Nelson Mandela

[Trav Le Bleu]

Pretty sure most people on here would advocate "terrorism" if they, their families and their communities were being treated as second class citizens by a violently oppressive regime. 

 

What's this got to do with the USA?

 

 

 

 

 

Or us for that matter.

[sphericalfox]

Pretty sure most people on here would advocate "terrorism" if they, their families and their communities were being treated as second class citizens by a violently oppressive regime. 

You're not quoting Gerry Adams are you?  

[leicsmac]

You're not quoting Gerry Adams are you?  

 

Any excuse. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4

[Finnegan]

Any excuse. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4

 

beat me to it.

[Guest MattP]

Any excuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4

[Guest Bilo]

Chris Morris and Steve Coogan is a comedic marriage made in heaven.

[anotherharboroughfox]

He's was a criminal

 

that grammar is criminal.

[DennisNedry]

He turned SA from a divided and segregated yet fairly succesful country, into an intergrated and equal shithole.

And his methods were at the least questionable.

 

To be applauded? Perhaps, but I certainly won't shed a tear.

[leicsmac]

He turned SA from a divided and segregated yet fairly succesful country, into an intergrated and equal shithole.

And his methods were at the least questionable.

 

To be applauded? Perhaps, but I certainly won't shed a tear.

 

Yes, because violently repressive regimes can be seen as a success if they're economically successful and appear to be maintaining 'law and order'. 

[Guest MattP]

Yes, because violently repressive regimes can be seen as a success if they're economically successful and appear to be maintaining 'law and order'. 

 

You could argue that after considering what South Africa has descended into since that a 'brutal regime' was exactly what was needed to maintain Law and Order.

[Bobby Hundreds]

[Rincewind]

I rember years ago when I used to visit an Aunt/ One of my cousins had lived in South Africa and he was the biggest racist I had known. He used to say how he loved to clap hisa hands and shout 'boy' and his servant would bring him what he wanted.

I remember having an argument with him about football players. It was about the time Clyde Best was playing and he said whites are the best players because they invented the game. I said what about Pele?

'Oh there is always one exception.

He was a mirror image of Alf Garnett. I avoided discussions with him.

[leicsmac]

You could argue that after considering what South Africa has descended into since that a 'brutal regime' was exactly what was needed to maintain Law and Order.

 

That's one point of view. But personally I've never thought the idea that 'the ends justify the means' is a good one. It's been used too many times to justify the most vile atrocities.

[Captain...]

That's one point of view. But personally I've never thought the idea that 'the ends justify the means' is a good one. It's been used too many times to justify the most vile atrocities.

But is it applicable when talking about Mandela?

It should be that the means is justified by those that end it.

I think in the case of South Africa it was a case of the least bad situation, I don't want to say the lesser of 2 evils, as I don't think that Mandela was evil, but some of his associates arguably were.

[MPH]

The problem wasn't particularly the black people in south Africa being uneducated, it was the white AND black  people in South Africa being uneducated.

 

 

And what I mean by that is ending apartheid so suddenly and abruptly, no one was prepared for it. There was little education from either side of the line.

 

 

I know a lady even today, from South Africa  who  is in her 50's WHO IS A TEACHER  no less that insists that "the blacks of South Africa" are not even human. That they are a completely different species to her, not race but species! I just had to get up and walk out,

 

But this is the generation that grew up at the time apartheid was abolished and who had been listening to everything their parents told them.

[Rincewind]

Same as my cousin. He lived there when whie British and others were ruling after centuries of slavery and foreigned companies ran the place. If anything Mandela highlighted the injustice and refused to back down. He had to gain support from whites as well as black. The whites did not want to be told what to do by what they considered a 'sub-human' species so resisted.

If they had been 'educated' change could have been brought in peacefully which is what Mandela wanted.

By jailing him made the rest of world wake up and support him.

I think he would have accepted a gradual change if not branded as a terrorist.

[Guest MattP]

Same as my cousin. He lived there when whie British and others were ruling after centuries of slavery and foreigned companies ran the place. If anything Mandela highlighted the injustice and refused to back down. He had to gain support from whites as well as black. The whites did not want to be told what to do by what they considered a 'sub-human' species so resisted.

If they had been 'educated' change could have been brought in peacefully which is what Mandela wanted.

