So What's The Problem? - Pace

[marbelladave]

In Southampton's last game Rodriguez scored a super simple goal via a one-two into the box. It's one good tactic against packed defences, and it's something that we never seem to try. We have the players to do it, Schlupp and King especially (because they are accurate with a short, quick, crisp pass to the "wall" player, and are clinical finishers). I can't understand why we don't play a quick, intricate passing game around the box as I'm sure we would create more chances than we do at present.

We don't have enough players in the box to play a one-two........

[Ely fox]

The problem imo is lack of tactics in general and the manager not being able to motivate the players and to get them playing for him, wanting to do well for Pearson in every game, there has been far too much apathy this season and last imo from the players and management, mediocrity has been rewarded so to speak

[marbelladave]

The problem imo is lack of tactics in general and the manager not being able to motivate the players and to get them playing for him, wanting to do well for Pearson in every game, there has been far too much apathy this season and last imo from the players and management, mediocrity has been rewarded so to speak

NFP requires players to obey instructions and play in the role that he defines.

These roles are often so tightly defined that it strangles and negates the natural abilities of the players, particularly the more creative ones.

The players put up with it for a while but eventually get fed up and frustrated, we can see it in the frustrations and body language of players like Knockaert, Marshall and Nugent. They are not the only ones who feel this way, just the most demonstrative.

Eventually their commitment flags and we get to where we are today......

[woddyuk]

We dont use our pace to effect. When we break we go like bats out of hell till we reach half way line then decide to slow it down and play keep ball across the pitch. By which time opposition are back in numbers and quiet content for us to keep the ball knowing we cant break them down. We also dont play the ball into space behind full backs or between full backs and centre halfs to run onto. Ive lost count the amount of time ive seen a space of grass begging for a side foot ball into it for a striker or midfielder to run onto. Back to basics?? Its not about pretty football now.. Itd about rolling sleeves up and winning any which way. Grind out results, get nasty, whatever.. Its about points not performance.

[Johnny Cash]

Rather than dwell on whether Pearson is getting the sack or not, what do we all think is wrong with the team? We can talk about formations etc but for me it boils down to simply not having the squad. Many have mentioned that we lack a midfield general who can make a tackle, and i agree, but for me the biggest thing we lack is pace. Other than Dyer (when he plays!) we don't have any frightening pace in attacking positions. So many occasions this season the opposition have simply got tight to Wood, Nugent, Knockaert, Drinkwater and denied them the time and space to play, and for me this is because we have no threat in behind the opposition defence. Despite being able to score goals, Nugent and Wood don't have the pace to frighten defenders, therefore they can hold a higher line and squeeze against our midfield furthur up the pitch. I'm not saying we should sell everyone but i think we lack the options in the squad. Its not working for us at the minute but we simply don't have the personnel to be able to change how we play. i think teams in the league have worked this out and it has become very easy to stifle and frustrate us. For me, up front we are very one dimensional, with two players who prefer the ball to feet and aren't capable of spinning in behind and leaving the defenders for dead. In the wide positions, Marshall and Knockaert have shown moments of brilliance for us, but they have one thing in common, no pace. Obviously a short term solution for this would be to play Dyer, however i think we all agree we need someone with a bit more end product and technique to his game. Cardiff with Campbell, Watford with Vydra, Palace with Zaha all have exciting pace in forward positions with the quality to put teams to the sword, which has also allowed them to be effective on the counter when under the cosh.

As well as a ball winning midfielder we all lust over, i think this area needs addressing in the summer window. Having a striker on the pitch or on the bench with blistering pace and goal threat will give us that other dimension that teams will have to be wary of and adjust to. At the Brighton game i would like to see either Vardy or Schlupp given a chance up front. Both have a bit of pace (more than Wood/Nugent and may give Brighton something else to think about in behind their back four. What does everyone else think?

Chin up lads!

WYS

Oh paragraph, where art thou paragraph.

[Grewks]

The main problem is the 4-4-2.

There are 2 problems with it...

