Nelson Mandela

[Alf Bentley]

"Economic efficiency": The apartheid regime was economically enriching for those who ran and benefited from it, but certainly not for the excluded majority. You could argue that the Nazi regime was economically efficient for many Germans in the 1930s. Certainly, the slave trade brought great riches to many in this country. Should we therefore support Nazism and/or slavery?

 

"Lack of experience": Of course the black majority lacked experience; they'd been excluded from democratic representation for decades!!! Even so, in his first government Mandela included white representatives of the regime that had jailed him. If Hitler had run Britain for decades and imprisoned you for 27 years, how many of his cohorts would you want in your cabinet to boost experience?! Maybe the blame lies with the nature of the apartheid regime - and its failure to ease a transition to majority rule? That's not to deny the many errors of the ANC in government (notably, building a black ruling and middle class, but not doing enough re. the black poor, crime etc.).

 

"Terrorists": If the ANC were terrorists for fighting the minority apartheid regime that excluded the majority from democratic society, then so were the French Resistance for attacking the Nazi occupiers. Re. "necklacing"/Stompie Moeketsi murder etc.: inexcusable conduct, even when living in fear and paranoia under a police state. Winnie Mandela and others within the ANC were implicated to varying degrees. I don't recall Nelson Mandela ever being implicated, though. Of course, he was in prison when a lot of that went on, so it would have been up to the apartheid authorities to deal with the culprits.

 

"White flight/failed transition": Mandela was certainly handed a poisoned chalice when he took over, having to reform enough to satisfy blacks who'd been excluded for decades, but not so much that white business/money took flight. You'd need to be better informed than me (or most on Foxes Talk) to analyse how well/badly he managed that. But, suffice to say that at the time many expected a bloody racial civil war and economic armageddon. Merely avoiding that was an achievement - and while South Africa has massive problems (many of which arose under Mbeki & Zuma), it is certainly no Zimbabwe.

[Alf Bentley]

 

Power currupting It still doesn't answer why Mandela decided to ignore the rise of HIV though, not that I ever expect anyone to ask the question again. Was he that brutal and sinister he was happy for it to spread for population control?

 

 

Too much of a religious backlash amongst the black community? The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for for letting HIV spread in Africa in the way it has done. 

 

 

The problem addressing AIDS seems to have existed throughout Africa, though, regardless of the prevailing religion. While the Catholic Church and political leaders, including Mandela, bear some of the responsibility for this, there seems to be something deeper at work - and something deeper than just poverty and ignorance - maybe the macho culture?

 

Re. Mandela's attitude: It is true that he seemed to wrongly spend years avoiding the issue when in power, but after that he was quite a strong advocate of action on AIDS, not least after his own son died from AIDS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4151159.stm

[Finnegan]

Any excuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqB3F6N527U

[Guest MattP]

The problem addressing AIDS seems to have existed throughout Africa, though, regardless of the prevailing religion. While the Catholic Church and political leaders, including Mandela, bear some of the responsibility for this, there seems to be something deeper at work - and something deeper than just poverty and ignorance - maybe the macho culture?

 

Re. Mandela's attitude: It is true that he seemed to wrongly spend years avoiding the issue when in power, but after that he was quite a strong advocate of action on AIDS, not least after his own son died from AIDS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4151159.stm

 

It's a shame it took something like that to happen to him. I've just done a google and he has actually shown severe remorse over his action on AIDS whilst in power since.

 

Re  a Civil War, that was never going to happen, you ask any white person who has fled and they will tell you their only concern after the end was keeping them family safe and trying to find enough money to get yourself in a gated community if you didn't live in Bloemfontein or on the Cape.

 

Fair point on Zuma, an utterly appalling choice of President no better than his brother to the North.

[Rincewind]

Finn I can't argue against anything Stephe Fry said in that vid.

[flowwolf]

He will never die his legacy will, hopefully live on for ever. I know some people question how he achieved what he did, and the end doesn't always justify the means but the fact is what he did achieve was really cannot be understated.

You could call him a freedom fighter or a terrorist, but what cannot be disputed is that he was the father of modern South Africa, the strongest and arguably the most important country in Africa.

 

 

That doesn't say a lot though does it the whole place ( Africa ) is a shit hole.

[flowwolf]

Any excuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqB3F6N527U

 

 

Excellent ! I now look forward to My Fry weighing in to Islam with the same no holds barred rhetoric . Though I won't hold my breath as it maybe sometime never.

[Guest MattP]

Excellent ! I now look forward to My Fry weighing in to Islam with the same no holds barred rhetoric . Though I won't hold my breath as it maybe sometime never.

Good luck with that one.

These champagne atheists who parade their opinions on the BBC are just as bad as the politicians when it comes to bending over to Islam.

Least Pat Condell is consistent across the board.

[flowwolf]

Good luck with that one.

These champagne atheists who parade their opinions on the BBC are just as bad as the politicians when it comes to bending over to Islam.

Least Pat Condell is consistent across.

Fry better hope Jerry Adams and Martin McGuiness never get to see his opinions on their faith.

[leicsmac]

Fry better hope Jerry Adams and Martin McGuiness never get to see his opinions on their faith.

 

Damn it, I've used the Gerry Adams skit once already in this thread, can't do it again.

 

I think the one thing all religious fundamentalists share is a lack of sense of humour.

[flowwolf]

Damn it, I've used the Gerry Adams skit once already in this thread, can't do it again.

 

I think the one thing all religious fundamentalists share is a lack of sense of humour.

 

 

Are you saying Muhammad never laughed ? look at the clothes he told them to wear . 

[Rincewind]

Who was he referring to when he talked about women being treated as second class citizens then?

It was a debate which allowed anyone that disagreed to speak out. He said he has nothing against individuals that want to do good in the name of their faith.