College refuses entry to women wearing Veils

[Zingari]

Well according to you that's an impossible scenario, he couldn't possible a muslim more likely the CIA pretending to be a Muslim.

game set and match

[Edmund]

Well according to you that's an impossible scenario, he couldn't possible a muslim more likely the CIA pretending to be a Muslim.

He's got you there Empty.

[BoneDog]

He hasn't got me there lads. He knows what I meant. He just being picky, he does it alot with me.

If it was someone with a Muslim name I'll re-phrase it to. We all know if that was the case this story would be all over the news for months and people would be comparing it with Islam. A pregnant woman stabbed to death IN COURT BY THE ACCUSED and HER husband shot by security, and it's nowhere.

I just think this story shows the ingrained prejudice alot of folk have and also shows up the media. It would be news headlines from Italy to the USA if it was Muslim male on German woman and husband. FACT

[BoneDog]

I also think Davie knows what I mean when I mention cia. I don't mean the guys who are fighting against soldiers who have bombed their houses or anything. I mean the bombs blowing up markets, bus queues, mosques etc are done by different people than get blamed for them. (not evryone who fights is a puppet, but those bombs that blow up their own people and no-one else are done by security services of other countrys)

[Guest]

He hasn't got me there lads. He knows what I meant. He just being picky, he does it alot with me.

If it was someone with a Muslim name I'll re-phrase it to. We all know if that was the case this story would be all over the news for months and people would be comparing it with Islam. A pregnant woman stabbed to death IN COURT BY THE ACCUSED and HER husband shot by security, and it's nowhere.

I just think this story shows the ingrained prejudice alot of folk have and also shows up the media. It would be news headlines from Italy to the USA if it was Muslim male on German woman and husband. FACT

Or it could be that with the news being a limited resource, there are more important stories to show?

Just a suggestion, before you jump on me (not literally).

[Dr The Singh]

Science and true religion go hand in hand. The original books all encourage scientific thought. And if it weren't for Islam the scientific world would be nowhere near what it is today. All the top scientists of the middle ages (I think the time frame is right) learnt from Islams science.

What a load of cock, what's wrong with you, you keep bringing up stuff we've already discussed. Comming from a scientific background, and having more then enough knowledge on Islam and many other other religions, that is a load of bull, if i were to say which religion has had the most effect onscience, majority of physics and maths were indentified during the vedic era well prior to Islam, anybody that knows science, physics is the basis of science, so get Islam out of your arse and face the facts buddy, study the facts cus Islam ain't all that!!!

[BoneDog]

What a load of cock, what's wrong with you, you keep bringing up stuff we've already discussed. Comming from a scientific background, and having more then enough knowledge on Islam and many other other religions, that is a load of bull, if i were to say which religion has had the most effect onscience, majority of physics and maths were indentified during the vedic era well prior to Islam, anybody that knows science, physics is the basis of science, so get Islam out of your arse and face the facts buddy, study the facts cus Islam ain't all that!!!

You're full of it sometimes. Scientists (good ones pats and present) acknowledge how Islam changed everything. In Astronomy, mathematics, medicine and many other fields. Not my words.

I know you always say we've discussed this and that before, and you always say you proved me wrong, but many of those times you didn't prove anything but acted like your words were gospel. I think the adulation you sometimes get on here when you do a big 'factual' statement might be going to your head.

I have studied the facts as you tell me to (more than you I'm beginning to wonder).

And you say you have more than enough knowledge of Islam, but I don't think you do. You might have a general understanding but certainly not more than enough. I reckon you have read alot of websites but not the actual Koran front to back. Just quotes here and there that have been taken out of context and wrongly commented on as they do.

[BoneDog]

Or it could be that with the news being a limited resource, there are more important stories to show?

Just a suggestion, before you jump on me (not literally).

Maybe, but i doubt it. If it was the other way around and Muslim killed the pregnant woman in front of her 3 year old in a courtroom it would be headlines everywhere.

[breadandcheese]

You're full of it sometimes. Scientists (good ones pats and present) acknowledge how Islam changed everything. In Astronomy, mathematics, medicine and many other fields. Not my words.

