inckley fox

You're both right, really. Our managerial appointments have been symptomatic of the problems at the club, and as such they've reflected the poor decision-making at all levels. When you work for any sort of organisation which is in trouble, one of the first things you tend to notice is that you have a lot of the wrong people in the wrong jobs. Their mandate, their remit, isn't what it should be from the off, and even if it were, they're not the right people to pull it off under the circumstances. Even with Maresca, a good manager who did what he was brought in to do, there was no viable long-term plan in the way there had been in 2014. It'd be wrong for us to give KP a pass on that one on the grounds that he's competent, and now a very high profile manager. In contrast, the rest - Smith, Cooper, Ruud, Marti and Rowett - were, of course, quite straightforwardly poor appointments. And yet, as regards managers' success elsewhere, every single one of them had enjoyed some degree of relative success before they came to us. They'd all done well at times in their careers, even Ruud and Marti, so when you get to the stage where 5, 6 or 7 managers - with differing styles and backgrounds - all fail at a club which has other obvious problems going on, it's a bit of a stretch to say we simply need to get better at appointing our bosses. All that said, the board have made their choice once more, and even if it seems predictably clear to us that it'll end up the same way as all the others, it's still very early in the season. There were clear improvements today, and we may well be in a situation a week from now when the more 'kneejerk' fans are crowing about how wrong we were to ever doubt Martin. That, of course, would be every bit as daft as writing them off now. Even promotion may, as in 2024, prove another false dawn under these owners. The best approach, perhaps, is not to get too excited one way or the other over who our manager is while KP are in charge. Even though, chances are, they're not very good.

There are some incredible songs in there. One of Dylan's masterpieces, and three covers of his songs. 'See My Friends' by The Kinks is immense. 'We Gotta Get Outta This Place' by The Animals. 'Universal Soldier'. Scott Walker's 'Make It Easy on Yourself'. And that's before we get to The Beatles. I'll skip Jonathan King, but other than that it's pretty impressive. Edit: and I forgot 'Satisfaction'!

I don't like Faes as a player, never have. Some of that may be down to my personal prejudices on what a CB should do, but I consider his character and player profile totally wrong for what we've needed in his time here, want him gone, and am mortified by the idea that I'll ever have to endure him again. Still, I don't hate him. Apparently he's a nice chap, and there's probably a club out there (though far fewer, and at a way lower level than, say, hfaes would wish to believe) where he'd do a job. Mr Wise, on the other hand, was (in terms of wages at least) an expensive signing who was awful on the pitch, immediately caused problems off it, seriously injured one of his team-mates in an alleged breach of discipline, then sued the club and tried to put it out of business. That takes some beating, in terms of both pure malice and how rubbish a signing he was.

Is that what we're supposed to have asked for? Might be why it's gone quiet!

It could be that we have a load of chancers expressing interest, and - expecting there's no substance to any of their offers - the club wishes to see whether they're all talk or not. Nobody wants to waste months going back and forth with lost causes. It doesn't necessarily mean any of those being set a deadline will, or can, come up with the goods.

We can't kid ourselves that their line-up represented PL opposition, and their application was pedestrian at best. I saw the game, and regardless of stats (does anyone seriously flash xG around as a reliable marker any more?) Ipswich looked like the more likely team to score for me. Yes, there are positives as regards to maintaining possession, but if you want to see proof that we have a cutting edge, then there was very little. Of course, time will tell. I've been as keen as you to emphasise that Martin needs patience, but I didn't see much to further his cause - as regards being an effective unit either defensively (understanding, given the line-up) or offensively, in this game.

We didn't look like scoring very often though, did we? And they did, despite looking like they resented having had to turn up.

Well, you're right to point that out.

God no, I never would.

Oh no, I'm directing nothing whatsoever at FoyleFox! I don't remember being remotely upset by anything he or she wrote and totally understand the feelings of shock or dismay. But there has also been a lot of anger on here, often from excellent and balanced posters, and to be honest I think the root cause of brutal moral crusades - the sort that certain politicians and social media movers thrive on - is a lack of sympathy. Perhaps there is a matriarchal crime baroness behind all of this, but that wouldn't preclude feeling a degree of sympathy or sadness for some, maybe all, of the people involved.

