Premier League To Consider Expansion back on the agenda today

[davieG]

Is the idea behind a 2 tier premier league to make the division below the premier league have a share in the TV revenue generated by the big boys? If so this is exactly the sort of proposal most of you have been asking for.

I think the most pressing concern to our pyramid structure at the moment is the huge gulf in finances between the premier league and the division below it, promoted clubs are forced to threaten their financial security in order to compete under the present structure and there does not seem much hope of staying up if you do not. If the league directly below were to be given a share of premier league TV revenue, which the Championship does not outside of parachute payments, then we might see teams that go up be in a better position to compete and teams that go down not be in such a financial mess.

I don't see why it is 'fundamental change to the pyramid structure' if there is still promotion and relegation to and from the football league, Gartside has gotten rid of the only 2 down thing I believe. The only difference is that The Championship would become Premier League 2, and we'd stop pretending that Cardiff V Ipswich can generate enough TV income to provide for teams aspiring to the premiership. If anything it is a compromise between the system we have in place, where the Premiership keeps all of its own money, and the old system where all money was distributed throughout the football league. We won't see a return to the old days, never going to happen, but the competitiveness of English football and the sanctity of the pyramid structure could be in some way restored by at least removing the single huge gap between our 1st and 2nd divisions.

The argument for creating a Premier League was to make it exclusive and more marketable, surely this is going back on that and diluting it, in which case why not go the whole hog and have Premier Leagues 1,2,3 & 4 - Oh hang on that's where we started before the likes MU, Liverpool et al got greedy.

Why does any of that need Celtic/Rangers?

[Fosse Boy]

Well it is currently the top 20 clubs in the country taking all the money and saying sod the rest of the football league. If there is promotion and relegation to and from Premier League 2 then I do not see how the situation is any different to what we have now except for the there being a proper bridge between the football league and the top division. Money going from the top division into the 2nd division would improve our pyramid structure, not weaken it.

I disagree. While we still have 72 of the 92 league clubs in this country administered by the Football League, there is still some connection between some big clubs and the lower leagues. However, if we were to have two of the four divisions adminstered by Scudamore and his cronies, who couldn't give a flying fuck if we gave up the time honoured tradition of promotion and relegation so long as he made some more cash, then it would serve as yet another severance of the ties between the traditional pyrmaid structure we all know and love and his dream for an American style sports league. Yes, perhaps a dozen more clubs would be better off if this did go ahead, but so many more would be much, much worse.

I agree the situation is pretty appalling as it is, but just because Scudamore wants to invite a dozen or so new clubs to his party doesn't mean that it'll make the distribution of wealth any better for those who aren't in that exclusive bunch.

[TrickyTrev]

The argument for creating a Premier League was to make it exclusive and more marketable, surely this is going back on that and diluting it, in which case why not go the whole hog and have Premier Leagues 1,2,3 & 4 - Oh hang on that's where we started before the likes MU, Liverpool et al got greedy.

From a business point of view it needs to be diluted because the quality of the product has begun to be called into question. From a political point of view it may be diluted because the vast majority of clubs in the premier league are looking over their shoulders and wondering if they could survive if they were relegated, if proposals are made that lessens this worry it could get the support of a lot of club owners. (I believe that for big restructuring issues like this they need 16 chairman to agree)

Why not go the whole hog? I'd love for them to do so but it isn't going to happen. I don't see why this should stop me supporting something that could happen that would improve the pyramid structure in England. 'It might not be perfect but its better than what we have at the moment' is a perfectly good reason to support something.

I think a lot of you are having a hard time trusting anything that comes out of Gartside's mouth and looking at the proposals for what they are. Thats pretty understandable, the guy represents everything that is wrong with English football, I just think if this was put forward by an independent body chaired by Trevor Brooking or something then some of you might look at it with a clearer head. It's hard to stomach that what is good for Bolton might actually be what is good for football as well.

Why does any of that need Celtic/Rangers?

I think that is an entirely separate issue.