1) it can still work but you need the right players in the middle of the park, we have proved since pearson was last here that we don't have them.

2) There are many other formations which offer more attacking options and better defensive stability.

[Ely fox]

NFP requires players to obey instructions and play in the role that he defines.

These roles are often so tightly defined that it strangles and negates the natural abilities of the players, particularly the more creative ones.

The players put up with it for a while but eventually get fed up and frustrated, we can see it in the frustrations and body language of players like Knockaert, Marshall and Nugent. They are not the only ones who feel this way, just the most demonstrative.

Eventually their commitment flags and we get to where we are today......

good point there

[ashfosse]

I thought this was going to be another joke thread but as people seem to be taking it seriously I shall tell you. Sitting comfortably.........

For whatever reason (there are various views on this), since November we have become more and more conservative, by that I mean our setup and basic style of play. We set up deeper, and more rigidly, trying to 'tighten up' particularly against stronger sides and/or away from the KP.

This is particularly noticeable in wide areas, our 'wingers' are required to stay wide and keep our shape and to fall back and cover the fullback. The fullbacks themselves seem reluctant to break forward quickly so when we win possession in defence neither they, nor the wingers can get forward quickly enough and when they do they are easily picked up.

The result, no quick ball available out from defence so it is sideways and back, slowing up the transition and giving the opposition time to mark up and press the players in possession. More sideways and back, then hoof.

On the other hand, when we are playing well there is movement across the front line, particularly from the wide men, (Vardy too when he played) leaving space for the fullbacks to drive down flanks. The opposition know it is coming but we are too quick and too fluid for them to do much about it.

We are not being 'sussed' or tactically outplayed, we are bringing it on ourselves by our own style of play.......

IMO I think we have been on several occasions, and Pearson has failed to react to it. Teams are aware that we like to pass the ball out of defence and into midfield so they squeeze up the pitch (especially away from home) to negate this, knowing we have no pace up front to worry about. We then eventually just hoof it up to the head of Wood or into Nugent who have a defender tight to them and can’t control the ball. If we had some worrying pace up front then the oppo would certainly have to drop a bit deeper hence giving us the space to play into midfield.

We can’t change our style of play because we don’t have the variation in player, especially in attack. I think players like Wood, Nugent, Waghorn, Futacs are all one dimensional with no pace. Pearson has signed some good players in his time, but I think he’s had a western this season when it comes to strikers.

WYS

[BusheyFox]

I thought this was going to be another joke thread but as people seem to be taking it seriously I shall tell you. Sitting comfortably.........

For whatever reason (there are various views on this), since November we have become more and more conservative, by that I mean our setup and basic style of play. We set up deeper, and more rigidly, trying to 'tighten up' particularly against stronger sides and/or away from the KP.

This is particularly noticeable in wide areas, our 'wingers' are required to stay wide and keep our shape and to fall back and cover the fullback. The fullbacks themselves seem reluctant to break forward quickly so when we win possession in defence neither they, nor the wingers can get forward quickly enough and when they do they are easily picked up.

The result, no quick ball available out from defence so it is sideways and back, slowing up the transition and giving the opposition time to mark up and press the players in possession. More sideways and back, then hoof.

On the other hand, when we are playing well there is movement across the front line, particularly from the wide men, (Vardy too when he played) leaving space for the fullbacks to drive down flanks. The opposition know it is coming but we are too quick and too fluid for them to do much about it.

We are not being 'sussed' or tactically outplayed, we are bringing it on ourselves by our own style of play.......

