Guest Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Ironic then the the Tories were the only party who didn't include HOL reform in their manifesto in the general election. As you say you voted for that decision, mate Then under the mooseosborne rule the HOL cannot be changed.
Bettsj2 Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 I think we all want some sort of reform and we should, the thing in it's present form is quite ludicrous. It is worth mentioning that the Lords didn't vote for the Lib Dem measure to completely overrule this, they voted for the later two amendments to send it back asking for compensation and concessions, wouldn't rule out Osborne making a token tweek and sending it back again. It's still not right though; I don't know if due to the direction Labour have taken the peers have decided to become the opposition to the government instead but something will have to give if they intend to make a habit of this. What reform would be favourable in your eyes? Its difficult to reform somthing thats been around for so long in a way that pleases everybody. Last night was by far more exciting than the General Election.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 This came up in the discussion with members of the government department at uni yesterday. Quite a strong opinion from most that the HoL were overstepping the mark (this was before the vote so maybe people will have reconsidered especially after the Lib Dem motion not being passed) but then it was quite split with respect to reforming the HoL and what should be done. There was a consensus, which I agree with, that it should be made into a proper revising chamber, filled with experts in their field. One of the professor's (can't remember his name) said it just shows what a mess British politics really, out of date with no proper constitution and then when the conversation moved on to EVEL, regional parliaments, UK break up etc, it kind of reinforced his point. It makes politics a bit more interesting anyway, PMQs will be loaded with Tory MPs digging the HoL
Rincewind Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Cameron did not say that they would reduce tax or child credits. In fact he is on record as saying that they would not on more than one occasion.
Guest Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 This came up in the discussion with members of the government department at uni yesterday. Quite a strong opinion from most that the HoL were overstepping the mark (this was before the vote so maybe people will have reconsidered especially after the Lib Dem motion not being passed) but then it was quite split with respect to reforming the HoL and what should be done. There was a consensus, which I agree with, that it should be made into a proper revising chamber, filled with experts in their field. One of the professor's (can't remember his name) said it just shows what a mess British politics really, out of date with no proper constitution and then when the conversation moved on to EVEL, regional parliaments, UK break up etc, it kind of reinforced his point. It makes politics a bit more interesting anyway, PMQs will be loaded with Tory MPs digging the HoL I guess student bodies have been calling for reform to the HOL for centuries.
MooseBreath Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Ironic then the the Tories were the only party who didn't include HOL reform in their manifesto in the general election. As you say you voted for that decision, mate Before they started meddling in government policies I wouldn't have been too bothered either way, clearly this changes the picture.
MooseBreath Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Cameron did not say that they would reduce tax or child credits. In fact he is on record as saying that they would not on more than one occasion. He is on record saying he wouldn't cut child benefit and they haven't. He isn't on record saying they wouldn't cut tax credits though. And they haven't really cut them anyway, just frozen them at a time when inflation is near zero so it makes no real difference.
Guest Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Before they started meddling in government policies I wouldn't have been too bothered either way, clearly this changes the picture. Yet you are in the minority. The Lords just voiced the opinion of majority of the public - that's pretty democratic.
Buce Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 He is on record saying he wouldn't cut child benefit and they haven't. He isn't on record saying they wouldn't cut tax credits though. And they haven't really cut them anyway, just frozen them at a time when inflation is near zero so it makes no real difference.That is simply not true.Osbourne's intention was to, a) cut the figure at which WTC begins to be withdrawn (from £6,000+ per annum to £3,000+ per annum), and, b) raise the rate at which it is withdrawn, from 41p in the pound to 47p in the pound.
MooseBreath Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Yet you are in the minority. The Lords just voiced the opinion of majority of the public - that's pretty democratic. How did they? There wasn't an official vote that I'm aware of?
MooseBreath Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 That is simply not true. Osbourne's intention was to, a) cut the figure at which WTC begins to be withdrawn (from £6,000+ per annum to £3,000+ per annum), and, b) raise the rate at which it is withdrawn, from 41p in the pound to 47p in the pound. Having never claimed them I don't know the ins and outs but I'm led to believe that he was proposing to change the eligibility criteria but not the pay out. I suppose you could see that as effectively cutting them but in any case Cameron didn't say he wasn't going to make changes to tax credits.
Carl the Llama Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 HOL for once makes itself useful by acting as a buffer against politicians blatantly acting against their pre-election promises to the detriment of people at the bottom of the income ladder and they're the ones being undemocratic? I'm not targeting this at anyone in particular but there are a lot of people right-of centre that need to seriously get a grip, consecutive governments has gone to some people's heads and they no longer feel the Tory's should be held accountable.