[TrickyTrev]

I agree the situation is pretty appalling as it is, but just because Scudamore wants to invite a dozen or so new clubs to his party doesn't mean that it'll make the distribution of wealth any better for those who aren't in that exclusive bunch.

It would make the possibility of promotion more appealing if TV revenues were distributed in stages. If the Championship were a strong league then clubs would not have to spend millions when they got promoted just to aim at 17th place. The possibility of progression through the leagues without bankrupting yourself is exactly what English football needs once more, that helps all fans of all clubs dream.

Your first point about fearing a powerful premier league putting an end to promotion and relegation I can understand. I just don't see how a 16 team league can make it self interesting without relegation, the premier league couldn't do it without significantly damaging their own product. (American sports work because they have divisions with small numbers of teams in them (4 or 5)) I also think that the football league totally fails to act as a counter weight to the premier league. More clubs in the premiership structure that don't have the same interests as the Big 4 would however be a significant and welcome change in football power politics. (As I said earlier, I believe to make a change you need 16 club owners to agree, that essentially means that the big 4 only have to convince one other chairman at the moment if they want to block something. A cynic would say this is made easier by the fact they can now chose which clubs to loan their promising youngsters to.)

[Jon the Hat]

I still think this is a very good idea which just needs some tweaking. Bring it on.

[Jon the Hat]

The argument for creating a Premier League was to make it exclusive and more marketable, surely this is going back on that and diluting it, in which case why not go the whole hog and have Premier Leagues 1,2,3 & 4 - Oh hang on that's where we started before the likes MU, Liverpool et al got greedy.

Why does any of that need Celtic/Rangers?

Thr premier league was a scheme to take the Sky money and share it amongst a smaller amount of clubs, and out of the hands of the rather useless football league and the FA.

[Starkwell]

Regarding Celtic and Rangers, I can't see how this is that far removed from what MK dons did, in fact, in many ways it is worse.

Also, people will argue that their success infers their level in England which is rubbish, the premiership is the number 1 ranked european league, scotland dropped to 13th (a position itself that is no doubt distorted due to the disproprtional amount of european places awarded to scotland). Furthermore, this season doesn't look quite like the 2 horse race it usually is, with the top 5 teams with 6 points of each other.

Their departure would no doubt decimate scottish football, too.

[Jon the Hat]

Regarding Celtic and Rangers, I can't see how this is that far removed from what MK dons did, in fact, in many ways it is worse.

Also, people will argue that their success infers their level in England which is rubbish, the premiership is the number 1 ranked european league, scotland dropped to 13th (a position itself that is no doubt distorted due to the disproprtional amount of european places awarded to scotland). Furthermore, this season doesn't look quite like the 2 horse race it usually is, with the top 5 teams with 6 points of each other.

Their departure would no doubt decimate scottish football, too.

What? No one is suggesting Rangers and Celtic move their ground to Enlgand

And no one is suggesting Rangers and Celtic's current squads would be any good in the Prem, or the Championship. (except the stupid). We are merely saying they have huge fan base and would be well able to raise their game hugely within a short time given the extra TV money they would get from the Premiership.

[Starkwell]

Your first point about fearing a powerful premier league putting an end to promotion and relegation I can understand. I just don't see how a 16 team league can make it self interesting without relegation, the premier league couldn't do it without significantly damaging their own product. (American sports work because they have divisions with small numbers of teams in them (4 or 5))

Additionally, American sports rely on the college sports system as a resource for players, the college system being independent of the major leagues and having a natural rolling roster of youth players - the 'checks and balances' that existed meant that the standout players leaving the college system would be available to the teams with the poorest records, therefore evening out the quality, the players themselves having no real say in the matter. Perhaps, this is why in American sports you rarely have the dominance of one particular team.

Naturally this system could never be adopted in England, unless you radically changed things, and the top 40 or so clubs played in the 'Major Leagues' whilst the next best teams, conceded to be isolated from these two leagues, instead focusing on the development of youth football, with age restrictions in place to keep the 'major' and 'development' levels seperate. - can't see it happening, but it would probably be very good for the national side.

Anyway, i'm drifting off-topic here...

