We need a change of attitude and belief

[davieG]

How long ago it seems, when you read so much nonsense that is posted here, but was it only this summer that we saw Italy win the World Cup? Where belief came from their defensive abilities? And sitting in their own half, mastering defensive play, was at the heart of their game.

Well I remember them doing a fair amount of attacking and looked to me like they had a lot of belief in themselves, I don't believe they were considered the 'best' team or were even favourites to get very far and where you get the idea that having this belief and playing for a win means throwing caution to the wind I don't know. what I do know is that we had no chance of winning on saturday because we didn't believe that we could.

So frankly I'm not sure what your point is and if you're going to say people are posting nonsense perhaps you could cite a few examples.

[davieG]

I'd agree with Babylon here. There is much I'd agree with Thracian about, and he does put forward interesting ideas. But you often have to plough through too many "the kids are the solution", "only through attack will we find salvation" and increasingly bizarre conspiracy theories to get to them.

Well you have a choice take the rough with the smooth or nothing at all, it's your choice and hardly warrants bleating about.

[Smudge]

Having belief in yourself doesn't mean attack, attack, attack, it means don't defend, defend, defend. Play to win, not in a cavalier way but in a determined, forthright way. The team will always need improving by replacing individuals but what should be consistent and embedded in the team all the while is belief. Listening to the manager, the players and seeing how they continually fall back and try to defend their half of the pitch makes me believe they haven't got that belief.

I think you are absolutely right. Your statements are well constructed and fair.

Being content with mediocrity is worse than being mediocre. That's probably unfair but I sure wish Kelly would give us some insight into his strategy because he's got me totally confused.

I have just seen today's OS interview with him and I feel he is being less than straightforward with the supporters, in fact he gave out no information at all. Won't talk about the last game and Hull will be tough, hardly stirring stuff.

[Scow]

One defeat and there's an air of impending doom.

Did we see much of this prior to the West Brom game? Not really based on what I've read. It's the classic case of over reacting to a defeat - conversely, the same happens to when we win.

Relegation one week, play-offs the next. Midtable sounds about right then.

We hold out for 83 minutes against a very good side, and then one own goal later, we're staring defeat in the face. Would anyone have complained with a point against them? Not many, apart from perhaps Thracian, who would still insist on advocating gung-ho attacking football against opponents (who are clearly better than us) who place onus on pushing men forward to appease the fans.

We had a number of opportunities throughout the game where Fryatt and O'Grady could have made more of the situations we had created, as a result of counter attacking football. Unfortunately, neither had the composure to convert the promsing build up play.

We have to be realistic about where we stand. We pushed ourselves over budget with the summer signings, so it shows we have very little to play with. If we finish midtable, that represents progress for us. We've missed the boat during the past 2 seasons with the parachute payments being awarded. We now have to accept that the players we have will do well to achieve a play-off place.

We have a solid defence.

The midfield is weak though - we lack legs, creativity, pace and goals from there. Weso and Porter may rectify that to some extent.

The strikers are capable of getting the goals needed to secure a midtable spot. I feel Hume and Fryatt will re-establish their prolific partnership at some stage. O'Grady seems a very useful option, although he needs to prove he can score goals at this level.

By no means a great situation to be in, but one that we have to accept as there's very little that can be done to change it.

[Babylon]

One defeat and there's an air of impending doom.

We did see much of this prior to the West Brom game? Not really based on what I've read. It's the classic case of over reacting to a defeat - conversely, the same happens to when we win.

Relegation one week, play-offs the next. Midtable sounds about right then.

We hold out for 83 minutes against a very good side, and then one own goal later, we're staring defeat in the face. Would anyone have complained with a point against them? Not many, apart from perhaps Thracian, who would still insist on advocating gung-ho attacking football against opponents (who are clearly better than us) who place onus on pushing men forward to appease the fans.

Well said Scoweh. Said everything I couldn't be arsed to say.

[Swedging]

Well I remember them doing a fair amount of attacking and looked to me like they had a lot of belief in themselves, I don't believe they were considered the 'best' team or were even favourites to get very far and where you get the idea that having this belief and playing for a win means throwing caution to the wind I don't know. what I do know is that we had no chance of winning on saturday because we didn't believe that we could.

So frankly I'm not sure what your point is and if you're going to say people are posting nonsense perhaps you could cite a few examples.