You can still have sympathy for people mourning lost ones in spite of the imperfections of their children, or their imperfections as parents. How many parents of kids who were lost due to misfortune or the malice of others are held up as heroes, only for someone to point out that they were down the pub when whatever happened happened, or hadn't been especially attentive parents? You still wouldn't wish that on them, nor assume that they were negligent. I've known enough despairing parents who've tried their hardest, but to no avail, for me to pause before saying 'let them rot in hell'. As others have pointed out, the young child of one of these criminals bears no blame for the choices its father made. It won't need to grow up surrounded by such vitriol for the parent they lost. You can also have sympathy for those who lost their lives, and probably deserved little else for their actions. We've all made serious mistakes when we were younger, some of which endangered others, and we've all known people involved in criminality who learnt from their errors and went on to be better people. In fact, many of the cultural luminaries who shaped our world have major black marks against their names from their younger years. You've got to have some hope, and it's this instinct which drives many police officers, teachers, social workers, prison staff, counsellors to be the best in their professions. That, to a degree, is why the loss of those two public servants is so terrible. Maybe all of this optimism is a bit of a stretch with some of these characters, but I don't know anywhere near enough about them to be entirely cold about their deaths, nor to be sure that they're of no loss to the world whatsoever. At first glance, I get where you're all coming from. But it's not a world of black-and-white truths, and those who'd have you believe that it is, and to employ your rage against the 'bad guys', are also the people doing the most damage in the world today. Ironically, social media may have played a massive role in this tragedy, but it may also be behind much of the rabid fury in the response to it. I'd honestly urge people to resist it. I doubt very much that those five young people - for the most part - are the sorts of people who'd have been similarly charitable in their views of others. But I don't know their full stories, so I think it'd be more constructive - rather than saying good riddance, raging at their vigils, smearing crap on their tombstones or turning these fools into antichrists for five minutes then forgetting about it when the next big news item steals our lust for vengeance - to respond productively. To understand that there is a huge problem in how we raise our children, as parents and educators, in the world of social media, and to be bolder, less worried about the billionaires and politicians we offend, in facing up to this.

It is a myth, and possibly even more so than you indicate. The Foxestalk History section listed the average age of that line-up as 27.04 (factoring in birthdates etc.). Even accounting for McCarthy skewing the average, it is by no stretch a young side. Tellingly, as so many have pointed out, the younger players have so far been the better performers. Our recruitment in the 23+ bracket has, with one or two exceptions (like Castagne and Hermansen, who were 23-24 years old), been very poor since 2019. So the continuation of the Rodgers era 'oven-ready' transfer policy, while loaning out various youngsters, may well turn out to be questionable.

He improved MK Dons (they were in the relegation zone when he took over and finished just outside, then were mid-table the next season) but not so much Swansea, who'd been in the play-offs for two seasons before he turned up, when they dropped to lower mid-table. They did a bit better in his second season and I think he had to work on a very limited budget, but it wasn't especially impressive. At Southampton, of course he deserves plenty of credit for his promotion, but it comes with serious caveats. Firstly, that they were among the favourites and anything less than promotion would have been considered a failure. Maybe not to the same degree as Maresca with us, but a failure nonetheless. Second, he only just scraped it. And third, they were heading for one of the worst ever top flight relegations when he left. His ppg had them on track to match Derby's record and I'm pretty sure his record is the third worst of any EPL manager who had more than ten games in charge. It's hard to say that he left that team in a better place than he found it (which is something I think you could argue about him in three of his four managerial roles). I'm not sure you can excuse the Rangers debacle on the grounds that everyone else struggled there. Beale, Clement and Rohl all had plenty of issues, but equally all of them did way better than Martin, and McInnes has only had four matches to date. Is he a good coach, as you put it? Occasionally, in the right circumstances, is probably about fair. I agree that we have to give him a fair crack of the whip, but equally it's important to remember that there was a good reason why people were so sceptical in the first place. It wasn't just a load of ill-considered gripes about 'all this tippy-tappy b******s'.

Enzo didn't always make the right call. We built our side around Faes and Vestergard under him and that was always going to be a problem upon promotion. We'd either have had to rip the backbone out of the side, or put up the whole season long with the worst CB pairing in the PL. Playing a slightly less possession-based game and building the side around Souttar probably wouldn't have been so effective in the FLC but might have required less of a transition when we went up. Even, by the way, if we'd decided that Souttar wasn't good enough when we got there. At least the style of play would have been more suited to a side which needs to learn to play without possession. But Enzo's reign was never about the long-term future of the club, it was always a short-term patch-up which served to further his own career. They say that when you judge how successful a manager has been, in addition to assessing their achievements, look at the three years before and the three years after. Is the latter any better than the former? When it comes to Enzo - without wishing to lay the blame primarily at his door - it's not easy to be kind to him on that score. Souttar made a real name for himself in the second tier before he joined us, and when he was back in the side at the end of last season people thought he was a class above. While I don't think he's a particularly great player, and definitely not suited to Martin's tactics, I'm still inclined to think that some of his problems today were down to him not being very interested in being here (I'm not arguing that he wasn't crap!). As regards building for the future THIS year, though, I have to say that - in spite of the inclusion of Braybrooke, Alves, Joseph - that was not a young side out there today. I expected an average age of 24-26 throughout this season, but today's team must have been around 28 as an average. So long-term thinking, for better or for worse, is clearly still not a priority. Maybe we've not learnt a thing, or maybe the current regime - and the people they've brought in as staff and players - has zero interest in the long term. Again.