[BusheyFox]

This is exactly what has happened in the last few months. I remember Schlupp, when playing left back in December, , being castigated by NP for advancing over the half way line and being told to stay back and pass sideways. The whole team appeared to be under orders to play conservatively......Marshall admitted as much in an interview a while back. Both he and King, whilst not exactly prolific goal scorers, at least found the net regularly, but now we hardly see them in the penalty area. Konchesky has only a left foot and when he is unable to hoof it towards Wood ( who is no Steve Howard) having been closed down by the opposition, he is forced to turn back and play it back to Schmeical. As has been said, there is no creativity in midfield but with the current mindset we have no hope whatsoever of reaching the play offs. It seems NP has been given the dreaded vote of confidence today and thus our only chance of finishing in the top six has gone. Our only hope had been to get someone in ( not Ince, , Warnock , MON or Hughes )who would have freed us from these tactical constraints which NP seems unable , or unwilling, to remove. It is only Schlupp who looks at all threatening and yet he started with Dyer and Knockhart on Monday, and the latter has not performed for us for weeks.

The owners , I hope, realise the situation is critical and it may be that they are still trying to negotiate to get a new man in and will not sack NP until they have a ready made replacement ( as Sunderland did).

The last few weeks have been a disgrace . We had an excellent chance of promotion, but have thrown it away. I just can't see NP being able to change tactics and therefore we are going to struggle to even finish in the top ten. The players must wonder what is going on, many being asked to play an unnatural game (Nugent and Kane on the wing for instance) and it is so frustrating. Goodness knows what the season ticket sales will be like for the new season.

[marbelladave]

IMO I think we have been on several occasions, and Pearson has failed to react to it. Teams are aware that we like to pass the ball out of defence and into midfield so they squeeze up the pitch (especially away from home) to negate this, knowing we have no pace up front to worry about. We then eventually just hoof it up to the head of Wood or into Nugent who have a defender tight to them and can’t control the ball. If we had some worrying pace up front then the oppo would certainly have to drop a bit deeper hence giving us the space to play into midfield.

We can’t change our style of play because we don’t have the variation in player, especially in attack. I think players like Wood, Nugent, Waghorn, Futacs are all one dimensional with no pace. Pearson has signed some good players in his time, but I think he’s had a western this season when it comes to strikers.

WYS

Several people seem convinced of this and it keeps getting repeated, so I will ask you what I ask them, when exactly did that happen, when did we get sussed?

Seriously, give me a game........

[marbelladave]

This is exactly what has happened in the last few months. I remember Schlupp, when playing left back in December, , being castigated by NP for advancing over the half way line and being told to stay back and pass sideways. The whole team appeared to be under orders to play conservatively......Marshall admitted as much in an interview a while back. Both he and King, whilst not exactly prolific goal scorers, at least found the net regularly, but now we hardly see them in the penalty area. Konchesky has only a left foot and when he is unable to hoof it towards Wood ( who is no Steve Howard) having been closed down by the opposition, he is forced to turn back and play it back to Schmeical. As has been said, there is no creativity in midfield but with the current mindset we have no hope whatsoever of reaching the play offs. It seems NP has been given the dreaded vote of confidence today and thus our only chance of finishing in the top six has gone. Our only hope had been to get someone in ( not Ince, , Warnock , MON or Hughes )who would have freed us from these tactical constraints which NP seems unable , or unwilling, to remove. It is only Schlupp who looks at all threatening and yet he started with Dyer and Knockhart on Monday, and the latter has not performed for us for weeks.

The owners , I hope, realise the situation is critical and it may be that they are still trying to negotiate to get a new man in and will not sack NP until they have a ready made replacement ( as Sunderland did).

The last few weeks have been a disgrace . We had an excellent chance of promotion, but have thrown it away. I just can't see NP being able to change tactics and therefore we are going to struggle to even finish in the top ten. The players must wonder what is going on, many being asked to play an unnatural game (Nugent and Kane on the wing for instance) and it is so frustrating. Goodness knows what the season ticket sales will be like for the new season.

Very fair comment.

Just to add that I think that our form in the last 6 - 8 weeks has been terrible and that some of our players simply do not know what to do for the best. They play to NFP's instructions but the results are awful, few if any of the players believe in what they are doing, and it shows, no desire or intensity whatsoever, the body language speaks volumes.

It didn't happen all at once, they have been worn down by poor management over a good few months and now they have pretty much had enough and the team is thoroughly and, I think irrevocably broken.

Much as I do not want the upheaval of a new manager, I do not think we are going anywhere with the one we have......