Your's here wouldn't be a bad example. Not just for misreading what I posted to go off on one, but because we could have nicked that game, had the luck run further our way.

[davieG]

One defeat and there's an air of impending doom.

Did we see much of this prior to the West Brom game? Not really based on what I've read. It's the classic case of over reacting to a defeat - conversely, the same happens to when we win.

Relegation one week, play-offs the next. Midtable sounds about right then.

We hold out for 83 minutes against a very good side, and then one own goal later, we're staring defeat in the face. Would anyone have complained with a point against them? Not many, apart from perhaps Thracian, who would still insist on advocating gung-ho attacking football against opponents (who are clearly better than us) who place onus on pushing men forward to appease the fans.

We had a number of opportunities throughout the game where Fryatt and O'Grady could have made more of the situations we had created, as a result of counter attacking football. Unfortunately, neither had the composure to convert the promsing build up play.

We have to be realistic about where we stand. We pushed ourselves over budget with the summer signings, so it shows we have very little to play with. If we finish midtable, that represents progress for us. We've missed the boat during the past 2 seasons with the parachute payments being awarded. We now have to accept that the players we have will do well to achieve a play-off place.

We have a solid defence.

The midfield is weak though - we lack legs, creativity, pace and goals from there. Weso and Porter may rectify that to some extent.

The strikers are capable of getting the goals needed to secure a midtable spot. I feel Hume and Fryatt will re-establish their prolific partnership at some stage. O'Grady seems a very useful option, although he needs to prove he can score goals at this level.

By no means a great situation to be in, but one that we have to accept as there's very little that can be done to change it.

That's it though it's not about one defeat, as i said in the original post the last time we won away was when we had to or get relegated, we went to Millwall with one aim in mind that was to win the game. Since then that attitude has changed - we've now not only not won away for 6 games we haven't scored in the last 4 and haven't looked like doing either. You actually state we held them for 83 minutes sure we did, more importantly we matched thme for 45 minutes, but then we gave up, not only that, with the substitutions we made we gave out a clear signal that we had given up and all pretence at trying to win disappeared. Losing wasn't the problem capitulating was. I've no illusions over where we will finish in an optimistic mood I put 12th.

As I also stated when we got promoted with MON we didn't have a team that anyone with any sense would have predicted a top ten finish, but we did, not because we had the ability but because we had the attitude, I'm not harking and wishing MON was still here, there are lots of managers who can instil belief, RK can and did last season when we were in the shit but he's not doing it now.

[davieG]

Your's here wouldn't be a bad example. Not just for misreading what I posted to go off on one, but because we could have nicked that game, had the luck run further our way.

Well I've always been educated to believe that misunderstanding usually stems from a bad explanation in the first place but I'll take the critscism, by the way I wasn't going off on one I was responding in a considered and structured way.

[Scow]

Since then that attitude has changed - we've now not only not won away for 6 games we haven't scored in the last 4 and haven't looked like doing either.

West Brom 0-2

Coventry 0-0

Luton 0-2

Southampton 0-2

Coventry 1-1

Norwich 1-2

I agree with you to an extent, but those are not easy places to pick up points. But I'm focused on this season, and the results and performances have been mixed.

Luton was poor, no excuse.

We should have beat Coventry, and we certainly had the chances to do that.

We were comfortable at West Brom until the OG.

It's only 3 games and I wouldn't worry at this stage. Including last seasons stats will seem to support your argument, but they are two different seasons.

Judge the team once we've played a significant number of games away from home. Unfortunately, we have some further tough trips to Sunderland, Birmingham and Leeds respectively, but I'm quietely confident they'll be an improvement goal scoring wise.

You actually state we held them for 83 minutes sure we did, more importantly we matched thme for 45 minutes, but then we gave up, not only that, with the substitutions we made we gave out a clear signal that we had given up and all pretence at trying to win disappeared. Losing wasn't the problem capitulating was. I've no illusions over where we will finish in an optimistic mood I put 12th

I agree that subbing Porter didn't seem the most ambitious, but you need to remember that this was only his 4th professional game, and we have a number of games coming up in a short space of time. We can't afford to burn him out. I can see Kelly's thinking behind it, but it ultimately backfired on us. Stearman on for Low was the same sub as Southend - but again, not many complained about that. In fact, a number of people wanted that happening from the start.

