Alf Bentley

I don't know.... Maybe the brutal assailant has exceptionally long fingernails? The poor victim could have blood pouring from the back of his neck that will be pooling on the pitch within 2 seconds of the clip....

I take your point, Kopf, in that it is now clear that various declared Leave policies would require us to leave the SM/CU. But you partly make my counter-argument for me: - The Leave campaign was not explicit as they feared that it might lose them votes. The result might have been different if they had been explicit (see the 2016 poll findings quoted at point 38 of my Twitter link). - Us lot in this thread might see an implication that we'd have to leave the SM/CU but, put bluntly, we're probably among the 5% who are best informed about Brexit. Most voters (Leave or Remain) wouldn't see the implication. - Even so, as you say, for a long time after the referendum a lot of cake having-and-eating was being proposed. Indeed, the Chequers cherry-picking on goods comes close to staying in a bit of the SM - and some Leave politicians (e.g. Field) advocated staying in the SM. - It is a valid interpretation of Brexit to call for us to leave the SM/CU, but it's only one valid interpretation. It's just as valid to call for a Norway-style SM, Turkish CU model or whatever. The only mandate is for Brexit. Our democratically-elected parliament & govt need to determine how Brexit proceeds. Neither the Leave nor the Remain campaigns were in a position to promise anything beyond Leave/Remain. Both were referendum campaigns. Neither were the government. Both campaigns included cabinet ministers. Sorry, but allowing Cameron & Osborne to define the Leave campaign is ridiculous, when they were on the opposite side and were widely recognised to be running a Project Fear campaign to scare people off voting Leave. The current govt say that Corbyn/McDonnell's economic policies would ruin the economy. If Labour win the next election, does that mean that they're obliged to ruin the economy? Please see my reply above to Kopf re. your second point. I'll leave it there for a while and return to real life as I've made my points and listened to opposing points. In the interests of challenging your opinions, though, do have a look at that long Twitter link that I posted, which makes my case, with supporting evidence, better than I ever could. Have a good day and a good week, and all that I have to add is...........................

The analysis section here is interesting: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45622161 Leadership wanted to restrict any referendum to the terms of Brexit, but were effectively over-ruled by the membership. So, a Remain box in a referendum would still be an option - and the Eurosceptic leadership would come under a lot of pressure to include it, if it ever happens, when a majority of Labour MPs, members and voters all support that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: everyone has their biases, me included. I wasn't giving Matt "hate" either, just criticising him - as he sometimes criticises me. Even when we disagree (most, but not all of the time), I think he often makes intelligent, thought-provoking posts - and when we met a couple of times a few years back, I found him excellent company. I never constantly repped Toddy's posts either. He did/does some very good posts, which I've repped, but is/was OTT in posting too many Tory-bashing Guardian articles. If I didn't pull him up on that (and I've an idea that I did once - though it may have been Rincewind), it didn't equate to universal approval of everything he posted. Maybe it is a bias on my part, that I'll challenge someone going OTT with right-wing posts, but not someone going OTT with left-wing posts? If so, I think the same applies to you, Strokes....I don't recall you often challenging Matt or Webbo (what's happened to Webbo, btw? Has he joined a Trappist Order as far as the Politics thread is concerned, only appearing in Music and Quizzes? I'd gain a lot of time by doing the same.....soon be time for another self-ban ). Anyway, my point against Matt wasn't really about the volume of anti-Labour posts. It was about dishonest propaganda drowning out other stuff. Labour and anti-semitism was a valid issue to raise, particularly when Corbyn handled the problem very badly. But raising the issue time and time again, even when next to nothing new had happened, was OTT. He was taking a valid issue and using it to discredit the party he opposed, while also drowning out other stuff (including vital issues like Brexit or Labour economic policy, fair grounds for critical debate of Labour policy). I took particular exception to the dishonest argument that the Leave campaign made it clear that we'd be leaving the Single Market and Customs Union (and it's downright bizarre to justifiably depict leading Remain campaigners as a bunch of liars - and then to partly base your case on their statements. ). Using the word "dishonest" might seem harsh, but in a way it's a veiled compliment. I know that Matt is intelligent and well-informed enough to know that his claim is false propaganda. It also equates to an anti-democratic attempt to steamroller opinion into the false belief that there's already a mandate for us to leave the SU & CU. There isn't a mandate for that - or for us to stay in the SU & CM or for any other sort of Brexit. There's a mandate for Brexit and that's it. It's then down to our democratically-elected representatives to sort it out - unless they hand it back to the electorate. For about the fifth time, here's the Vote Leave web site: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/ I've had another look and cannot see any reference to us leaving the SM or CU....can anyone else? If the Leave position was clear, surely it would be on their official web site? They're clear about plenty else: £350m per week extra for NHS/national priorities; cut in VAT on energy bills; "Turkey is joining the EU"; "the EU has failed to do a trade deal with Japan"; border control; points-based immigration system etc. I found one section in which they criticise how the SM operates....but then say nothing about leaving it. The Leave position was unclear - and In/Out of EU was the only thing on the ballot paper. The rest is for our reps to sort out. Here's a complete demolition of the lie that there's any mandate for us to leave the SM/CU (or for any other sort of Brexit). It's long but worth following through from Point 1 to 44 (). It includes polls just before/after the referendum showing that voters, including Leave voters didn't expect to leave the SM (point 38), clips of Leave politicians adopting a range of positions during the campaign and after the vote, legislation describing different post-Brexit options available to politicians, Vote Leave docs making it clear that leaving the EU & maximising turnout was it's sole priority, mainstream media making it clear that the nature of Brexit was down to the democratically-elected politicians and had not been resolved by the referendum campaign etc.