Was it that they were scientists who happened to be muslim? In the same way that Einstein happened to be Jewish? I would argue that their faith had nothing to do with their scientific achievements, and more to do with their external factors, such as living in the most advanced nations of the time. Hence many fantastic Chinese, American, European (Greek, British, German) scientists throughout the timelines coinciding with when each civilisation/nation at its most developed (Greek civilisation, the Qing dynasties, the Islamic empire in the 1400s, the British empire, etc, etc)

[breadandcheese]

Maybe, but i doubt it. If it was the other way around and Muslim killed the pregnant woman in front of her 3 year old in a courtroom it would be headlines everywhere.

I agree with you on that, but I don't think you will find anyone defending the actions of this murderer in Germany, and I hope he never sees the light of day again.

[Dr The Singh]

You're full of it sometimes. Scientists (good ones pats and present) acknowledge how Islam changed everything. In Astronomy, mathematics, medicine and many other fields. Not my words.

I know you always say we've discussed this and that before, and you always say you proved me wrong, but many of those times you didn't prove anything but acted like your words were gospel. I think the adulation you sometimes get on here when you do a big 'factual' statement might be going to your head.

I have studied the facts as you tell me to (more than you I'm beginning to wonder).

And you say you have more than enough knowledge of Islam, but I don't think you do. You might have a general understanding but certainly not more than enough. I reckon you have read alot of websites but not the actual Koran front to back. Just quotes here and there that have been taken out of context and wrongly commented on as they do.

Sorry i come accross that way, but you can't expect to make blanket statements and expect people to just accept them. If you can prove beyond doubt what you have said, please do go ahead!!

Empty, you keep making the same statements about Islam and without verification, and it's like we keep goign around the same circles, mate if you say 'in my opinion.......blah, blah...' then fair enough but to say 'Islam is......' then there will be people that will disagree with you.....atleast I have given evidence for my statements.............

Empty, you may know more about Islam then me, and my words aren't gospel buddy but I suppose they may come accross that way, your quite welcome to challenge anything I say!! Your previous statements about the Koran being the only holy book that has never changed, is wrong because Granth Sahib is another, plus the fact the majority of the scholary world all agree that caliph Umar devised the current Koran and that there were previous versions!! Your comments on Koran and science, firstly you need to understand what is scientific, a sentence which describes on event is not scientific, it's an observation!! A scientific report, or paper, is usually several pages long, not one sentence!!

I've got a copy of the Koran and have read it, IMO, it's not my fault there several interpretations and several variations of the Koran eg yousef ali and hadiths, and hence you can see why there's so many streams and extremes within Islam, it's nothing to do with the west or CIA, Islam after it's prophet Islam has always had this issue. It's unfortunate the prophet didn;t prophicise his death!!! I've actually around 10 books on Islam, many are by Islamic scholars, there's loads of online resources including hadiths, sunah (mohammed's biography) sura's etc, most I have read are from Islamic websites, if you don't believe me, then there's a member of this forum that has borrowed books from me in the past!!!! My fav Islamic reading is the prophets biography, I find the guy fascinating, only by reading his biography do the sura's make sense and why those sura's were 'revealed'!!

Mate IMO, the Koran is very limited, if your gonna live you life by it. In terms of eliquency etc, again there are far more poetic religious documents, interms of prophecy and science, the veda's are far more supreme.

Mate, i'm a Sikh, but i'm not anti truth, hence I look at facts, although Sikhism\Granth is a wonderful religion\scripture, and has many scientific observations\revelations many more then Islam, i would never call them scientific. I'm so glad the Sikh institute do not push the idea of Sikhism being scientific, because I would be embarassed!!

You are so bias, it's unbelievable, tell me which scientist of any note, say the Koran is scientific, making a statement of insight eg 'oh wow Islam describe the big bang is alot difference to saying it is scientific' eg 'Oh wow, it was anti matter of neutrons that under intense volumic pressure of dark matter.....!!!

[BoneDog]

Was it that they were scientists who happened to be muslim? In the same way that Einstein happened to be Jewish? I would argue that their faith had nothing to do with their scientific achievements, and more to do with their external factors, such as living in the most advanced nations of the time. Hence many fantastic Chinese, American, European (Greek, British, German) scientists throughout the timelines coinciding with when each civilisation/nation at its most developed (Greek civilisation, the Qing dynasties, the Islamic empire in the 1400s, the British empire, etc, etc)

Exactly. When I first responded about science and Islam I was just trying to make the point that science and religion do go together. Alot of people seem to think that religious people are not scientific and if you believe in a Creator then you can't be scientific. I was just trying to say that that belief is not true.