[Fosse Boy]

It would make the possibility of promotion more appealing if TV revenues were distributed in stages. If the Championship were a strong league then clubs would not have to spend millions when they got promoted just to aim at 17th place. The possibility of progression through the leagues without bankrupting yourself is exactly what English football needs once more, that helps all fans of all clubs dream.

Your first point about fearing a powerful premier league putting an end to promotion and relegation I can understand. I just don't see how a 16 team league can make it self interesting without relegation, the premier league couldn't do it without significantly damaging their own product. (American sports work because they have divisions with small numbers of teams in them (4 or 5)) I also think that the football league totally fails to act as a counter weight to the premier league. More clubs in the premiership structure that don't have the same interests as the Big 4 would however be a significant and welcome change in football power politics. (As I said earlier, I believe to make a change you need 16 club owners to agree, that essentially means that the big 4 only have to convince one other chairman at the moment if they want to block something. A cynic would say this is made easier by the fact they can now chose which clubs to loan their promising youngsters to.)

My point isn't about the gulf between the top two divisions being narrowed (which would obviously be a good thing), but it's about the gulf between the 32 clubs who would be involved in this and the rest of English football widening to such an extent that it would pretty much kill lower league football stone dead and hundreds of thousands of fans would be left without a club to support.

[davieG]

From a business point of view it needs to be diluted because the quality of the product has begun to be called into question. From a political point of view it may be diluted because the vast majority of clubs in the premier league are looking over their shoulders and wondering if they could survive if they were relegated, if proposals are made that lessens this worry it could get the support of a lot of club owners. (I believe that for big restructuring issues like this they need 16 chairman to agree)

Why not go the whole hog? I'd love for them to do so but it isn't going to happen. I don't see why this should stop me supporting something that could happen that would improve the pyramid structure in England. 'It might not be perfect but its better than what we have at the moment' is a perfectly good reason to support something.

I think a lot of you are having a hard time trusting anything that comes out of Gartside's mouth and looking at the proposals for what they are. Thats pretty understandable, the guy represents everything that is wrong with English football, I just think if this was put forward by an independent body chaired by Trevor Brooking or something then some of you might look at it with a clearer head. It's hard to stomach that what is good for Bolton might actually be what is good for football as well.

I think that is an entirely separate issue.

I suspect there's no intention of retaining a pyramid, much more likely there would be no promotion between PL2 and FL1, if there was one of the main reason for this proposal would remain with the gap between PL2 & an entirly impoverised FL1 being be worse than the current gap between PL & Championship.

Why are you so sure it's seen as a seperate issue by the PL, I susepct we wont have one without the other.

[davieG]

Thr premier league was a scheme to take the Sky money and share it amongst a smaller amount of clubs, and out of the hands of the rather useless football league and the FA.

And? Wasn't that what I said? This would dilute that.

[Guest Bilo]

Celtic and Rangers belong in the Scottish leagues. Under no circumstances would I want those two scum clubs visiting English cities every week spewing their sectarian, racist and pro-terrorist bile. Frankly, if both clubs went under, I wouldn't give a flying fook. Anyone who believes one is 'better' or 'worse' than the other misses the point because bigotry is bigotry, and both fanbases have been proven guilty of it on numerous occasions.

On a more practical level, if you allow Scottish clubs into English competition, it sets a very unpleasant precedent and paves the way to a European Super League. A league that will be closed off to any club considered 'small' and will undoubtedly become a football clone of the NFL, probably killing off the best part of clubs currently competing in the Premiership/La Liga/Bundesliga middle zones. Any football fan who values the football league system that has endured for over 120 years because of it giving a fair chance to any club good enough to make the step up, should fight any moves towards towards an ESL.

[davieG]

It would make the possibility of promotion more appealing if TV revenues were distributed in stages. If the Championship were a strong league then clubs would not have to spend millions when they got promoted just to aim at 17th place. The possibility of progression through the leagues without bankrupting yourself is exactly what English football needs once more, that helps all fans of all clubs dream.