I take your point that "Don't Stand Me Down" is a contender for best Dexys album - and arguably has more stand-out songs. But "One Day I'm Going To Soar" works brilliantly as a whole, I think - almost like an opera (and I don't like opera, sorry to get confusing). No point quibbling, anyway. Both outstanding works - and the first two albums aren't half bad either. I'd put "Soul Rebels" at a similar high level, maybe "Too-Rye-Ay" a fraction lower (9/10 instead of 10/10). I do really like the last album, too, and your Irish Embassy video was a reminder of how good some of its songs are - and it's a brave experiment - but it maybe lacks a little consistency. Rowland is one of very few people I'd categorise as a true genius - and for the reasons that you express: his quest to express absolute emotional truth and to achieve the very highest possible music quality....so I'll join you in the w@nker stocks and face the rotten tomatoes! The quality of Dexys live performances is testimony to that attitude. It seems to have sent him a bit bonkers at times and has doubtless made his life a lot more tormented and less remunerative than if he'd put out a "very good, but not outstanding" album every 2-3 years. The quality of his/their output more than compensates for the lack of quantity, though. Not many acts produce at least 4 genuinely outstanding albums. I've never even heard the solo album with the dress and lingerie, a criminal oversight on my part. Do you know it? Your mention of "There there, my dear" meant that I had to remind myself.....so I'll remind others (though technically this might be 1979, not 80s):

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I've repeatedly accepted that Remain campaign leaders made this claim. But both you and I know that their claims were tactical - part of the disgraceful Project Fear attempt to scare people into voting Remain. I've also repeatedly accepted that Gove made his opinion clear - one of the few honest Brexiteer politicians. The Boris clip is the same one that you posted before and that I mentioned above - about 10-12 days before the vote, when he was challenged for his opinion.....which he had obviously NOT made clear before. Why ask him otherwise? I don't know about Leadsom and don't know when her clip comes from. Maybe she was another like Gove? If I can be arsed later, I'll dredge up further clips of Leave campaigners avoiding the question or considering staying in the SM, opting for the Norway option or whatever. For now, here's the Vote Leave web site: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/ Last time you raised this spurious claim, I had checked that site and could find no reference to leaving the SM/CU. Please point me to where it says that.

I've already agreed with your second point. It was ignored and treated as an irritant for far too long, and not tackled. Hopefully it is now finally being tackled. We'll see..... I've yet to hear what the Tories are doing in response to Baroness Warsi's accusations of institutional Islamophobia in the Tory Party. Have you? As far as I'm aware, Bob Blackman hasn't been suspended for associating with anti-Muslim extremists, has he? I disagree with your first point. I think the problem relates to a particular Hard Left mindset, the black-and-white world view that I described earlier: Israelis bad, Palestinians good etc. I don't like that way of thinking. Also, in a minority of cases it extends into blatant antisemitism - moving from kneejerk condemnation of Israel to talk of Jewish conspiracies etc, though that is a tiny minority that exists in any organisation. What I do accept is that kneejerk anti-Israel attitudes have spread within the Labour Party with the recent domination of Corbyn's crew. I don't see that as institutional, though I do see it as wrong and dangerous. I haven't been active in the Labour Party for years, but was active in the 80s and 90s, so am familiar with the mindset. Such people see there being "good Jews" who oppose Israeli policies against Palestinians: sieges, violence, land occupation etc. Then they see the majority as "bad Jews" who support Israel. Hopefully that thinking will now be rolled back in favour of greater nuance - likewise the anti-Islamic attitudes of some on the Right, including within the Tory Party.