(the Islamic world of science was most prominent in 800ad to about 1250ad I think, and alot of the books they wrote on Chemistry, medicine etc were still used up until 1900 before the West had an explosion of new techniques, technology and ideas.)

[BoneDog]

I agree with you on that, but I don't think you will find anyone defending the actions of this murderer in Germany, and I hope he never sees the light of day again.

Yes I agree nobody would defend him (maybe a few far right folk were happy). I just hate how half the world would of exploded in anger if it was the other way round and there would be tv programmes on it blaming Islam.

[Dr The Singh]

Exactly. When I first responded about science and Islam I was just trying to make the point that science and religion do go together. Alot of people seem to think that religious people are not scientific and if you believe in a Creator then you can't be scientific. I was just trying to say that that belief is not true.

(the Islamic world of science was most prominent in 800ad to about 1250ad I think, and alot of the books they wrote on Chemistry, medicine etc were still used up until 1900 before the West had an explosion of new techniques, technology and ideas.)

But Empty that's not what you written on this thread, and my response of laughter was to your:

'And if it weren't for Islam the scientific world would be nowhere near what it is today' As you can read, and that statement is cack mate!!

No matter what which ever background, man has always tried to find solutions and answers, it's human nature!!! I agree religious people were scientific and still are, but calling a holy book scientific is ridiculous, or believing a religion is the prime reason for scientific discovery!!! I was reading a funny story a while back, how south of spain and north african muslims were poineers in scientific strategies, and one of the leaders imprisoned a great scientist because he failed to solve an issue with the flooding of the nile. I will try and find it and post it on here, but my point is, science is a tool to find solutions to day to day issues, no matter what religion they are eg astrological poineers were required to guess seasons etc so farmers knew when to grow crops etc!!!!

[Dr The Singh]

Yes I agree nobody would defend him (maybe a few far right folk were happy). I just hate how half the world would of exploded in anger if it was the other way round and there would be tv programmes on it blaming Islam.

It's propaganda, the media is the best way of getting society to conform to certain idea's and ideals, eg the tibet crisis, is so widely covered yet, because china is a threat to the west, anti-chinese sentiment aids the western governments in there agenda's. But massacres, genocide, in places such as Darfur, Punjab etc are political non entities, those places have no value, or political agenda, hence coverage would be minimal!!!

[breadandcheese]

Exactly. When I first responded about science and Islam I was just trying to make the point that science and religion do go together. Alot of people seem to think that religious people are not scientific and if you believe in a Creator then you can't be scientific. I was just trying to say that that belief is not true.

(the Islamic world of science was most prominent in 800ad to about 1250ad I think, and alot of the books they wrote on Chemistry, medicine etc were still used up until 1900 before the West had an explosion of new techniques, technology and ideas.)

Maybe my point was garbled. I'm suggesting that actually religion had very little to do with the scientific discoveries, and that actually it was external factors, based on the stage of development and power of the society in which the scientist lived. Hence, the most powerful nations, at all stages throughout history, have had a greater reach over the planet, to incorporate new ideas from conquered powers, as well as having more financial muscle to research and develop new technologies. I would argue that religion of any particular scientist is a matter of coincidence and chance, rather than being significant.

[BoneDog]

1. Sorry i come accross that way, but you can't expect to make blanket statements and expect people to just accept them. If you can prove beyond doubt what you have said, please do go ahead!!

Empty, you keep making the same statements about Islam and without verification, and it's like we keep goign around the same circles, mate if you say 'in my opinion.......blah, blah...' then fair enough but to say 'Islam is......' then there will be people that will disagree with you.....atleast I have given evidence for my statements.............

Empty, you may know more about Islam then me, and my words aren't gospel buddy but I suppose they may come accross that way, your quite welcome to challenge anything I say!! 2. Your previous statements about the Koran being the only holy book that has never changed, is wrong because Granth Sahib is another, plus the fact the majority of the scholary world all agree that caliph Umar devised the current Koran and that there were previous versions!! Your comments on Koran and science, firstly you need to understand what is scientific, a sentence which describes on event is not scientific, it's an observation!! A scientific report, or paper, is usually several pages long, not one sentence!!