Your first point about fearing a powerful premier league putting an end to promotion and relegation I can understand. I just don't see how a 16 team league can make it self interesting without relegation, the premier league couldn't do it without significantly damaging their own product. (American sports work because they have divisions with small numbers of teams in them (4 or 5)) I also think that the football league totally fails to act as a counter weight to the premier league. More clubs in the premiership structure that don't have the same interests as the Big 4 would however be a significant and welcome change in football power politics. (As I said earlier, I believe to make a change you need 16 club owners to agree, that essentially means that the big 4 only have to convince one other chairman at the moment if they want to block something. A cynic would say this is made easier by the fact they can now chose which clubs to loan their promising youngsters to.)

With the Championship being made up of current 3/4 division teams it would attract little if any TV revenues and would become no more than a slightly up-market conference.

[Fosse Boy]

Celtic and Rangers belong in the Scottish leagues. Under no circumstances would I want those two scum clubs visiting English cities every week spewing their sectarian, racist and pro-terrorist bile. Frankly, if both clubs went under, I wouldn't give a flying fook. Anyone who believes one is 'better' or 'worse' than the other misses the point because bigotry is bigotry, and both fanbases have been proven guilty of it on numerous occasions.

On a more practical level, if you allow Scottish clubs into English competition, it sets a very unpleasant precedent and paves the way to a European Super League. A league that will be closed off to any club considered 'small' and will undoubtedly become a football clone of the NFL, probably killing off the best part of clubs currently competing in the Premiership/La Liga/Bundesliga middle zones. Any football fan who values the football league system that has endured for over 120 years because of it giving a fair chance to any club good enough to make the step up, should fight any moves towards towards an ESL.

:appl: :appl:

[TrickyTrev]

Davie G

Premier League 2 would become the 2nd division in English football. It would receive some of the TV money generated by Premier League 1 unlike the Championship. Therefore the gap between PL1 and PL2 would be smaller than the current gap between The PL and The Championship. Similarly because they are only taking a cut there would be a smaller gap between FL1 and PL2 than the current gap between the PL and The Championship. The way I read the proposals is essentially to create a subsidized league between the top division and the football league. I think this is a good idea because it spreads out the jump in TV revenues across two promotions, making competing getting promoted into either a less daunting step and removing the current temptation to contemplate bankrupting yourself.

The same amount of attention would be paid to the 3rd and 4th tiers of English football as there always has been, little outside of the communities competing in them. What is wrong with that?

[TrickyTrev]

With the Championship being made up of current 3/4 division teams it would attract little if any TV revenues and would become no more than a slightly up-market conference.

I have no doubt the 3rd or 4th division wouldn't attract TV revenues, but why should it? The problem we have at the moment is that the 2nd tier of english football does not generate enough money to produce sides capable of competing in the 1st tier. This proposal recognizes that it is a pipe dream to believe that it ever could and instead proposes that the 2nd tier get a cut of the 1st tiers money.

[davieG]

Davie G

Premier League 2 would become the 2nd division in English football. It would receive some of the TV money generated by Premier League 1 unlike the Championship. Therefore the gap between PL1 and PL2 would be smaller than the current gap between The PL and The Championship. Similarly because they are only taking a cut there would be a smaller gap between FL1 and PL2 than the current gap between the PL and The Championship. The way I read the proposals is essentially to create a subsidized league between the top division and the football league. I think this is a good idea because it spreads out the jump in TV revenues across two promotions, making competing getting promoted into either a less daunting step and removing the current temptation to contemplate bankrupting yourself.

The same amount of attention would be paid to the 3rd and 4th tiers of English football as there always has been, little outside of the communities competing in them. What is wrong with that?

I've not heard anything that convinces me there will be a link via relegation between PL2 & FL1, Garside,s original proposal didn't even include relegation between PL1 & 2 so I doubt he or others are in favour of this. If that is the case then I believe it will sound the financial death nell for what is left of the FL.

Even if it did include relegation the remains of the FL would find it impossible to get TV revenues and would become so impoverished compared to an improved PL2 that the gap would provide the same problems as the one that currently exists between PL & Championship.

It just moves the goal posts.