You're back to this dishonest argument yet again, are you? You've already made clear that you view the then govt & Remain campaign (Cameron, Osborne & co) as a bunch of liars, responsible for the dishonest Project Fear - and I'd agree with you to a fair extent. So why do you persist in quoting them as a reliable source for the claim that a Brexit vote inevitably meant leaving the Customs Union and Single Market? That was just part of Project Fear, wasn't it? As for those in charge of the Leave campaign, I'll just repeat the same questions as before: - If it was clear that we'd be leaving the CU & SM, why was it not on the Vote Leave web site? Still isn't, last time I looked. Surely they'd have mentioned such an important policy? - When you said this before, you supported your claim with a video of Boris about 10 days before the vote, being pressed as to whether he agreed with Gove that we'd have to leave the SM/CU. Only at that stage did he agree that Gove was right. Why was it even a question if the Leave campaign had made it clear? The answer is because they hadn't made it clear. Some, like Gove, had made their views clear, others were talking about the Norway Model, Swiss Model, even Swiss Model. The dominant position was that Leave campaigners tried to avoid answering the question as they feared that it would lose them votes. The only thing that was clear from the referendum was the vote to leave the EU. Here's Boris (10:30 to 16:30), 3 months before the referendum, not denying his previous support for Single Market membership and repeatedly avoiding the straight question about whether we'll leave it:

In my previous post, I accepted that Labour and anti-semitism was a valid issue to raise and that much of the blame for it remaining an issue was down to Corbyn doing a dreadful job at addressing it. But let's not be disingenuous: the reason why certain media outlets - and certain posters - keep returning to the issue and seeking out previous questionable comments by Corbyn isn't that they have a lifelong passionate commitment to anti-racism. It is partisan politics, an opportunity to use the issue to damage the politicians they oppose. Over the past few months, you have made dozens, if not hundreds of posts about Corbyn/Labour and antisemitism. How many posts did you make about antisemitism before it arose as an issue for Labour? Or did Corbyn invent antisemitism - or become the only person to revive it since Hitler? If you had non-partisan, non-propagandist motives for your avalanche of posts, you would surely also have made countless dozens of posts about Tory Islamophobia? Here's the former Chair of the Tory party accusing it of Islamophobia: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44311092 Here's a Tory MP hosting a meeting by a Hindu Extremist who hangs out with Tommy Robinson and allegedly expresses all sorts of vile anti-Muslim views: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/anti-islam-tapan-ghosh-bob-blackman-rohingya-muslims-a8020656.html Haven't heard quite so much about that in the media or from you, have we? I understand that we all have our views and want to make partisan points - and sometimes you make very good posts advocating your views, whether I agree with them or not. But it becomes annoying propaganda if you constantly spew out posts on a single issue to attack opponents. You and other right-wing posters have criticised other posters for spewing out a stream of partisan anti-Tory or pro-Corbyn posts, with some justification. It hadn't occurred to me that you might be a professional and not an amateur propagandist, though.... If so, which right-wing group pays you? Surely their cash would be better spent on getting you to design memes for mass social media like Facebook, as Britain First and the Corbynistas have done? Not much impact in spewing propaganda into the politics thread of a football forum...

In an astonishing coincidence, it is also RIP to: - The woman who invented a spicy new dish: Carrie Deggs - The woman who used eggs in a lighter dish: Sue Flay - The woman who highlighted relevant health issues: Sal Monella-Neggs

Because there's an issue with some on the Left seeing the world in black and white - Palestine good oppressed victims; Israel bad oppressors - and a minority drifting from that into anti-semitism. Then those on the Right have sought to use the issue to their political advantage, and Labour under Corbyn did a dreadful job at addressing the issue, playing into their hands. Those on the Left will hope that the problem is finally being sorted, and that we can concentrate on critical issues like Brexit, the economy, public services/investment. Those on the Right will be digging around trying to find other examples of Corbyn or his allies making dubious comments so that they can fill the media with stories about Labour anti-semitism - and amateur right-wing propagandists like you will fill social media with posts about anti-semitism, in a way that I don't remember you doing before it became a stick that could be used to beat the Left. I didn't think Corbyn did badly in his Marr interview, despite some tough questioning. As (generally) a Labour supporter, I'm always a bit nervous that he's going to say something stupid or come across really badly.....which is not a good sign. But he was alright today, I thought. The really big issue now is what happens at Labour conference re. Labour policy on a second Brexit referendum. Corbyn and others seem quite clear that if the conference votes for a second referendum, the leadership will adopt that policy - and it sounds as if Labour pro-referendum people are there in force, though they might be stitched up during the compositing of the final motion. If Labour does become a pro-referendum party, that will be a big shift in UK Brexit politics - and potentially national politics. I think the current flexible policy has served the party well and that Labour would be better advised to leave the referendum issue open until May's EU negotiations end in Oct/Nov. Then, if there's no deal or May returns with an unpopular deal, they'll have a strong argument for a shift in policy. They could probably get away with shifting policy immediately, but it might look like premature opportunism and might alienate some Brexit supporters who might support a referendum IF there's no deal or May is perceived to have done a bad deal.

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