3. I've got a copy of the Koran and have read it, IMO, it's not my fault there several interpretations and several variations of the Koran eg yousef ali and hadiths, and 4. hence you can see why there's so many streams and extremes within Islam, it's nothing to do with the west or CIA, Islam after it's prophet Islam has always had this issue. It's unfortunate the prophet didn;t prophicise his death!!! 5. I've actually around 10 books on Islam, many are by Islamic scholars, there's loads of online resources including hadiths, sunah (mohammed's biography) sura's etc, most I have read are from Islamic websites, if you don't believe me, then there's a member of this forum that has borrowed books from me in the past!!!! My fav Islamic reading is the prophets biography, I find the guy fascinating, only by reading his biography do the sura's make sense and why those sura's were 'revealed'!!

6. Mate IMO, the Koran is very limited, if your gonna live you life by it. In terms of eliquency etc, again there are far more poetic religious documents, interms of prophecy and science, the veda's are far more supreme.

7. Mate, i'm a Sikh, but i'm not anti truth, hence I look at facts, although Sikhism\Granth is a wonderful religion\scripture, and has many scientific observations\revelations many more then Islam, i would never call them scientific. I'm so glad the Sikh institute do not push the idea of Sikhism being scientific, because I would be embarassed!!

You are so bias, it's unbelievable, tell me which scientist of any note, say the Koran is scientific, making a statement of insight eg 'oh wow Islam describe the big bang is alot difference to saying it is scientific' eg 'Oh wow, it was anti matter of neutrons that under intense volumic pressure of dark matter.....!!!

1. You don't come accross like that, It's just me getting defensive and saying stupid stuff, I do it often and regret it after.

2. I have never heard of that book so didn't know. I admit I don't know much about any books apart from the three monotheistic (think that's the word) ones : Torah, Bible and Koran and I know how many times the first two have been medled with and changed. There are so many versions of them and say if you are a Christian it would be hard to know what to believe because you are supposed to follow Jesus to be a Christian, but all his words are lost or changed so it's almost impossible to do as he told us to. Kings, priests and others (mainly at the counsel of Nicasea) have changed his words (and his birthday).

3. I agree that the Koran is hard to translate into English as in classical Arabic there are alot of words that have no meaning to us and people use a full sentence to interpret one word, hence the different translations. But every arabic version is the same (from what I've seen!). As for hadiths, I have disagreements with some Muslims over these cos from what I've seen some of them are not real or authentic (planted by outside forces trying to discredit the religion ). So I defo agree with you that alot of the hadith are very dodgy.

4. I agree about all the different versions and extremes of Muslims (and am starting to see thanks to my debates on here that not all of the bad events are committed by outside agents) but I will always believe that alot of the atrocities are not done by any Muslims. I have seen enough stuff to convince me of this. For example I know that Laden (and his top men) is not with the Muslims and doesn't hang around in caves. He is a high roller of this world who is an agent to create an image that the powers can use as excuses for their wars. (I admit he gets followers but they are blind to it, and he pops along once in a blue moon to stir them up).

So, I agree with you that there are extremes but I don't agree that it has nothing to do with other agencies (not just the yankee one). Alot of the time they are invloved (and not just in 'Islamic' terrorism but in alot of other terrorism around the world).

As for propehecising his own death, I don't see how that would of helped anything? He was giving knowledge of what was to come in the future near the end times (and most of those prophecies have happened, including even 'people will dance with music on their heads' (ipods etc.), and 'a persons shoes will talk to him (those nike trainers that tell you how many steps you've walked etc'.)) I know they are funny prophecies cos most are more serious and big, but I like em!

5. Yes, I'm not doubting your knowledge, I shouldn't of said the crap I said. I know you know your stuff. I didn't think you'd of read Koran though! Not many folk have who argue about this subject.

Alot of these so called Islamic websites are dodgy though. I can't remember which ones now but they are big names. I also have a biography of Muhammad and it is the biggest book I got, it's frickin massive. Even bigger than me Oxford dictionary I think. I also have 3 translations of Koran and quite a few other books on it (good thing about them is they are cheap and I always been interested in them 3 religions I mentioned so I buy them now and then)

6. In my opinion it's not limited especially for living your life by. I think it covers everything for a human in society and does nothing but encourage good. I would say it is the best guide for a whole way of life I've come across and anyone who follows it properly I have massive respect for. I not seen that book you mention, what religion is that? I'll have a look soon.

