st albans fox

Hamas is not in control of the West Bank - that’s the PLA. Hamas threw the PLA out of Gaza once they had been elected and taken root. Granted that elections in Gaza are no longer free and fair in any sense whatsoever but in 2005, the decision of the people of Gaza to deliver Hamas victory should be seen as one of the most awful illustrations of the democratic system ever. Was there anything comparable in the period between the National socialists in Germany and that 2005 election ?

I was using it as an illustration of needing a viable post war plan. There are some loose similarities - not sure the comparable size of the two are that relevant.

As has been said multiple times over the past couple of days, this is soon going to get dreadful (beyond what we’ve seen) and I dread to think of the number of civilian casualties in Gaza. Israel will struggle to cope with the number of military deaths - they are effectively sending their soldiers into a death trap. their call is based on the fact that with Hamas in control of Gaza, there will simply be repeating cycles of violence against Israel. they have called time on it. does anyone have an alternative to forcibly removing the armed fighters and terrorists? unless there is a real plan to make proper peace with the Palestinians afterwards then surely it’s a terrible waste of lives on both sides. NATO went into Afghanistan to remove Al quaeda and were pretty much successful but two decades on we still have the taliban in control and derivatives of Al Qaeda still operating. Without any solution to the basic problem we will return to the same position. there will be no peace plan with netenyahu’s govt. there needs to be another GE and we need to hope that a more moderate coalition is the consequence. Settlers were removed from Gaza in 2005 and that can happen in areas of the West Bank - there is precedent. the events of the past few days may encourage Israelis to realise that compromise in this area is essential to drive a settlement.

Sorry mate but you specifically wrote it on Sunday. I’ve copied it below for you and anyone else to read again. You equated the morals of the IDF and Hamas. Quite frankly, I wonder what your motivations are because you continually try to give a vibe of an even handed unbiased approach but I’m not convinced ill read your repsonse in the morning - I don’t want to read it tonight as it will aggravate me and I won’t sleep Mickyblueeyes Member 6,252 Location: Leicester Posted Sunday at 19:42 There’s enough out there to suggest otherwise. I’m sorry but to pretend that the IDF have any sort of morals which differ significantly from Hamas because they happen to wear a uniform is ridiculous. The Human Rights Watch called them out as child killers just a few months ago. This conflict is ****ed up. The combatants on both sides lost their moral high ground years ago. It’s the every day people who suffer but the brutality of the combatants will leave water in the eyes. I remind you, Hamas went to war with the PLO not that long ago. There is going to be carnage and a quick search on Twitter on the atrocities already committed by both is frightening.

Over the weekend I made a point about my unease with equivalency between Hamas fighters and the IDF. I was told that this was my problem. I think we should all be able to see now that there is no equivalence and anyone maintaining that there is should have a good long look at themselves

Syria wouldn’t be doing anything without Moscow’s approval Saudi will not want to take a stance beyond what they’ve already said. They don’t want to completely destroy any possibility of normalising relations with Israel until they have no choice. Egypt, as Turkey have a problem with their Muslim populations - as Gaza is pummelled and more civilians die, there will be popular demand for an anti Israel response egypt is no fan of Hamas whatsoever and they would rather Gaza wasn’t there at all on the edge of their territory. Egypt will not want to become involved militarily. biden made a strong point earlier to countries and groups in the region not to get involved. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the US take limited military action against Syria or hezbollah if they over step too much as a warning.

That’s another 18 months for Petty

Struggling to read the room wasn’t he yeah but no but ….. he just has a way about him which is so unlikeable

It’s grim This is a part of the world where kids over the age of twelve will sometimes carry weapons. Those over sixteen will sometimes be fighters prepared to kill. our definition of children being anyone under the age of 18 is stretched in other cultures and regions. the reference to murdered children this afternoon is in relation to a specific event and relates to small children and babies (and the possible method of their murder). I shouldn’t make a distinction but I do. There are young kids and perhaps babies being killed in Gaza this evening as a consequence of missile strikes - that’s a more relevant conversation imo.