By jailing him made the rest of world wake up and support him.

I think he would have accepted a gradual change if not branded as a terrorist.

No matter how educated the change was there were never a chance the policies that the ANC implemented into South Africa were going to create anything but chaos.

 

White people aren't just going to stand back and watch their businesses taken from them through fear, intimidation and violence and stay put to support that country, the supporters of the ANC werent going to start behaving like civilised people while they realised they could get ahead through corruption and violence.

 

They were still singing 'shoot the boar' as an official anthem of the youth wing of the party 5 years ago and people still can't see them for what they are.

 

They have the country they deserve now.

[leicsmac]

No matter how educated the change was there were never a chance the policies that the ANC implemented into South Africa were going to create anything but chaos.

 

White people aren't just going to stand back and watch their businesses taken from them through fear, intimidation and violence and stay put to support that country, the supporters of the ANC werent going to start behaving like civilised people while they realised they could get ahead through corruption and violence.

 

They were still singing 'shoot the boar' as an official anthem of the youth wing of the party 5 years ago and people still can't see them for what they are.

 

They have the country they deserve now.

 

And there is the problem. The choice between a near-fascist minority-rule oppressive government, or the chaos, as you put it, that has followed.

 

Personally I despise authoritarianism and the abuse of power that it entails, but I'm no lover of chaos either.

 

Devil and the deep blue sea.

[Finnegan]

And who really instigated all that animosity and violence?

[Guest MattP]

And who really instigated all that animosity and violence?

 

The racist regime before and during the troubles and the ANC during the troubles and after.

[Finnegan]

And there is the problem. The choice between a near-fascist minority-rule oppressive government, or the chaos, as you put it, that has followed.

Personally I despise authoritarianism and the abuse of power that it entails, but I'm no lover of anarchy either.

Devil and the deep blue sea.

Woah now. Chaos and anarchy definitely not the same thing.

[leicsmac]

Woah now. Chaos and anarchy definitely not the same thing.

 

Yeah, sorry about that. Playing a bit fast and loose with words there. 

 

Perhaps I should have said I'm no lover of chaos, instead.

 

The racist regime before and during the troubles and the ANC during the troubles and after.

 

So basically, power corrupts. Yep. Acton had it right.

[Guest MattP]

So basically, power corrupts. Yep. Acton had it right.

 

Certainly does.

 

I still found it bizarre the ANC intended to fcuk over their own people though.

 

You can see why the whites took it upon themselves to rule the way they did, they know they were done for in Africa soon as it turned and the farming community in South Africa and Zimbabwe has shown that.

 

Power currupting It still doesn't answer why Mandela decided to ignore the rise of HIV though, not that I ever expect anyone to ask the question again. Was he that brutal and sinister he was happy for it to spread for population control?

[leicsmac]

Certainly does.

 

I still found it bizarre the ANC intended to fcuk over their own people though.

 

You can see why the whites took it upon themselves to rule the way they did, they know they were done for in Africa soon as it turned and the farming community in South Africa and Zimbabwe has shown that.

 

Power currupting It still doesn't answer why Mandela decided to ignore the rise of HIV though, not that I ever expect anyone to ask the question again. Was he that brutal and sinister he was happy for it to spread for population control?

 

Too much of a religious backlash amongst the black community? The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for for letting HIV spread in Africa in the way it has done. 

 

You know, I heard tell of a rumour that the apartheid government in the mid-80's (when HIV first became known as a big problem) attempted to synthesise the HIV virus to make it waterborne and to release it into the black water supply for population control. Probably just hearsay but still...

 

If the white people were smart, they probably should have known that the situation was unsustainable and untenable before the shite hit the fan.

[Guest MattP]

Too much of a religious backlash amongst the black community? The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for for letting HIV spread in Africa in the way it has done. 

 

You know, I heard tell of a rumour that the apartheid government in the mid-80's (when HIV first became known as a big problem) attempted to synthesise the HIV virus to make it waterborne and to release it into the black water supply for population control. Probably just hearsay but still...

 

If the white people were smart, they probably should have known that the situation was unsustainable and untenable before the shite hit the fan.

 

I think they probably did. It's hard to let go of something you have though.

 

Totally agree on the Catholic Church, what have allowed to happen and what they have encouraged across Africa is a stain that will haunt them for hundreds of years.