Nods

Yeah, totally. It's just fast play. It isn't the the counter attacking football that our fans have craved since 15/16. It's not the style being called for in here. I just don't think fans that are bored our play have a nuanced enough view of the issue. We can't just click our fingers and start counter attacking again. Nor is counter attack the answer or what some of the most successful teams at the moment are doing. Our players are slow and cumbersome, and so, therefore, is our play. It's not a stylistic choice, it's a symptom of our recruitment. I'm sure Marti would his team to play like Palace. Issue is he's got Luke Thomas, Vestergaard, Ayew etc etc. to implement it. Always going to look slow, isn't it?

Your argument here is essentially the inverse of what I've been trying to say. Too many styles are being blanket named possession when they're just football. Man City and Chelsea might be the slower end of that spectrum, but to say that it's all boring is flawed and generalist. Problem is, we can't really play more direct because teams aren't going to attack us in numbers, we'd be silly to invite pressure on our weak defence, and we don't have the strikers to punish teams on the counter.

Right, so you want quicker football. As I've said already, what you don't like is slow football. Not 'possession football'. If our full backs could pass (rather than having to turn to find the easiest pass), and if we had even one centre forward capable of running off the ball, maybe you'd have your wish. We have a playing staff problem. We'll be boring to watch under any manager until that changes.

Palace weren't direct though. They played fantastic football and won the game by being the better, more cohesive attacking outfit. Their passing and moving was electric. Did you watch the game, or are you just assuming that because it was a non big 6 team beating a big side, it had to have been done so deploying tactics you favour? Only 58 of their 396 passes were classed as long. And only 116 of their 396 passes were in the final third. Sounds pretty 'possession based' to me.

So what are you suggesting? Don't attack? What if the team we're playing also doesn't want to attack? Or rarely. The way you're describing it, you'd have two teams each camped on the edge of their own box, hoofing it from one end of the pitch to the other, each waiting for the opposition to attack so they can counter 'Possession football' is a necessity for matches to take their natural course. One team has to take the initiative. Counter attacking football requires you first to be an underdog. Which we aren't at the moment. I've already said that we'd be wise to be less expansive as/when/if we get back in to the Premier League. But only because our circumstances would dictate that.

How have you worked that one out? It doesn't matter how the opposition plays if you want to play a low block. Literally all you have to do is sit deep. Doesn't matter if the opposition is fast, slow, short or direct. All it requires you to do is basically stay deep. I.e. stand still. You don't need your opposition to do anything in order to be able to do that.

No team sets out with the primary objective of maximising possession. Not really. Fans have convinced themselves to the point of considering it fact that certain managers get a bonk on if they manage 80%. That's not the case, except for, maybe, the extreme case of Russell Martin. What you're bored of, and what you're calling 'possession football' is just slow football. Slow football happens when you have poor players, unmotivated players and players that lack confidence. I'm not even convinced we are particularly obsessed with possession this season. We've attempted 271 take ons, with the average being 168 and the next nearest to us attempting 218. We are taking risks, not just recycling play. On the other side of the coin, you can have a very good team of players, but if the opposition sits very deep, guess what? That'll slow the game down, too. You can't counter attack a team that sits on the edge of their own box all game. Arsenal wrongly get called a boring possession-obsessed team. They are just better than everyone else at the moment, so everyone sits deep against them which results in an often dull watch where they're concerned. The stats literally demonstrate this. Really there are two main 'types' of football. One that relies on winning the ball back (high press or low block), or taking the initiative and taking the game to the opposition. Both strategies can be executed well or poorly, but the entertainment you're craving isn't aligned to either. In fact we'd be even more boring to watch if this squad of players tried to rely on winning the ball high, or waiting until we can counter. We don't have the players to do it, so you'd just be watching us amble around the pitch aimlessly. We might score some counter attacking goals, but with this defence, are you really trusting them with all the pressure we'd be inviting? Who's going to press from the front? In terms of Leicester City, it's all a bit moot. We don't recruit players that are good enough to zip it about quickly and accurately enough for it to be effective. But then we also don't recruit players capable of deploying a high press. And a low block would be silly as it would invite unnecessary pressure in a league in which we have superior players. It would be an unnecessary trade off. Let's just worry about getting recruitment right before going off on a pointless tangent about 'possession football.' Nothing works without getting recruitment right, and any brand of football is likely to be hard on the eyes until we do. If we do get back into the Premier League, it's a different conversation. It's less about what's entertaining and more about what is likely to be most effective. And given that we'd be going into that league as one of the weakest sides, we'd be wise to recruit players based on the idea of being strong in a low block, fast on the counter, and with players able to press high and nick chances. We should be more flexible and our recruitment should be much more closely aligned to an agreed strategy based on which league we find ourselves in. I agree that flexibility should come with a view that we're able to move away from our current blueprint. But not because anything other than counter attacking football is inherently boring.

Possession football isn't the enemy. Poor football is. We're crap and currently play possession football, so people are wrongly identifying the root cause here as our style of play, when in fact our biggest issue is that we have a lot of poor footballers on the books. We could also be crap while lumping it forward, and people would be calling for our dinosaur brand of football to be modernised. Do I think we could play quicker? Absolutely. But that's a mental/attitude challenge more than it is a stylistic one. There's nothing wrong with possession-based football if it's done with purpose and skill. There's also nothing wrong with direct football if it's done with good delivery, physicality and intensity. We don't have the required players to be direct either. The issue is the players, and the framework at the top of the club that led to having such an overpaid, under-qualified and unmotivated bunch of tossers to choose from. I agree that our slow football is boring. But that doesn't mean that all possession based styles are without their merit. And as others have already said, it can be incredibly pleasing on the eye when deployed properly. It's beyond simplification to blame possession for poor football and our issues.

