Duckenfield on trial

[David Hankey]

Finally after God knows how many years ex Chief Inspector Duckenfield of South Yorkshire Polce is to stand trial for his part in the deaths of 95 football supporters. Many questions remain outstanding not least as to why it has taken so long for this individual to face justice. No doubt it will all end with another whitewash.

[yorkie1999]

8 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

Finally after God knows how many years ex Chief Inspector Duckenfield of South Yorkshire Polce is to stand trial for his part in the deaths of 95 football supporters. Many questions remain outstanding not least as to why it has taken so long for this individual to face justice. No doubt it will all end with another whitewash.

He's no more guilty of the 96 deaths than the FA are, or the chap that opened the gate, or swfc, guilty of instigating a cover-up yes, but not guilty of manslaughter. 

Edited 15 January 2019 by yorkie1999

[Mike Oxlong]

27 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

Finally after God knows how many years ex Chief Inspector Duckenfield of South Yorkshire Polce is to stand trial for his part in the deaths of 95 football supporters. Many questions remain outstanding not least as to why it has taken so long for this individual to face justice. No doubt it will all end with another whitewash.

I bet he hopes you’re not on the jury David. 

 

Open mind, innocent till proven guilty and all that mullarkey. 

Edited 15 January 2019 by Mike Oxlong

[LiberalFox]

If he was a social worker or a junior doctor he'd probably be found guilty but policemen are rarely convicted.  

[David Hankey]

1 hour ago, Mike Oxlong said:

I bet he hopes you’re not on the jury David. 

 

Open mind, innocent till proven guilty and all that mullarkey. 

And I no doubt bet he's glad there's no-one from Liverpool on the jury nor people who support that Club!! The fact of the matter is he directed Gate C to be opened to alleviate the crush outside the ground without realising the consequences this action would cause inside. Ironically, because of that tragedy all seater stadiums came in and now, amazingly, standing areas are being called for by some!!

[David Hankey]

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

He's no more guilty of the 96 deaths than the FA are, or the chap that opened the gate, or swfc, guilty of instigating a cover-up yes, but not guilty of manslaughter. 

The chap who opened the gate did so after the request to do so was made by Duckenfield. Was he going to turn round and refuse that instruction?

[Mike Oxlong]

15 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

And I no doubt bet he's glad there's no-one from Liverpool on the jury nor people who support that Club!! The fact of the matter is he directed Gate C to be opened to alleviate the crush outside the ground without realising the consequences this action would cause inside. Ironically, because of that tragedy all seater stadiums came in and now, amazingly, standing areas are being called for by some!!

I was posting on your comment “No doubt it will end with another whitewash” which suggests to me that is how you would view a not guilty verdict. 

 

I have no idea at present whether his actions were reckless or criminally negligent but am content to leave that decision to due process. 

[Guest MattP]

I get the feeling some won't be happy until someone swings for this. 

 

Seems a politically motivated witch hunt but we'll leave it to due process.

 

Given the inquest into Hillsborough was only won on a majority verdict though I doubt you'll get a unanimous conviction in court on someone for asking for a gate to be opened under pressure.

[Mike Oxlong]

1 minute ago, MattP said:

I get the feeling some won't be happy until someone swings for this. 

 

Seems a politically motivated witch hunt but we'll leave it to due process.

 

Given the inquest into Hillsborough was only won on a majority verdict though I doubt you'll get a unanimous conviction in court on someone for asking for a gate to be opened under pressure.

Only need 10-2 for a verdict

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Mike Oxlong said:

Only need 10-2 for a verdict

Didn't know that, I thought it was unanimous but a judge could instruct they can take 11-1.

 

It was 7-2 in favour of unlawful killing (in Warrington) on Hillsborough.

[yorkie1999]

22 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

The chap who opened the gate did so after the request to do so was made by Duckenfield. Was he going to turn round and refuse that instruction?

Dunno, all I know is if I worked at a football club opening and shutting gates and there were 5000 odd people trying to get in and had experience of the problems that hillsborough had had in previous years, I’d have thought hang on a mo. 

[yorkie1999]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

I get the feeling some won't be happy until someone swings for this. 

 

Seems a politically motivated witch hunt but we'll leave it to due process.

 

Given the inquest into Hillsborough was only won on a majority verdict though I doubt you'll get a unanimous conviction in court on someone for asking for a gate to be opened under pressure.

I get the feeling that the powers that be want someone to swing for it as well, just to put an end to it

[Mike Oxlong]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

Didn't know that, I thought it was unanimous but a judge could instruct they can take 11-1.

 

It was 7-2 in favour of unlawful killing (in Warrington) on Hillsborough.

Criminal trial - first point is to aim for unanimous verdict. 

 

If after deliberations it becomes apparent that this is not possible the judge will direct the jury that he will accept a majority verdict which can be 11-1 or 10-2. 

 

If a 10-2 either way can’t be reached then it’s a hung jury. 

 

7-2 sounds like the inquest jury  ? 

Edited 15 January 2019 by Mike Oxlong

[yorkie1999]

37 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

And I no doubt bet he's glad there's no-one from Liverpool on the jury nor people who support that Club!! The fact of the matter is he directed Gate C to be opened to alleviate the crush outside the ground without realising the consequences this action would cause inside. Ironically, because of that tragedy all seater stadiums came in and now, amazingly, standing areas are being called for by some!!

Different times and different controls in getting into grounds and more importantly different attitudes of the police towards football fans! Don’t forget, back in the day, we were scumbags in their eyes.