As I also stated when we got promoted with MON we didn't have a team that anyone with any sense would have predicted a top ten finish, but we did, not because we had the ability but because we had the attitude, I'm not harking and wishing MON was still here, there are lots of managers who can instil belief, RK can and did last season when we were in the shit but he's not doing it now.

MON was a one off who made inspired players to perform beyond their supposed abilities. There's very few of him about.

Kelly is a novice and is learning all the time. We did what was needed last season, which I think some of that was down to Ray Graydon. It's too early to judge how it's likely to pan out until we're a good 15-20 games in to the season.

[Simon]

I personally thought Quashie was pretty poor against us. All he did was pass the ball 5 yards and sideways every time he had possesion.

That seems to be a bit better then our central midfielders can manage some of the time. I'd rather have someone who plays the simple pass and can KEEP the ball rather than just give it away. After all, if you can't keep the ball you can't do anything to hurt the other team!

I'm a great believer that our defence is one of the best in the league, but they are NOT good enough to defend for 80 minutes non stop with only a few minutes here and there of positive play. Shouts of 1-0 to the Arsenal are not likely to become 1-0 to the Leicester, because we simply don't have the quality to soak up that kind of pressure and hit teams on the break all the time.

I really really hope that Kelly hears the comments we're making and takes some of them on board. I just feel now that Hughes and Johno are becomming too settled- its almost like they KNOW that they're going to be in the team. Remember the time at the beginning of last season, before the Celtic match, when the other midfielders were playing out of their skins cause they were afraid they wouldn't keep their places because Weso had lit a fire under their arses?!

Perhaps we should remove the safety net and light a fire under all their arses. After all Kelly did it with Stearman why not with the other 'chosen ones'? Once we have everyone in the team busting a gut and knowing that their place is never guarenteed will go part of the way. Playing positively and showing some real attacking flair, will go some way to going the rest of the way

[Manwell Pablo]

It was a joke.. jesus. I know full well who he is thanks and it was 1.2million.

No not every player who goes for 1 million is a good player, not sure what that point has to do with anything considering you had already sang his praises. Plus someone who has gone for a combined fee of 6.3million over 4 transfers is usually a pretty good player.

In the "past" he has done it yes, he use to be a decent player and SHOULD still be able to put in decent displays. To EXPECT him to control games against a team full of players a damn sight better than ours is in my opinion expecting a lot. Against teams as good or worse than us he should be controling games and he should still be one of the better players. He hasn't been doing that yet so I agree is he doesn't soon he shouldn't be in the side.

I did wonder.....your not really one for making such a stupid comments normally, daft joke . I've got no idea how Quashie played I didn't go, I did sound he did struggle for the most part ( from what people have said, I have suspicons about Bar Bar and the Birch getting him mixed up with Jonathen Greenng though), and he clicked into gear late on, which makes you wonder what Johnson and Hughes were doing for the first 60 minutes, of course I expect him to play well at least every now and again. I was excited when he signed him and he is yet to deliver anything.

Fortunatley for him Kelly will preceiver with him for a while yet, so he'd better get his arse in gear.

RE Thracian he's buggered off on holiday so if his posts annoy some posters that much they should enjoy the peace while it lasts.

[Babylon]

Thracian he's buggered off on holiday so if he's posts annoy some posters that much they should enjoy the peace while it lasts.

THANK GOD!!!! Ha ha.. I hope we win all the games while he's away, or there will be hell to pay when he gets back!!!

[Jonbluefox9]

That's it though it's not about one defeat, as i said in the original post the last time we won away was when we had to or get relegated, we went to Millwall with one aim in mind that was to win the game. Since then that attitude has changed - we've now not only not won away for 6 games we haven't scored in the last 4 and haven't looked like doing either. You actually state we held them for 83 minutes sure we did, more importantly we matched thme for 45 minutes, but then we gave up, not only that, with the substitutions we made we gave out a clear signal that we had given up and all pretence at trying to win disappeared. Losing wasn't the problem capitulating was. I've no illusions over where we will finish in an optimistic mood I put 12th.

As I also stated when we got promoted with MON we didn't have a team that anyone with any sense would have predicted a top ten finish, but we did, not because we had the ability but because we had the attitude, I'm not harking and wishing MON was still here, there are lots of managers who can instil belief, RK can and did last season when we were in the shit but he's not doing it now.