[Edmund]

It just moves the goal posts.

This is what I was thinking. It's just catering for a handful of clubs who would be better of financially with this proposal and looks after the well being of certain clubs who could be financially screwed if they were to ever go in the championship and not come back.

Don't fix what's not broke.

[davieG]

I have no doubt the 3rd or 4th division wouldn't attract TV revenues, but why should it? The problem we have at the moment is that the 2nd tier of english football does not generate enough money to produce sides capable of competing in the 1st tier. This proposal recognizes that it is a pipe dream to believe that it ever could and instead proposes that the 2nd tier get a cut of the 1st tiers money.

Well I find that the thought of the Premier League teams agreeing to it on that basis laughable and highly improbably, what benefit does it give those at the top. They've always argued that they need all the money they can get to compete in Europe this would go against the whole premise of why the Premier League was created.

Whatever reason they have for this proposal it's not that, yes the likes of Bolton want it because they are in debt to the tune of £50+ mill and know that if they got relegated they'd be in the shit. There's nothing philanthropic about Garside's proposal it's purely to save his own ass.

This is what I was thinking. It's just catering for a handful of clubs who would be better of financially with this proposal and looks after the well being of certain clubs who could be financially screwed if they were to ever go in the championship and not come back.

Don't fix what's not broke.

Unfortunately it is virtually broke but this wont fix it!

[Edmund]

Whatever reason they have for this proposal it's not that, yes the likes of Bolton want it because they are in debt to the tune of £50+ mill and know that if they got relegated they'd be in the shit. There's nothing philanthropic about Garside's proposal it's purely to save his own ass.

Summed up the whole proposal in a paragraph.

Unfortunately it is virtually broke but this wont fix it!

I should have used a better a choice of words

You're quite right it is broke but you know what I mean, it's still surviving just fine for the time being and no need for drastic changes.

Whilst were on the subject, didn't the prem use to have 24 teams or did I imagine that all that.

[The Doctor]

So Celtic and Rangers are too bored with SPL football??? How come they usually falter pretty early in international competitions. Too good for Scotland, but not good enough for Europe, eh? And how come their national squad has been a laughing stock for years now?

Maybe they should re-think the SPL first and make some changes to their league system instead.

Size-wise, it's a comparable situation to Switzerland (ten teams in the Super League, 16 in the second division), yet there's still surprises by smaller teams like Thun or St. Gallen who occasionally do very well in one or two seasons.

not entirely true. we were a laughing stock under Vogts but since he left a definate improvement has been made

[Corky]

Thing is, if the Premier League let these clubs in, we have a problem. What if Hearts, Dundee United or Hibs feel they should be in this league? Should they be rejected?

You bring in one or two, and after a while more will probably want to come.

[davieG]

Thing is, if the Premier League let these clubs in, we have a problem. What if Hearts, Dundee United or Hibs feel they should be in this league? Should they be rejected?

You bring in one or two, and after a while more will probably want to come.

How does it fit in with wanting full independance from England?

Also FIFA and UEFA would have more amunition to insist on just a UK/Great Britain side what with Scottish and Welsh and possible NI/Irish clubs in the English Leagues.

Would it also include a reduction in the number of European Cup places, if they got high enough would Celtic or Rangers qualify from the 'English' Premier League, would Scotland still be alowed 2 places plus their Europa slots?

[TrickyTrev]

Whatever reason they have for this proposal it's not that, yes the likes of Bolton want it because they are in debt to the tune of £50+ mill and know that if they got relegated they'd be in the shit. There's nothing philanthropic about Garside's proposal it's purely to save his own ass.

I know there is nothing philanthropic about it, but is it really good to have our premier league clubs facing bankruptcy if they are relegated and our championship clubs choosing between doing a a Hull (taking a huge financial gamble to try and come 17th) and doing a Derby (spending nothing and getting thrashed every week) if they get promoted. I repeat, just because something is good for Bolton doesn't mean it is bad for football.

The proposal DOES include promotion between FL1 and PL2. There is already no money is the 3rd and 4th tiers of English football.