Just a short question - why should Israel be expected to treat the Palestinians of Gaza better than the hamas govt that is responsible for governing that enclave? sadly the last few days is clear evidence as to why Israel controls everything that enters Gaza - all these rockets and arms got in even with these restrictions. Imagine having an airport and port in Gaza - they would wipe Israel off the map within months. I assume you are asking about what has occurred in the West Bank - it’s not defendable. Taking land for settlements is not something that anyone outside of the right wing Israeli govt approves of. It just highlights how big an opportunity was missed by both sides twenty years ago when a viable two state solution was on the table. we can hope that the fall out from this will see netenyahu and his rw cronies kicked out and real progress towards a peaceful settlement achieved.

There’s nothing wrong with a Palestinian flag - it was a bit odd to fly it that day considering none of those boys are Palestinian !

The kibbutz massacre is being quoted by Reuters and has appeared on the bbc live feed - just sickening. The comparison made with ISIS seems to be fair (although I’m not sure even they were guiltily of be heading babies and young children)

I’ve been out all day so just catching up on news from Israel and Gaza I’ve seen reports from reputable news broadcasters that in one kibbutz 40 young children and babies were slaughtered - some beheaded. I prey this is not true - I mean what kind of person could do something like that ?

Whatever Israel do now is wrong Retaliation leads to civilian Palestinian deaths in Gaza cutting off supplies will lead to terrible hardships and ultimately civilian deaths in gaza Doing nothing risks encouraging hezbollah to open up another front in the north. when was the last time 1000 civilians (as a proportion of 7m pop) were murdered in cold blood in one day by terrorists without a response ?? As commented above - hamas knew what would happen and care not a jot about their civilian population.

Apparently around 1500 Hamas terrorists have been killed in Israel and around the border area. That’s just astonishing. What an enormous failure of the basic role of govt which is to protect its people.

Not right re numbers https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/ No. of Jews per 1,000 in the population of Europe: 1.58. (Around. 1.4m) Globally there are approx 16m Jews. (38% of those in the USA and 45% in Israel). over time, it seems likely that the Jewish population outside of Israel and n America will become almost insignificant. However, climate change will no doubt force some relocation of population away from the eastern med unless we solve the energy crisis with commercially achievable fusion.

I think this may be reasonably unbiased and factual https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Resurgence-of-Palestinian-identity

If it’s true Sunil the first casualty of war etc etc ………… If it has happened then you’d hope that those responsible would be brought to justice. But I doubt that will happen given that the boy has clearly been taken from the scene to be treated and those who did it won’t come forward. Wouldn’t expect that we’ll ever find out the truth on this.

The USA stands steadfast behind Israel - that won’t change. and we all know that Iran is behind Hamas military wing - just as it is hezbollah.

No idea if it’s real - I guess we’ll find out eventually. much of what is on social media needs to be treated with caution - media like bbc verify one of the best places to get information

not sure that counts as supporting the Hamas attacks - it’s an opinion that is widely felt. But there should be condemnation of the attacks at the same time.

Hardly a plot twist it will be higher than that the U.K. will also lose more than that Thailand has already lost a dozen citizens murdered with a further 11 abducted these international hostages complicate any land invasion by Israel and negs behind the scenes continue, brokered by Qatar I wonder if we’ll see Israel restore water and electricity in return for the release of some hostages. Israel will argue that supplying power to Gaza enables Hamas fighters to make and launch rockets against them. It’s a tough argument.

Can there actually be pro Hamas Labour mp’s ? It’s a prescribed organisation. not condoning acts of terror isn’t condemning them

His fanbase is not enough to be elected - I presume that his coalition will attempt to hang on because many of the small parties involved have no chance of being in office if this current govt falls apart. But I expect something will give and another GE won’t be far away - I think there have been three in the past three years! A raft of middle ground voters gave their support to likud because they believed netenyahu was the man to protect them and the country from harm. That has disintegrated and no matter what happens now to Hamas, those 700+ people are not coming back. I expect the majority of families in Israel are touched personally by this horror - that’s why I can’t see him managing to hang on.

his whole shtick was basically that he would protect israeli civilians and keep the country secure. he was too busy concentrating military assets in the west bank to protect settlers (which keeps his govt in place via coalition with 'extremist parties') which meant the gaza border wasnt protected as it should be. as referenced above, this loss of life in one day is horrific. it wont be as quick as some would like to see but he is finished beyond the period he can stick it out for post the current war.