While I see where you're coming from, RK is in a totally different boat to that of MON. MON had a fair bit of money to use to bring in players who he felt had the right attitudes etc. Players that would work together to bring success. He built a squad over a number of years. £750,000 for Lennon. A grafter, willing to put his body on the line no matter who his manager was. A good type of player to have around. Claridge £1.2million. Not a classy player but full of running and effort and capable of some decent finishes on his day. These were just two of MON's signings whilst we were pushing for promotion under him. If we could spend just short of £2million on two players now I am sure they would be players with the desired attitudes. Kelly has to make do with the squad that he has. He's only been able to add free transfers. MON thought long and hard about buying players, everything had to be researched before a deal was done. The same amount of care was not used when players like Williams and Sylla were brought into the club imo, and that's just two examples of players with the wrong type of attitude we currently have. Yes MON is a great motivator but he surrounded himself with players who were of a similar mentality whilst here which helped him a great deal.

[Manwell Pablo]

While I see where you're coming from, RK is in a totally different boat to that of MON. MON had a fair bit of money to use to bring in players who he felt had the right attitudes etc. Players that would work together to bring success. He built a squad over a number of years. £750,000 for Lennon. A grafter, willing to put his body on the line no matter who his manager was. A good type of player to have around. Claridge £1.2million. Not a classy player but full of running and effort and capable of some decent finishes on his day. These were just two of MON's signings whilst we were pushing for promotion under him. If we could spend just short of £2million on two players now I am sure they would be players with the desired attitudes. Kelly has to make do with the squad that he has. He's only been able to add free transfers. MON thought long and hard about buying players, everything had to be researched before a deal was done. The same amount of care was not used when players like Williams and Sylla were brought into the club imo, and that's just two examples of players with the wrong type of attitude we currently have. Yes MON is a great motivator but he surrounded himself with players who were of a similar mentality whilst here which helped him a great deal.

Well unless he developed ADD between going from Leicester to Celtic you would think Martin O Neil, being the great thinker you say he is, spent a fair amount of time thinking about signing Sylla for Celtic, and he got alot more out of him than Levein did.

I don't buy that, MON always got the best out of his players, players like Heskey, Impey, Marshell and Arnie Gunslinger all had the peaks of their carear at Leicester and were arguable no where near the standerd required for a top 8 league cup winning side. He did for wonders for others such as Guppy, a England cap and once placed second in the best crossers in Europe list Behind David Beckham . I can't remember having a single player who didn't want to play for Martin O'Neil in our team.

Sylla prehaps will never play at a decent level again, but I'm sure Williams would become a fantastic player under Martin O'Neil. As I'm confident Kelly will get the best out of him it might just take a little bit longer, he started to improve drastically towards the back end of last season and was one of the few minor plus points in out first two games.

[Babylon]

Arnie Gunslinger

I disagree with that, he did nothing for us and barely started any games.

[Babylon]

I can't remember having a single player who didn't want to play for Martin O'Neil in our team.

He had several bust ups with players, the main ones would be Gary Parker and Fenton.

[Jonbluefox9]

Well unless he developed ADD between going from Leicester to Celtic you would think Martin O Neil, being the great thinker you say he is, spent a fair amount of time thinking about signing Sylla for Celtic, and he got alot more out of him than Levein did.

I don't buy that, MON always got the best out of his players, players like Heskey, Impey, Marshell and Arnie Gunslinger all had the peaks of their carear at Leicester and were arguable no where near the standerd required for a top 8 league cup winning side. He did for wonders for others such as Guppy, a England cap and once placed second in the best crossers in Europe list Behind David Beckham . I can't remember having a single player who didn't want to play for Martin O'Neil in our team.

Sylla prehaps will never play at a decent level again, but I'm sure Williams would become a fantastic player under Martin O'Neil. As I'm confident Kelly will get the best out of him it might just take a little bit longer, he started to improve drastically towards the back end of last season and was one of the few minor plus points in out first two games.

Sylla wasn't a key player at Celtic when MON was there. Signing a player as back-up for Celtic in the SPL is a totally different kettle of fish to expecting him to perform every week in the Championship. Sylla started less than 30 games in 4 years at Celtic.