Premier League To Consider Expansion back on the agenda today

[BlueSi13]

With respect, the old firm clubs are far bigger than any of the clubs you've mentioned.

The plan, however, would be for them to start in the second tier, with no guarantee they'd both go up in the first season.

But thats what im talking about! wheres the proof that the firm are bigger than say a Leeds, Man City or a Sheffield Wednesday?, those three really are big clubs! underrated due to their lack of success in modern times.

To be honest i just think we've been fed bullshit about their size by their own fans for way too long and ive never seen in my travels what they are going on about in terms of "massive global support", but hey thats just me i won't deny that they are big clubs, but massive? not for me.

[Finnegan]

I understand there is an option to ignore posters. Obviously I would prefer people to read my opinions, but it is always an option.

Yet again though, several people have similar opinions as me and who is picked out?

I'm not picking on you directly, you were the last person to post in the thread when I looked and I thought what you and Leismore had written was narrow-minded, naive and a little immature. My apologies if you feel targeted - I had this rant with someone else a week or so ago.

[Radovan's Caravan]

The consequences of Celtic and Rangers joining the EPL would spark an exodus of clubs from second rate leagues throughout Europe:

PSG would leave Le Championnat for La Liga;

Ajax would leave Eredivisie 1 for the Bundesliga;

F C Kuusankoski would leave the Kakkonen for Serie A.

The last of these scenarios is by far and away the most serious. It is unlikely that any current Serie A club has any idea where Kuusankoski is and therefore would be unable fo fulfill their away fixture at this obscure club. As this ignorance would guarantee Kuusankoski's top flight survival (57 points) they would probably be most unwilling to divulge their whereabouts to potential visitors.

The F C Kuusankoski badge will be closely scrutinised by senior Italian club officials anxious to trace its provenance

[Ultra]

But thats what im talking about! wheres the proof that the firm are bigger than say a Leeds, Man City or a Sheffield Wednesday?, those three really are big clubs! underrated due to their lack of success in modern times.

To be honest i just think we've been fed bullshit about their size by their own fans for way too long and ive never seen in my travels what they are going on about in terms of "massive global support", but hey thats just me i won't deny that they are big clubs, but massive? not for me.

Both of them have average gates of 50000+, more often than not just to watch them steamroller the likes of Hamilton and Falkirk.

They've also had a fair degree of success in Europe in recent seasons. Few teams from a league of the SPL's size have made it past the Champions League group stage (as Celtic have done twice), or to a final (which both Celtic and Rangers have done this decade).

As others have noted, Celtic enjoy massive backing wherever there are Irish settlements. So they attract enormous interest in places like Boston and New York.

The Rangers fanbase isn't quite as big, but the club's turnover is still bigger than most Premier clubs.

Another factor which may make a deal more likely is the financial crisis at Setanta.

If Setanta goes bust, that would really screw the old firm up.

[BlueSi13]

Both of them have average gates of 50000+, more often than not just to watch them steamroller the likes of Hamilton and Falkirk.

They've also had a fair degree of success in Europe in recent seasons. Few teams from a league of the SPL's size have made it past the Champions League group stage (as Celtic have done twice), or to a final (which both Celtic and Rangers have done this decade).

As others have noted, Celtic enjoy massive backing wherever there are Irish settlements. So they attract enormous interest in places like Boston and New York.

The Rangers fanbase isn't quite as big, but the club's turnover is still bigger than most Premier clubs.

Another factor which may make a deal more likely is the financial crisis at Setanta.

If Setanta goes bust, that would really screw the old firm up.

Agreed, Setanta is in a real mess, i for one won't miss them when they are gone!

This has been a good debate and im pleased it hasn't boiled down to petty insults

However i have one last question, are we all in agreement here that the addition of Celtic & Rangers to any English league set-up would only be of benefit to Celtic & Rangers??? I simply can't think of any benefit any English club would enjoy if they were to come down.....