It's possible, but I don't think so. We've been pretty crap so far and yet we've only lost to in form teams away from home. And in each of those games we could easily have taken points. Hopefully Marti sees sense by dropping Thomas, and continuing to drop Faes. While we still won't score many, those changes should see us nick enough 1-0 wins.

Absolutely. And it's an important distinction to make that this thinking doesn't mean we automatically expect this squad to dominate the Championship. Even though there is an expectation we should have enough quality to at least be in the mix for promotion. The main point is that our downfall is unforgivable. As fans, our efforts to support the current squad are likely to be futile. But we absolutely should be angry and should be so much louder in voicing that anger. Clapping along is complicit behavior.

Only really worth doing if it's supported by consistent protest and noise. As an isolated event once or twice a season it's pretty ineffective and only serves to add a few column inches. In isolation it looks like a minority. Consistently executed with organised and vocal protest and I can imagine momentum gathering. On its own it feels a bit pointless tbh. Project reset, in my opinion, was a direction that had legs. Shame that went quiet. A plane promoting something along those lines might be worthwhile if it was to be the catalyst for further organised protest and momentum. Especially if we're going for Top, which I'm not against. It can't just be a one off plane. He has to see his name constantly if it's going to twig that we're against him as a fan group. And, to be honest, therein lies the problem. I'm not convinced enough fans want him gone for this to ever work. We're so passive.

Couldn't disagree more. With an organised leadership and a squad that tries? Absolutely. Our team in 14/15 needed and deserved support, and I agree, it can make the difference. This lot? They're not arsed. Nothing will change that. They don't deserve support anyway, and clapping along like good little supporters prolongs the agony. We shouldn't be supporting more, we should be angrier. We should be driving change through anger and protest. Imagine Everton fans if this was them. Or Newcastle. Would they be cheerleading? Would they fvck, and rightly so. They should be all the evidence you need that an angry fan base can drive change. But yeah, clap a bit more and Soumare might start to bust a lung every game. Yeah, right.

Doesn't help. All the more reason to get more bodies up the pitch in support, though. We'd be sacrificing the defensive services of Luke Thomas to enable it, but I think that's a risk I'm happy for us to take.

Do agree with the sentiment of this, though. It feels like a lot of fans are only now cottoning on to the damage that has been done. Those watching closely saw the makings of today's reality years ago. Even so, play 3 at the back please, Marti!!

Just don't understand how he can implement 3 at the back to chase games, see how much better we look in that shape, and not adopt it as our starting formation. Don't really have a viable defensive midfielder? Great, more solidity in the middle with 3 centre halves. One of our centre halves makes one of their inevitable errors? Great, you've more cover in the middle. Struggling to create? Great, we'd have an extra man in midfield to create space by default. Full backs your worst players? Great, you can drop them. Can't be any worse, and we've seen evidence that it does work. Genuinely what is the point in Thomas and Choudhury? They're a waste of a starting spot. Even Pereira isn't what he was defensively. Use him as an 8, where he was so effective the last time we were in this league.

Just miss having a club that I can get behind. It's almost at the point that I dislike so much about what we have become that there is comfort in seeing us get exactly what we deserve. Top and Rudkin deserve this. Would I prefer us to stagger on, or see us self destruct in front of their eyes, on their watch? The latter offers a higher probability of change.

Built like a child and plays like one.

Nothing drains your confidence quite like being shit

Choudhury not far behind either. Been saying for a while now, we need to just sack off using full backs. Use Pereira as a midfielder.

And this is why we need VAR. Such a shame they've handled its roll out just as badly as they officiate.

I need to see a compilation of his corner kicks this season. For my own sanity. If someone has the spare time and sadistic character to do it, I'd honestly appreciate it. I am fairly certain he's taken at least 20 and pretty much every one has either hit the first man, sailed harmlessly long, or gone out of play. Actually delivering effective corners is a whole different ball game. This guy can't even put it in the mixer. How on earth is he still allowed to persist?

Nearly... Complacent Uppity Narcissistic Toxic Spoiled

Nobody is forcing him to play Faes, Daka, Thomas, Soumare and Ayew. Playing even one of them in any starting line up is questionable. Playing all of them is suicide. Okoli and Nelson are better than Faes. Genuinely anybody is better than Thomas. Play another centre half if you have to. Go 3 at the back. Ramsey and Pereira are both better than Soumaré. Carranza looks like he might be better than Daka. It wouldn't take much. Daka has scored 1 goal in 48 games. Ayew is okay in small quantities but Monga or other youth players will offer more energy from the start of games, which is desperately lacking. I like him, I like his ability to change the shape mid-game. But he will quickly lose me and the majority of fans if he keeps fielding these charlatans. No amount of tactical nous or man management will get results when the footballers chosen to do the job are so below the level. Ultimately player selection is under his remit, and it's infuriating because it's the easiest thing to get right. Not a single fan would have chosen that 11 tonight.

Just don't play the obviously shite players mate. It's that simple. The fans will back you. Faes Thomas Soumaré Daka Ayew All have absolutely no business in a starting 11 at this level. I'd also like to see us start with 3 at the back. Nullifies a clear weakness at full back, gives us more solidity centrally, which we lack, and gives us that extra man when we attack, opening space that we've otherwise struggled to create. The best we've looked all season has been when we've moved to that formation chasing deficits away at Preston and Hull. Start in that shape with that desire and we'll be too much for most sides.

If I see one more corner kick from Jordan Ayew I swear to God I'm going to the next game with a machine gun.