[ashfosse]

Several people seem convinced of this and it keeps getting repeated, so I will ask you what I ask them, when exactly did that happen, when did we get sussed?

Seriously, give me a game........

Charlton at home. You can’t argue that Charlton have better or more talented players than we have, but Powell knew how to play against us and he tactically outclassed Pearson. They denied us space in the middle of the pitch and hit us with the direct ball to you know who. When this happens you have to change your game plan but we don’t have the capacity to do this. This also happens at a lot of away games. Teams are aggressive against our midfield and press us high up the pitch as we simply don’t have the pace to threaten them in behind. We are too one dimensional and teams have worked it out. I can guarantee this is what Brighton will do this weekend. Swamp the midfield, don’t allow us any space or time, and press us high up the pitch.

I’m not saying this is the sole problem. I agree that confidence is low and players aren’t hitting form, but our lack of options is certainly a factor.

[marbelladave]

Charlton at home. You can’t argue that Charlton have better or more talented players than we have, but Powell knew how to play against us and he tactically outclassed Pearson. They denied us space in the middle of the pitch and hit us with the direct ball to you know who. When this happens you have to change your game plan but we don’t have the capacity to do this. This also happens at a lot of away games. Teams are aggressive against our midfield and press us high up the pitch as we simply don’t have the pace to threaten them in behind. We are too one dimensional and teams have worked it out. I can guarantee this is what Brighton will do this weekend. Swamp the midfield, don’t allow us any space or time, and press us high up the pitch.

I’m not saying this is the sole problem. I agree that confidence is low and players aren’t hitting form, but our lack of options is certainly a factor.

Not having a go but you need to go back and read my posts, specifically the post you first responded to.

I have, quite clearly, laid out my hypothesis as to how things have gone so badly wrong and my pivotal point is, well, pivotal.

We went top of the league in late october playing positive attacking football but having got there NFP chose (for whatever reason) to start setting us up more defensively. This effectively handed the initiative to the opposition and we have been on the back foot ever since.

The point I have been making is that, prior to this change, we were never 'sussed', never really outplayed and not once soundly beaten. After we made the change, ie the Palace (home) game onwards, we became much easier to play against and the better teams started giving us some really tough games. I commented on our more negative setup at the time, but it took a few weeks for the full implications of what was happening to really hit home.

We started to get dominated as early as november/december, Watford, Millwall etc, not because we had been worked out but because we sed up deep, conceded the midfield and let them dominate. Entirely our own fault.......

[ashfosse]

Oh paragraph, where art thou paragraph.

[Lcfc Jordan]

saw it against barnsley, Chris O'Grady tore us a new one

[Bob Weasel Fox]

[ashfosse]

Not having a go but you need to go back and read my posts, specifically the post you first responded to.

I have, quite clearly, laid out my hypothesis as to how things have gone so badly wrong and my pivotal point is, well, pivotal.

We went top of the league in late october playing positive attacking football but having got there NFP chose (for whatever reason) to start setting us up more defensively. This effectively handed the initiative to the opposition and we have been on the back foot ever since.

The point I have been making is that, prior to this change, we were never 'sussed', never really outplayed and not once soundly beaten. After we made the change, ie the Palace (home) game onwards, we became much easier to play against and the better teams started giving us some really tough games. I commented on our more negative setup at the time, but it took a few weeks for the full implications of what was happening to really hit home.

We started to get dominated as early as november/december, Watford, Millwall etc, not because we had been worked out but because we sed up deep, conceded the midfield and let them dominate. Entirely our own fault.......

Yes don’t think I don’t read posts before replying, but I’m not arguing against that. I agree that in certain games, particular away, we appear to set up too defensively and not give ourselves a chance. But what my point is and the point of the thread, is to highlight the lack of pace up front. When we do set up deep (as you have said for whatever reason), we don’t have the pace up front to punish teams when they come onto us. Hence my point my being one dimensional up front and easy to play against, we don’t have options.