Guest MattP Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Get a grip? An unelected house has just done something it hasn't done for over a hundred years, of course the Tories should be held accountable, but that is the job of the opposition not bishops, vicars etc in the HOL. Last night was scandalous on terms of democracy and the Tories now have a total right to do whatever they want with regards to sorting it out. People don't elect majority governments so they can't govern. If the House of Lords really cared about people there are hundreds of things they could stop governments doing but they don't. I knew stuff like this would start to happen as soon as Corbyn was elected and we're rendered with no seriously political opposition in the house of commons.
Buce Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Having never claimed them I don't know the ins and outs . Lame response. You've never played Premiership football but you 'know the ins and outs' sufficiently to make informed comments. And, having admitted that you don't know the details, what gives you the right to claim (erroneously) that they are 'not being cut'?
Carl the Llama Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Get a grip? An unelected house has just done something it hasn't done for over a hundred years, of course the Tories should be held accountable, but that is the job of the opposition not bishops, vicars etc in the HOL. Last night was scandalous on terms of democracy and the Tories now have a total right to do whatever they want with regards to sorting it out. People don't elect majority governments so they can't govern. If the House of Lords really cared about people there are hundreds of things they could stop governments doing but they don't. I knew stuff like this would start to happen as soon as Corbyn was elected and we're rendered with no seriously political opposition in the house of commons. I have to ask: Since doing the right thing by the British public wasn't the intention here, what motivated the HOL to behave in such an arrogant fashion?
Buce Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 If the HoLs can't veto govt legislation, what exactly is its purpose? Genuine question.
MooseBreath Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Lame response. You've never played Premiership football but you 'know the ins and outs' sufficiently to make informed comments. And, having admitted that you don't know the details, what gives you the right to claim (erroneously) that they are 'not being cut'? Because the payouts aren't being cut, they're being frozen. It is just the eligibility criteria that is changing.
The Railway Man Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Let's not pull any punches here, the behaviour of the House of Lords last night was appalling and it goes against everything we should be standing for in Britain, I'm suprised how many people have sought to defend it, because when it happens to them on something they don't like they won't have a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining. It not be the worst thing in the World short term for the people though, if Corbyn ever does someone get to power at least the Lords can make sure non of his wacky policies get through.
Buce Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 Because the payouts aren't being cut, they're being frozen. It is just the eligibility criteria that is changing. You are just repeating yourself. They are being cut, which you would know if you had read 'the ins and outs'.
MooseBreath Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 You are just repeating yourself. They are being cut, which you would know if you had read 'the ins and outs'. I just had a bit of a read and can't see anywhere that says the payouts are being cut, just that the eligibility criteria is being changed.
Bellend Sebastian Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 It's as bad as when these unelected c***wits stick their oar in http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/oct/30/prince-charles-offered-veto-legislation
The Railway Man Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 It was pretty funny how the Guardian were chasing Charles for years over his "politics" and then when they finally came across a load of the evidence it was virtually pointless as he was somehow even more left wing than them lot.
Bellend Sebastian Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 It was pretty funny how the Guardian were chasing Charles for years over his "politics" and then when they finally came across a load of the evidence it was virtually pointless as he was somehow even more left wing than them lot. Unelected lefties presiding over political decision making? Full communism achieved, comrade, and in a most unexpected way
Guest MattP Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 I had a read of those Charles letters, he made the class war party look centre right, always suspected him of it.
Rincewind Posted 27 October 2015 Posted 27 October 2015 He is on record saying he wouldn't cut child benefit and they haven't. He isn't on record saying they wouldn't cut tax credits though. And they haven't really cut them anyway, just frozen them at a time when inflation is near zero so it makes no real difference. https://www.facebook.com/330250343871/videos/10153710887158872/ The qualifying level is being reduced so in effect those that qualified before will be having the amount reduced. http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/exclusive-67pc-of-working-tax-credit-recipients-will-be-made-worse-off-by-osbornes-reforms/ Some workers will be able to keep just 7p in every extra £1 that they earn. So the new system will put them on an effective tax rate of 93 per cent. Increasing the minimum wage to £9 an hour and raising the tax allowance will only offset the tax credit reduction for one in three claimants. So most of these workers will be worse off in 2020 than they are today. Families who respond to the cuts by trying to earn more will be worst-hit by the current reforms: precisely the opposite of Osborne’s intention Owner-occupiers, another group that the Conservatives have sought to encourage, will be amongst the hardest hit when the reforms come in April. http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/exclusive-67pc-of-working-tax-credit-recipients-will-be-made-worse-off-by-osbornes-reforms/
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