[Jon the Hat]

However i have one last question, are we all in agreement here that the addition of Celtic & Rangers to any English league set-up would only be of benefit to Celtic & Rangers??? I simply can't think of any benefit any English club would enjoy if they were to come down.....

More money, more big games. I would love to see this happen.

[davieG]

Agreed, Setanta is in a real mess, i for one won't miss them when they are gone!

This has been a good debate and im pleased it hasn't boiled down to petty insults

However i have one last question, are we all in agreement here that the addition of Celtic & Rangers to any English league set-up would only be of benefit to Celtic & Rangers??? I simply can't think of any benefit any English club would enjoy if they were to come down.....

For those clubs that maintain their Premiership place more income especially if the replace smaller clubs like Wigan how ever thier chances of winning any of the domestic trophies would diminish.

I'm 100% against it.

Instead of Bolton coming up with these silly ideas to try to save their Premiership membership they should be fighting to make the Premier a level playing field, if the cut-throat Yanks can do it in their national sports I don't see why it shouldn't happen here.

[Jon the Hat]

For those clubs that maintain their Premiership place more income especially if the replace smaller clubs like Wigan how ever thier chances of winning any of the domestic trophies would diminish.

I'm 100% against it.

Instead of Bolton coming up with these silly ideas to try to save their Premiership membership they should be fighting to make the Premier a level playing field, if the cut-throat Yanks can do it in their national sports I don't see why it shouldn't happen here.

The Yanks have centralised control in each of the major sports don't they? Franchise system means you can ditch people who don't agree.

If they could fairly rearrange the finance to filter it downwards better I don;t see why not. Mind you the Scottish leagues would be like the LOW.

[TrickyTrev]

Oh for fuck's sakes not this again. Don't be a pair of retards.

Look, I'm not really 'for' the idea - I don't want to see the Old Firm playing in the Prem. But anyone who thinks they wouldn't be a force in English football is a complete goon. So they don't have very good squads now, what's your point? They don't have good squads because the best players don't want to play in the SPL and the SPL doesn't generate much money.

You put them in the EPL and hey presto! Rangers easily have the resources to be a top-half Premiership club and, without wanting to wind up the Huns fans on here, Celtic's potential is even more enormous due to a somewhat larger stadium and infinite marketability. Why buy an Irish theme pub when you can buy an Irish theme club?

Football is a business and the Old Firm is a HUGE prospect. That's all this is about, money. Celtic and Rangers want in for the money, The Premier League would want them in... for the money.

You've got to be the most stupid, ignorant, short-sighted berk in the world to expect the two of them to struggle in the depths of the Championship.

Celtic would eventually become huge players, but I don't see why Rangers would be anymore likely to succeed than say Newcastle or Tottenham when they get their new ground. They would also need to spend big in their first season if they were to be put straight into the Premiership, it would be a struggle for both, even Gordon Strachan admitted that Celtic currently can't compete in wages even with the likes of Hull.

I think it would be good for the Premier League to get two proper, well supported clubs, in the division. Give it a few years and Celtic may even have a chance of winning the thing. It would cause tremendous excitement. Cardiff and Swansea are in the English leagues so why can't the big Scottish clubs be too?

[Koke]

I think it would be good for the Premier League to get two proper, well supported clubs, in the division. Give it a few years and Celtic may even have a chance of winning the thing. It would cause tremendous excitement. Cardiff and Swansea are in the English leagues so why can't the big Scottish clubs be too?

Swansea have been part of our football league since 1920, and Cardiff even before that. They are incomparable to Celtic and Rangers.

If they wanna start from scratch in the football league, then by all means be our guests, but throwing them into the Premiership at the expense of little Wigan and little Stoke is not acceptable.

I don't want them here to begin with anyway and I don't think it will happen in the foreseeable future.

[welck12]

Swansea have been part of our football league since 1920, and Cardiff even before that. They are incomparable to Celtic and Rangers.

If they wanna start from scratch in the football league, then by all means be our guests, but throwing them into the Premiership at the expense of little Wigan and little Stoke is not acceptable.