Poyet would have watched us against Barnsley and will know exactly how to play against us. No pace up front, so lets get tight to the strikers, squeeze them high up the pitch and not let them play….sussed.

[marbelladave]

Yes don’t think I don’t read posts before replying, but I’m not arguing against that. I agree that in certain games, particular away, we appear to set up too defensively and not give ourselves a chance. But what my point is and the point of the thread, is to highlight the lack of pace up front. When we do set up deep (as you have said for whatever reason), we don’t have the pace up front to punish teams when they come onto us. Hence my point my being one dimensional up front and easy to play against, we don’t have options.

Poyet would have watched us against Barnsley and will know exactly how to play against us. No pace up front, so lets get tight to the strikers, squeeze them high up the pitch and not let them play….sussed.

We do not have much pace up front and haven't had any all season, didn't stop us getting to the top of the table though did it.......

The way we played back in the autumn gave us pace as a team, ie moving the ball quickly by using an aggressive passing game, meant that our front men did not need to be lightning as we were not hitting long balls for them to chase.

We moved the ball quickly and played into feet, and it was very effective, despite a strike force consisting of Nugent and the apparently hopeless Vardy.

We are now playing hoofball to the disinterested Nugent and the largely immobile Wood and you are complaining about their lack of pace when what you should be complaining about is why the hell are we playing hoofball.......

[Legend_in_blue]

This is it exactly Dave but some people don't get it. I've called someone delusional in another thread because they are being far too overly optimistic about our "great chances of promotion being 2 pts behind 6th".

Fact of the matter is the way in which our football has transformed over the course of the season is nothing short of criminal when you consider how effective we were as a unit early season. But then again Pearson puts this down to "spoiling the fans". The mindset is wrong and I think the players are frustrated by being limited in the way they are being instructed to play as a unit.

[He's not bald]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz not pace, only one problem Brillo pad and his tictacs!

[ACF]

Maybe the lack of pace, and the poor form, is down to the other teams being aware of what a lethal combination Nugent and Wood actually are, and them employing tactics against them and Knocky, DD, Marshall etc.

We have a very strong squad, other teams are desperate to beat us.

[dynamark]

lethal! fans topping themselves all over.Marshall looks half asleep and knocky bless him keeps on showing for the ball and trying but finding no team mates at present.

Im not at all confident we can get back to good from I feel a veeeeery large slice of luck is going to be required

[marbelladave]

Maybe the lack of pace, and the poor form, is down to the other teams being aware of what a lethal combination Nugent and Wood actually are, and them employing tactics against them and Knocky, DD, Marshall etc.

We have a very strong squad, other teams are desperate to beat us.

lethal! fans topping themselves all over.Marshall looks half asleep and knocky bless him keeps on showing for the ball and trying but finding no team mates at present.

Im not at all confident we can get back to good from I feel a veeeeery large slice of luck is going to be required

In all honesty, teams are not having to do much to beat us right now. The performances and results over the las 8 - 10 weeks have left us shredded, all confidence and belief has gone, the body language is terrible.

Most of the players do put in the effort, but it is uncoordinated and directionless. They find themselves given instructions and tactics the neither like nor believe in, and when they do not work, as has been the case for some time, they find themselves abused by the fans and told to work harder by the boss who put them in this situation in the first place.

There are a lot of very frustrated and annoyed players out there, from Marshall and Wood's apparent lack of effort, Knockaerts arm waving frustration to the normally reliable Morgan and Konchesky making elementary mistakes.

Sadly I think things have deteriorated beyond the point of salvation, we could revive and earn a playoff spot but I would be very surprised (and delighted) if that happened........

[BusheyFox]

Excellent post once again. You seem to be one of the few people on here who has grasped what has happened to us and can write sensibly.

It does seem now that NP has been given a stay of execution which sadly means the season is over.Like you I will be delighted to be proved wrong, but as others have said, Poyet will be as tactically astute tomorrow as Chris Powell was a few weeks ago. If he is worth his salt, NP has to prove he can deliver tactically tomorrow. We await with interest.