7. I'm not anti-truth, I look at all-sorts of stuff. I just try to argue good things about Islam cos I get fed up with nearly everyone misunderstanding it. I also get fed up with the media war on it when they know very well who is behind most of these groups and atrocities (911 especially).

I will have to sift through me books and dvd's but i will get back about these scientists! There are many I've seen talk about it. Islam does describe how the universe started in my opinion. In simple terms though, not in a complcated way cos no-one would of understood any of it 1400 years ago!

These are the two quotes I remember : 1 "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the Earth were once joined together as one unit of Creation, before We clove them asunder?" (the meaning of 'clove' is 'to divide or split')

It is a scientific fact that the universe has come from one point and if we reversed time then everything would come back to one point. I think that above verse is amazingly accurate about the big bang!

Another scientific fact is that the universe is constantly expanding. Einstein is one of those who confirmed this. So here's the other verse I remember that I really like : "And the heavens We have built with power and force, and We are verily expanding them." Verses like these make me think alot

[BoneDog]

But Empty that's not what you written on this thread, and my response of laughter was to your:

'And if it weren't for Islam the scientific world would be nowhere near what it is today' As you can read, and that statement is cack mate!!

No matter what which ever background, man has always tried to find solutions and answers, it's human nature!!! I agree religious people were scientific and still are, but calling a holy book scientific is ridiculous, or believing a religion is the prime reason for scientific discovery!!! I was reading a funny story a while back, how south of spain and north african muslims were poineers in scientific strategies, and one of the leaders imprisoned a great scientist because he failed to solve an issue with the flooding of the nile. I will try and find it and post it on here, but my point is, science is a tool to find solutions to day to day issues, no matter what religion they are eg astrological poineers were required to guess seasons etc so farmers knew when to grow crops etc!!!!

I still stand by what I say about how Islamic scholars 1000 years ago changed science. They translated old Greek research and brought a whole new way of thinking to it and made many major scientific discoveries that were used by all the top European scientists up until very recent times.

Here's a quick quote on the subject : It is true that Muslims translated many books and writings of the ancients. However, Muslims soon realized that in the field of chemistry the ancients, mainly being alchemists, dealt primarily with speculation and mystery. Chemistry was not a science before the Muslims. The Muslims invented the scientific method and used it in their research tremendously. The historian Briffault's book, Making of Humanity, has been quoted in Dr. K Ajram's book, The Miracle of Islam Science: "Investigation, accumulation of positive knowledge, minute methods of science and prolonged observation were alien to Greek temperament. These were introduced to Europe by the Arabs. European science owes its existence to the Arabs." Will Durant notes that Muslims "introduced precise observation, controlled experiment, and careful records."

[Dr The Singh]

I still stand by what I say about how Islamic scholars 1000 years ago changed science. They translated old Greek research and brought a whole new way of thinking to it and made many major scientific discoveries that were used by all the top European scientists up until very recent times.

Here's a quick quote on the subject : It is true that Muslims translated many books and writings of the ancients. However, Muslims soon realized that in the field of chemistry the ancients, mainly being alchemists, dealt primarily with speculation and mystery. Chemistry was not a science before the Muslims. The Muslims invented the scientific method and used it in their research tremendously. The historian Briffault's book, Making of Humanity, has been quoted in Dr. K Ajram's book, The Miracle of Islam Science: "Investigation, accumulation of positive knowledge, minute methods of science and prolonged observation were alien to Greek temperament. These were introduced to Europe by the Arabs. European science owes its existence to the Arabs." Will Durant notes that Muslims "introduced precise observation, controlled experiment, and careful records."

I can agree that Muslims during this period did alot of good scientific research, but was it because of what was written in the quran or them being muslims are was it the society they lived in???

[BoneDog]

I can agree that Muslims during this period did alot of good scientific research, but was it because of what was written in the quran or them being muslims are was it the society they lived in???

The Koran does tell people to study things around them and in the universe and encourages scientific thought, but I agree with what you are saying.

The thing I'm trying to say is that just because people are religious (whatever religion) doesn't mean that they are not scientific as alot of people nowadyas tend to believe. The only part of science that religious people tend to have a problem with is the theory that mankind evolved from a chimpanzee!