I don't want them here to begin with anyway and I don't think it will happen in the foreseeable future.

Spot on, if they want in fine. But make them earn it, just like AFC Wimbledon did, chuck them in the conference

[Koke]

I don't think it happen either way to be honest.

[davieG]

Old Firm switch up for discussion

Celtic and Rangers would be invited to join the second-tier league

Proposals to accept Glasgow rivals Celtic and Rangers into an expanded Premier League will be put forward for consideration this week.

Bolton chairman Phil Gartside will pitch plans for a two-tier league of between 36 and 40 teams on Thursday.

It is understood there would be a top tier of 18 clubs, with promotion and relegation to and from the league.

Aston Villa manager Martin O'Neill and Spurs boss Harry Redknapp have backed the inclusion of the Scottish clubs.

Former Celtic manager O'Neill told BBC Radio 5 live: "I would like to see both teams in the Premier League. I think it would make the Premier League even stronger.

"I've been there, Celtic is just an unbelievable football club and Rangers also.

I would welcome Celtic and Rangers to English football if they wanted to play down here

Harry Redknapp

"I don't think for one minute the likes of ourselves, Aston Villa, would sit back and think 'well that's it', or just give up. I think all clubs would try and get stronger because of it."

Redknapp told the Daily Record: "I would welcome Celtic and Rangers to English football if they wanted to play down here.

"No doubt about it, I'm sure they would be good for the English game."

The proposals are a revival of Gartside's ideas which received a hostile reception from the Premier League's 20 chairmen six months ago.

However, Gartside, the driving force behind the revamp, has tweaked the original plans to include promotion and relegation to and from the dual-tier league, while the two Scottish clubs would initially be invited to join the lower tier.

The Bolton chairman is also believed to be open to inviting an Irish franchise into the league in the future.

Former Birmingham City chairman David Gold told BBC Radio 5 live that the Premier League needed "new thinking, new proposals, new ideas" to "save itself from itself".

However, Stoke owner Peter Coates said there was no need to change a league which was already an "enormous success".

"There is no indication that it [the Premier League] needs Rangers and Celtic to take it further," he said.

It would be at the expense of two established English teams and would disenfranchise many English fans

And BBC Sport's Dan Roan said the proposals would represent a "radical overhaul" of the pyramid structure.

"Gartside is one of the most powerful men in the English game," he told BBC Radio 5 live.

"He's one of the longest-serving chairman in the Premier League, a man who sits on the FA board, one of just three professional representatives on the FA board, so I think it's fair to say that it's a serious proposal and deserves to be listened to."

A Premier League spokesman stated that club chairmen were invited last year to submit thoughts and ideas as part of a strategic review process looking at the future of the Premier League.

He also stressed that the potential plan for expansion was Gartside's idea rather than coming from the Premier League.

Thursday's meeting, which takes place between 1100 and 1400 GMT, will also consider the sponsorship deal agreed with Barclays in October, while the recent performances of referees may also be discussed.

[Edmund]

Old Firm switch up for discussion

Celtic and Rangers would be invited to join the second-tier league

Proposals to accept Glasgow rivals Celtic and Rangers into an expanded Premier League will be put forward for consideration this week.

Bolton chairman Phil Gartside will pitch plans for a two-tier league of between 36 and 40 teams on Thursday.

It is understood there would be a top tier of 18 clubs, with promotion and relegation to and from the league.

Aston Villa manager Martin O'Neill and Spurs boss Harry Redknapp have backed the inclusion of the Scottish clubs.

Former Celtic manager O'Neill told BBC Radio 5 live: "I would like to see both teams in the Premier League. I think it would make the Premier League even stronger.

"I've been there, Celtic is just an unbelievable football club and Rangers also.

I would welcome Celtic and Rangers to English football if they wanted to play down here

Harry Redknapp

"I don't think for one minute the likes of ourselves, Aston Villa, would sit back and think 'well that's it', or just give up. I think all clubs would try and get stronger because of it."

