherently about being cautious and defensive, it means doing what makes the most sense with the tools you have at your disposal. We have ended up with what is arguably quite a top-heavy squad with a lot of creative, skilful players and even most of our better defensive players - Ricardo, Vestergaard, Winks, Hermansen etc. - are probably better with the ball than without. He's setting up like we've got a Dyche-esque squad of hard-running cloggers like Ryan Yates but despite our best attempts to build him one with the likes of Ayew and Skipp (harsh on the latter maybe) I can't see that we do, and the result is we look properly toothless without really looking solid enough defensively to make it worthwhile.

Just needs more time though doesn't he? After all, the longer he spends with these players the more impressive we look. Ideally he gets at least another window so we can bring in some more experienced, Premier League proven bargains. You've got to give him time because time is the magic ingredient that unfailingly turns shit managers into good ones. You can't sack him now, give him time!

It's fair enough to think he's shit but get behind him when he's actually playing for us, isn't it?

Personally if I were Top I'd have a competent director of football and ideally also some sort of succession plan in place to help me make that decision

Charisma in terms of giving funny soundbites in press conferences and showing PASHUN on the touchline I personally don't care about at all, but they need sufficient force of personality to convince players to buy into their ideas and maintain authority over the squad. I don't think it's fair to judge whether or not Cooper is capable of that based on what he says in interviews or his demeanour on the touchline, much less his appearance.

Per FBref we are 19th for xG, shots, touches in the attacking third and touches in the box. 18th for shots on target and passes into the box. Dead last for carries into the box and the highest average shot distance in the league.

Oh I completely see the point. If there does come a time where Alves is playing regularly for us, it will almost certainly be long after Cooper has left and after an at best underwhelming start he could do without us getting embarrassed. I'm just more keen for our brightest young talents to get real opportunities where it makes sense - particularly if they're not going to go out on loan - than I am for Cooper to buy himself what, another week if that? Losing would obviously not help his case but if we go another five winless in the league then nobody is going to be saying no you can't sack him because he's guided us to the third round of the Carabo Cup. I've said this elsewhere so apologies for repeating myself but there is always going to be a reason not to give youth a chance, always something important we're competing for that we need to prioritise instead. If we can't risk starting him in this game then I have to assume the same is going to apply for every league and cup game. We then get to the end of the season and unless he gets a loan in January he'll have spent it watching our games from the stands and playing with/against academy kids he's outgrown, having already had his development interrupted by that Wolves thug. It just seems like a waste to me. When I say we don't give a shit, I mean the club are plainly going to have their priorities this season and I'm assuming it goes staying up, then a huge gaping chasm to the FA Cup, then another chasm to the Carabao. If/when he gets the sack it's going to be because we're in serious danger of getting relegated, not because our reserves lost to Walsall. You mention the narrative he isn't right for the job but one of the few supposed plus points behind his appointment was his previous work with young players - if he'd rather give cup minutes to Ayew and Choudhury than Alves then his pros column is looking extraordinarily bare. Besides which, I'm pretty sure the decision makers at the club couldn't care much less about our opinions on anything, especially not something as important as binning a manager.

I think getting our best young players minutes and experience is a necessity, not a luxury. If he doesn't want to chuck the likes of Alves into a relegation six pointer then fair enough but if we're not going to give them starts against League Two teams in the early rounds of a cup competition I'm assuming we currently don't really give a shit about, when are we?

I would be more inclined to share that position if I thought the next 5 games were likely to tell me anything about him that the first 5, or his managerial career to date, haven't already. I'd love to imagine that he uses the theoretically easy run post-Arsenal to get some wins on the board and generate some real momentum but if we can't win a home game against - or really even look any better than - an injury-hit, confidence-sapped, totally crap Everton, I'm not sure I see it. 10 games is a fair old chunk of the season and my view is that we will have wasted it by giving it to Cooper. Ultimately I think that with very few exceptions, managers are short-term concerns and consequently my thinking is: is he realistically the best manager for us at this moment and if not, move on - maybe that's too ruthless a mindset and obviously I don't expect a new appointment after every defeat but broadly speaking that's how it seems to be. Change "the best manager for us" for "the best job for me" and I imagine that's how Cooper or any other manager will be thinking. We don't owe one another any loyalty. If people rate him and think he'll come good then though I don't agree, I find it easier to understand that position than "no he's not very good but we can't get rid just yet" which I accept isn't what you in particular are saying.

Interestingly, nobody who thinks he needs to be given time seems to believe he is actually a particularly good manager or will necessarily do anything positive with that time, more that he is a manager and all managers need to be given time, essentially out of courtesy. It's like we have to wait until we cross an invisible line in terms of games wasted until we can get rid of him, when it will suddenly arbitrarily become acceptable. You can't sack a manager after x games but x+1games? Yeah go ahead.

He's so bad and there's not really anything to suggest he's going to get any better but nonetheless we've got to GIVE HIM TIME just in case he does. What's the point? I don't know if it's a British thing and our attitudes just haven't caught up yet, like how we were really weirdly suspicious of sporting/technical directors up until fairly recently, but we badly need to get over this idea that sacking a manager is some monumental thing and the ultimate dishonour you can bestow on someone. Steve Cooper is not going to be made homeless and destitute if he loses his job, and he'll probably get another one fairly quickly at a level he is actually comfortable at. He's not very good, someone else could almost certainly do a better job, let them do it - no hard feelings, everyone moves on. Managers get sacked, it's fine. Worrying about our precious reputation and letting our fear of people pointing and laughing at us get in the way of making the obviously correct decision is how we ended up letting Rodgers sink us.

No hard feelings Steve but please can you **** off, you are shit

What a result. Can't see many teams taking points off them this season, they are a top quality outfit. Good work Steve

Not if Steve Cooper has anything to do with it

Probably not? Our Premier League winning captain was a Forest academy graduate and their longest serving player when he joined us, and one of our greatest ever managers won the European Cup with them. I'm sure there is a minority who hold it against him but I think most people who have a problem with Cooper are less concerned about him having managed them and more about him not being very good at this level.

I also thought that most of our really good performances last season came against better teams - Southampton home and away, Leeds away (arguably our best performance despite somehow contriving to lose), Bournemouth away in the cup - and the games we really struggled in were mainly against bus parkers. I've no doubt we'd have been on the end of some hammerings along the way but I think we'd probably have been OK if he was given the same sort of backing as Cooper. For all that they are spoken about as being at opposite ends of the pragmatism scale, Enzo for me did a much better job of actually utilising the strengths of his squad than Cooper has in his admittedly short time. That is maybe more reflective of the fact that as far as a lot of people are concerned, pragmatism = none of this tippy tappy nonsense, get it launched rather than what it actually means.

To add to this, the periods in which we are "competitive" usually come when we abandon his plan of getting everyone behind the ball and hoping for the best in favour of actually trying to attack and get our creative players on the ball in decent positions. When we indulge his conservative instincts e.g. the first hour against Spurs, the 5 at the back Coady masterclass against Palace, the Villa game until Operation Keep It Tight had left us two down and we threw on our actual footballers, we've looked properly crap.

But then we might not have been able to afford to give Bobby Reid a three year deal

That last 25 minutes or so was absolutely rank from Spurs. Aimlessly serving up crosses for Gabriel and Saliba to swat away.

Tranmere, where he started out looking very rusty but was ultimately fine, and?

The consensus when he came seemed to be that no, he's not very good but with the points deduction looming we couldn't do any better. Now there's no points deduction, what exactly is the case against binning him other than it being a bit impolite? Nobody can seriously believe he is the best available option.