Yeah, that's the point, to a degree.

I agree with that entirely. I think it's alright to say it was crap and a bit worrying though. A lot of people who had formed an opinion of Martin based on years of seeing how his sides get along were suddenly 'converted' by a few decent pre-season results - which I thought was a bit fickle, and I said at the time that one solitary league game tells you a lot more than all the friendlies combined. I also made the point that to judge a manager on one, two or even five, six games is hasty in the extreme. So long as we understand that all forms of fickleness, positive and negative, are unhelpful (because those who whip their cocks out after a few pre-season games are very, very prone to leaping to other silly conclusions) then I'm with you. I expect things to get much better than that, so won't get too excited either way for a good while yet. And, of course, one win, and suddenly we'll be a shoo in for the title again according to some.

Did you think it was decent then?

I said that about Kristiansen.

Well, no, not if you're talking about people who slated Cooper for not giving him a chance! But I thought he showed a bit of promise here and there.

Well, that's kind of my point, isn't it?! That works both ways.

I'll get behind him, and we shouldn't get carried away with either the good things from today's game or the bad, but I have been baffled by some of the 'Martin converts' on here lately. While there's every chance that he'll achieve his objectives this season, I've seen nothing to change my opinion about him as a long-term project-builder for the club. I don't yet see the thing that has inspired this renewed belief.

Not arguing with you at all, to be honest. Looked uncomfortable on the ball and made a couple of potentially very serious mistakes. Perhaps slightly less terrifying when the ball goes anywhere near him than Okoli, and more dominant aerially at times, but I wasn't impressed with either CB.

I must admit, I thought he was a bit shit too.

I'm as relieved as anyone not to have been bored to death by performances, and no he's not been as smug yet as we know he can be. I'm also pleased to see the youngsters doing well. However I think he has little choice but to give them game time in preseason. I also think the team spirit you mention has been absent in a number of senior pros. We know many of them still want out and that's been reflected visibly in some of their displays. Not that that's unexpected, or the manager's fault, of course. I also believe that if, in the event, we play anything remotely reminiscent of the sort of football for which Martin is inflexibly renowned, that a very young team is going to find it tough in such a physical league. Above all, I think it's very unwise to jump the gun based on preseason results. You could argue that - while Cooper was always the wrong appointment, more miss-than-hit with his transfer dealings and achieved misleadingly positive early results - the poor pre-season did more than it should have to make fans restless. I don't think that sense of negativity helped, and I'm not sure it would help to read too much into pre-season the other way round either. Even if we take Cooper as a lousy example, then we also had many eyebrow-raising preseasons under O'Neill and Pearson. 2015 was quite unconvincing at times. And we had wonderful preseasons under Taylor in 2001, Sven in 2011 and even Cifuentes last year. Everyone was in love with him, his style, how he came across after that Fiorentina game. Preseason results and even, to a good degree, performances are very poor indicators, as a rule, of what's to come. I wouldn't judge a manager on just three or four competitive games in charge, but one solitary league fixture probably tells you more about how well the manager is doing than the sum total of the preseason games. I'll give Martin a fair chance. Yes, I'll criticise him all I like on here or in the pub, but I haven't harangued a manager in almost two decades at a game. That said, I don't see that anything has happened since his arrival which is truly substantive enough to ignite belief in him. These owners don't have a great track record when it comes to appointments and Martin, put simply, doesn't have a great track record at all. As things stand, these two facts are still the biggest clues we've got as to future outcomes. There's also a danger that, if we get even slightly carried away with these vaguely-encouraging but largely meaningless early glimpses, then the disappointment if these flimsy good vibes crash into reality will be all the more stark. Whether I wanted him or not, he might need some patience against the backdrop of our current predicament, and I suspect he'll get less of that if people get too excited over what they've seen so far. HMS Piss-the-League all over again. I'd just urge everyone to be realistic about where we are, what he can conceivably achieve, what he's capable of achieving, and to learn from the harsh lessons of the past. And then, you never know, we might wind up being pleasantly surprised. But if we are, that should be based on real results rather than glorified training sessions.

They were being very honest, maybe exaggerating a little, I don't know. But I think a lot of people are going to, and should, take more convincing that we're back on track. While I certainly do still care about the club (as I'm sure the poster does too) it'd be fickle if I was convinced by a few decent pre-season outings ahead of a League 1 season. I certainly wouldn't tell anyone who was still thoroughly pissed off with the club that they're a tosspot. If we do well, then this season is going to be a fine balance between letting the club know that they're not off the hook and being good fans who get wholly behind a promotion push. If we succumb entirely to the positive vibes then I suspect we'll let ourselves in for a lot of longer-term agony.