Redknapp told the Daily Record: "I would welcome Celtic and Rangers to English football if they wanted to play down here.

"No doubt about it, I'm sure they would be good for the English game."

The proposals are a revival of Gartside's ideas which received a hostile reception from the Premier League's 20 chairmen six months ago.

However, Gartside, the driving force behind the revamp, has tweaked the original plans to include promotion and relegation to and from the dual-tier league, while the two Scottish clubs would initially be invited to join the lower tier.

The Bolton chairman is also believed to be open to inviting an Irish franchise into the league in the future.

Former Birmingham City chairman David Gold told BBC Radio 5 live that the Premier League needed "new thinking, new proposals, new ideas" to "save itself from itself".

However, Stoke owner Peter Coates said there was no need to change a league which was already an "enormous success".

"There is no indication that it [the Premier League] needs Rangers and Celtic to take it further," he said.

It would be at the expense of two established English teams and would disenfranchise many English fans

And BBC Sport's Dan Roan said the proposals would represent a "radical overhaul" of the pyramid structure.

"Gartside is one of the most powerful men in the English game," he told BBC Radio 5 live.

"He's one of the longest-serving chairman in the Premier League, a man who sits on the FA board, one of just three professional representatives on the FA board, so I think it's fair to say that it's a serious proposal and deserves to be listened to."

A Premier League spokesman stated that club chairmen were invited last year to submit thoughts and ideas as part of a strategic review process looking at the future of the Premier League.

He also stressed that the potential plan for expansion was Gartside's idea rather than coming from the Premier League.

Thursday's meeting, which takes place between 1100 and 1400 GMT, will also consider the sponsorship deal agreed with Barclays in October, while the recent performances of referees may also be discussed.

In other words they want to add the old firm to the championship and make the premier league smaller. So I'm guessing that will have a knock on effect throughout the football leagues meaning some poor old clubs will be demoted to BSP to compensate for these arrivals.

[Milky]

We hate England! We hate England! Oh, but can we join your league? Clear off ya stinka pish.

[Radovan's Caravan]

Rangers are broke and Celtic are heading that way and it won't be long now before the SPL loses its automatic CL berth - that's what this is all about. But with Man U, Chelsea Arsenal & Liverpool £2 Billion in debt it won't be long before the EPL blows up in spectaculare fashion...

and medium sized provincial clubs start winning the title the season after clinching promotion just like in the good old days

[Corky]

No way, don't want them in our league.

[Tevez]

I'd love this to happen.

[Fosse Boy]

If they do join, it'll be bad news for English club football. Soon there'll be a cut off of promotion and relegation, with the most comercially viable clubs making the cut while the rest are hung out to dry. Then Scudamore will have his dream of an American style sports league come true.

Or maybe I'm just a crazy conspiracy theorist and you should all ignore me...

[MC Prussian]

So Celtic and Rangers are too bored with SPL football??? How come they usually falter pretty early in international competitions. Too good for Scotland, but not good enough for Europe, eh? And how come their national squad has been a laughing stock for years now?

Maybe they should re-think the SPL first and make some changes to their league system instead.

Size-wise, it's a comparable situation to Switzerland (ten teams in the Super League, 16 in the second division), yet there's still surprises by smaller teams like Thun or St. Gallen who occasionally do very well in one or two seasons.

[TrickyTrev]

Is the idea behind a 2 tier premier league to make the division below the premier league have a share in the TV revenue generated by the big boys? If so this is exactly the sort of proposal most of you have been asking for.

I think the most pressing concern to our pyramid structure at the moment is the huge gulf in finances between the premier league and the division below it, promoted clubs are forced to threaten their financial security in order to compete under the present structure and there does not seem much hope of staying up if you do not. If the league directly below were to be given a share of premier league TV revenue, which the Championship does not outside of parachute payments, then we might see teams that go up be in a better position to compete and teams that go down not be in such a financial mess.