Edited 15 January 2019 by yorkie1999

[stripeyfox]

It's taken almost 30 years for Duckenfield to face justice, but it is worth reiterating some of the points which lead to the disaster

 

Duckenfield was new in post. He had never policed an event at Hillsborough and by his own admission, failed to read the safety plan or familiarise himself with the layout of the stadium prior to the match day

 

He froze when faced with the build up of supporters outside the turnstiles. If he had been familiar with the layout he would have ordered the closure of the gate to the tunnel to the middle pens and posted officers to direct fans to the empty pens to the left and right,

 

After realising he ****ed up and whilst Liverpool supporters were fighting to save the lives of those crushed on the Leppings Lane terrace in the absence of any meaningful emergency response, Duckenfield then told a bare faced lie to Graham Kelly, Chief Executive of the FA - a lie which has prevailed in the minds of those who can't be arsed to read the real events of that day.

 

Crowds are dangerous. Football fans often drink too much. It is the responsibility of the police and the stadium authorities to help to keep us safe

 

Duckenfield, in my view, is culpable of manslaughter. It won't bring anyone back. He himself is an old man now. It is 30 years too late. 

 

 

[LiberalFox]

It's hard to judge 30 years on from the event. It seems the problems on that day were largely a result of poor attention to health and safety. Should we be relying on the police to act correctly under pressure in order to prevent mass death? 

[David Hankey]

1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

Dunno, all I know is if I worked at a football club opening and shutting gates and there were 5000 odd people trying to get in and had experience of the problems that hillsborough had had in previous years, I’d have thought hang on a mo. 

I have bothered to read up and follow this over the years whereas as you obviously haven't read any of the previous reports on this tragedy. It was not the guy "opening and shutting" the gate who is responsible he was only working on the instruction of the person who is now in the dock. 

[David Hankey]

2 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

It's hard to judge 30 years on from the event. It seems the problems on that day were largely a result of poor attention to health and safety. Should we be relying on the police to act correctly under pressure in order to prevent mass death? 

Yes, we should. They are trained professionals there to keep the public safe and Duckenfield did not. The passage of time should not detract the crime!!

[yorkie1999]

10 minutes ago, David Hankey said:

I have bothered to read up and follow this over the years whereas as you obviously haven't read any of the previous reports on this tragedy. It was not the guy "opening and shutting" the gate who is responsible he was only working on the instruction of the person who is now in the dock. 

No shit Sherlock. Shame you didn’t read the context it was originally written in

Edited 15 January 2019 by yorkie1999

[David Hankey]

28 minutes ago, stripeyfox said:

It's taken almost 30 years for Duckenfield to face justice, but it is worth reiterating some of the points which lead to the disaster

 

Duckenfield was new in post. He had never policed an event at Hillsborough and by his own admission, failed to read the safety plan or familiarise himself with the layout of the stadium prior to the match day

 

He froze when faced with the build up of supporters outside the turnstiles. If he had been familiar with the layout he would have ordered the closure of the gate to the tunnel to the middle pens and posted officers to direct fans to the empty pens to the left and right,

 

After realising he ****ed up and whilst Liverpool supporters were fighting to save the lives of those crushed on the Leppings Lane terrace in the absence of any meaningful emergency response, Duckenfield then told a bare faced lie to Graham Kelly, Chief Executive of the FA - a lie which has prevailed in the minds of those who can't be arsed to read the real events of that day.

 

Crowds are dangerous. Football fans often drink too much. It is the responsibility of the police and the stadium authorities to help to keep us safe

 

Duckenfield, in my view, is culpable of manslaughter. It won't bring anyone back. He himself is an old man now. It is 30 years too late. 

 

 

Agree with most of this which is in the public domain, however, the fact remains he ordered Gate C to be opened and that single act was to be what led to the tagic consequences. I appreciate none of this will bring anyone back but the passage of time, which is not the victim's families fault, should not diminish this terrible tragedy.

 

 

 

 

[David Hankey]

3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

No shit Sherlock. Shame you didn’t read the context it was originally written in

My guess is you weren't born when this event happened considering your posts.

[yorkie1999]

Just now, David Hankey said:

My guess is you weren't born when this event happened considering your posts.

Wrong. I also remember why pens were there in the first place

[stripeyfox]

8 hours ago, David Hankey said:

Agree with most of this which is in the public domain, however, the fact remains he ordered Gate C to be opened and that single act was to be what led to the tagic consequences. I appreciate none of this will bring anyone back but the passage of time, which is not the victim's families fault, should not diminish this terrible tragedy.

 

 

 

 

No I agree. The real tragedy is that it has taken so long to get to this point. Very little of the information which came out in the inquest was "new". Most of it had been published for decades.

 

Opening Gate C would have been a reasonable contingency plan to alleviate pressure outside Leppings Lane provided that the gate to the tunnel was closed first. Duckenfield's failure to familiarise himself with the stadium layout and read the safety plan meant that he took the decision in isolation.

 

 

[stripeyfox]

8 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

It's hard to judge 30 years on from the event. It seems the problems on that day were largely a result of poor attention to health and safety. Should we be relying on the police to act correctly under pressure in order to prevent mass death? 

Disagree. Yes, H&S has changed a lot, because of Hillsborough and we now have safe stadia. But Hillsborough was more than capable of hosting the match, as it had done many times before. The deaths were caused by poor policing. 

[David Hankey]

This miscreant, Duckenfield, is now saying the gate had been "forced". Well it certainly wasn't Police forced!! Put yourself in the place of a fan who had travelled all the way to Hillsborough with a ticket and you were to miss out on such an imprtant fixture. The fact still remain that Duckenfield was out of his depth, hadn't a clue and not only witnessed but was the single cause of the greatest loss of life we have seen in English football. The prat stated "the match should have been abandoned but but he didn't want to make the announcement at that point as had a lot of angry people and it could cause disturbances". So, allow the deaths instead, what a bloody muppet!!