I don't see why it is 'fundamental change to the pyramid structure' if there is still promotion and relegation to and from the football league, Gartside has gotten rid of the only 2 down thing I believe. The only difference is that The Championship would become Premier League 2, and we'd stop pretending that Cardiff V Ipswich can generate enough TV income to provide for teams aspiring to the premiership. If anything it is a compromise between the system we have in place, where the Premiership keeps all of its own money, and the old system where all money was distributed throughout the football league. We won't see a return to the old days, never going to happen, but the competitiveness of English football and the sanctity of the pyramid structure could be in some way restored by at least removing the single huge gap between our 1st and 2nd divisions.

[Sly]

You could argue the fact for a massive revamp of the home nations football structure.

You could argue the fact for a combined home nations Football Association.

You could argue the fact for a restructured league system featuring clubs from England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland.

You could argue the fact for a single British International Team.

You could argue the fact for a European super league above the English Premiership.

Personally, as long as we have a league structure in place that allows for a promotion and relegation system, allowing clubs to move from the bottom tier of football to the top then I'm happy. I think they should maybe they should opt for 4 slots in each division as this will maintain the excitement a bit longer for the teams that get caught in mid table mediocrity ever season.

I don't really care, one way or another if the Old Firm wish to join out league. I'll still be supporting Leicester and I'll support Leicester in whatever division we are in.

[Fosse Boy]

Is the idea behind a 2 tier premier league to make the division below the premier league have a share in the TV revenue generated by the big boys? If so this is exactly the sort of proposal most of you have been asking for.

I think the most pressing concern to our pyramid structure at the moment is the huge gulf in finances between the premier league and the division below it, promoted clubs are forced to threaten their financial security in order to compete under the present structure and there does not seem much hope of staying up if you do not. If the league directly below were to be given a share of premier league TV revenue, which the Championship does not outside of parachute payments, then we might see teams that go up be in a better position to compete and teams that go down not be in such a financial mess.

I don't see why it is 'fundamental change to the pyramid structure' if there is still promotion and relegation to and from the football league, Gartside has gotten rid of the only 2 down thing I believe. The only difference is that The Championship would become Premier League 2, and we'd stop pretending that Cardiff V Ipswich can generate enough TV income to provide for teams aspiring to the premiership. If anything it is a compromise between the system we have in place, where the Premiership keeps all of its own money, and the old system where all money was distributed throughout the football league. We won't see a return to the old days, never going to happen, but the competitiveness of English football and the sanctity of the pyramid structure could be in some way restored by at least removing the single huge gap between our 1st and 2nd divisions.

The way I read it, it's pretty much "keep the top 32 clubs in the country and split them into two leagues of 16, give them all the money and then sod the rest in the lower leagues". No doubt the spinelesss suits at the FA will be in favour.

[Tommeh]

Fu.ck off to both of them. Wankers.

And Gartside, Scudamore cu.nts.

actually I'm past caring about the PL now, it's screwed. Do whatever.

[TrickyTrev]

The way I read it, it's pretty much "keep the top 32 clubs in the country and split them into two leagues of 16, give them all the money and then sod the rest in the lower leagues". No doubt the spinelesss suits at the FA will be in favour.

Well it is currently the top 20 clubs in the country taking all the money and saying sod the rest of the football league. If there is promotion and relegation to and from Premier League 2 then I do not see how the situation is any different to what we have now except for the there being a proper bridge between the football league and the top division. Money going from the top division into the 2nd division would improve our pyramid structure, not weaken it.

(Edit- I want to make it clear that I am sure that Gartside would love to make the premier league a closed shop whilst Bolton manage to stay up, but that is not the proposal that is being put forward at this moment. I can see in this plan something good so that we wouldn't see clubs like Hull feeling they have to bankrupt themselves, clubs like Derby who take the opposite route not getting thrashed every week and fans of clubs like Leicester not looking at promotion with a degree of trepidation!)