you know something is wrong with the sport you love, when....

[Lillehamring]

within 12 months of the italian league being disgraced and found guilty of match fixing (again) - they can go on to win the world cup and the champions league - crime, it seems, does pay.

not saying that was the case tonight, but how can italian teams seriously still be allowed to compete at this level!

[The Reverend]

Yeah i agree. It isnt right.

It may seem like sour grapes, but thats irrelevant. The fact is Milan were caught match-fixing and they certainly should not have been allowed to play in European competition.

[Maybes]

Yeah i agree. It isnt right.

It may seem like sour grapes, but thats irrelevant. The fact is Milan were caught match-fixing and they certainly should not have been allowed to play in European competition.

Seconded. Italian football is a farce. I think they paid the ref tonight aswell

[The Reverend]

Seconded. Italian football is a farce. I think they paid the ref tonight aswell

Dont even go there

But his performance tonight, fookin hell, it wuldnt surprise me at all

[Floating Fox]

I thought the ref had a decent game.

[lookwhaticando]

After appeal:

AC Milan stay in Serie A, with their penalty cut from 15 points to eight.

Milan may also be allowed to play in the Champions League qualifying rounds this season - having originally been barred from Europe.

Eight point deduction for being found guilty of corruption. And still allowed to play in Europe.

The words "Italian football" can be found in the dictionary under the heading "corruption".

Eight points in Serie A for downright corruption... 10 point deduction in the Football League for financial distress. Somewhere along the line, there's been total disconnect as far as a correlation between crime and associated punishment goes.

I wonder why UEFA didn't take action when they discovered that corruption was rife in Italy's top division?

[Ultra]

There was a loophole in UEFA rules.

Basically once Milan had been entered (after an appeal) in the Champions League by the Italian FA,there was nothing that UEFA could do about it.

UEFA have now tightened the rules up.

Can't they apply the punishment next season instead?

[lookwhaticando]

Isn't UEFA now run by some French bastard?

No chance of him taking on corruption...

[Finnegan]

fook off. All of you.

I think tonight and the World Cup final went a long way to saying "sod you, we damn well CAN play football." You're telling me they rigged the biggest two events on the footballing calendar? Get bent. Milan and Italy respectively as teams of football PLAYERS have gone out in both tournaments and said "sure, there's corruption from our officials - but we're fooking GOOD on the pitch." Should Pippo, Kaka, Nesta and co have to suffer because some bent stiffs in suits want to buy their good luck? No.

I'd be embarrassed to have started this thread and almost as embarrassed to have gone along with it.

[Ultra]

You miss the point completely.

Although Milan have probably been the best team in this season's Champions League, a significant factor in how they qualified for it in the first place was because Berlusconi or some other crook was offering bungs on their behalf.

Given that Juventus were kicked out of not only the Champions League but also Serie A (and were also given a hefty points penalty on top of that), Milan got off VERY lightly in comparison!

Their role in in such a massive corruption scandal, and UEFA's appalling impotence to take action against it, send a disturbing message to the whole football world!

[Sooper Steve's shin]

fook off. All of you.

I think tonight and the World Cup final went a long way to saying "sod you, we damn well CAN play football." You're telling me they rigged the biggest two events on the footballing calendar? Get bent. Milan and Italy respectively as teams of football PLAYERS have gone out in both tournaments and said "sure, there's corruption from our officials - but we're fooking GOOD on the pitch." Should Pippo, Kaka, Nesta and co have to suffer because some bent stiffs in suits want to buy their good luck? No.

I'd be embarrassed to have started this thread and almost as embarrassed to have gone along with it.

Well said. Fourth best team in Italy beat two of England's best. The national team beat the World Cup hosts in one of the classic games of any tournament. Pirlo, Cannavaro, Gattuso, Grosso (and more) would have made any team in Germany 06.

Would there have been any comments about "unfairness" if Milan had gone out in the Group stage?

[Finnegan]

I don't miss the point entirely, you miss mine. Eleven of the best players in Europe, nay, football went out today and worked their socks off for a trophy they obviously seemed to care more about than the best England had to throw at them.

You don't know Milan are shits and cheats, you don't know they were lightly punished, you don't know they're undeserving and it's a mockery to football - you just believe they are because the Sun, the Mirror, the Mail and every other disgrace to the free press says so. I'm not naive enough to believe the world of football is innocent, and I'm certainly not naive enough (as some of you seem to be) to believe the Italians are the only ones doing it.

All I know is, most of that Milan side have been together for years. They've been loyal to the club, for years - and the club has been successful for decades. If they're not deserving, I don't know who is. Because on merit of tonight's performance - Liverpool most certainly are not.

[lookwhaticando]

Would there have been any comments about "unfairness" if Milan had gone out in the Group stage?

Yes... but probably not as much.

Surely Match fixing must rank as the most serious crime in the world of team sports? Performance enhancing drugs in a team game won't do much to affect results unless the whole team is at it. Bungs to agents doesn't affect the results much either. Arranging matches to be fixed and certain results given has an obvious direct affect on the results - that's just plain wrong in every sense.

AC Milan were found guilty of fixing matches - and that's the bottom line. As a club they participated in an attempt to pervert the results and manipulate their position within their domestic competitions. To me, that's just not on. And the fact that they were allowed to compete in such a lucrative competition as the Champions League when they've found to be guilty of a very serious crime... it just beggars belief.

I don't care about tonight's match in and of itself - Milan won because Liverpool failed to take their chances. But why should AC Milan even have been allowed this far into the competition when found guilty of downright corruption?

That's what riles me.

Back at the time of the Heysel disaster (something the fans, not the clubs caused) British clubs were banned from European competition for several years. How is it the fans can get clubs banned from competition for being deemed dangerous (for an extended period), while clubs don't get banned (even for a single season) from Europe for being deemed corrupt?

Something went mightily wrong there.

AC Milan as a club has not been punished even remotely for the crimes they committed - 8 points is almost meaningless, and now they've won the Champions League with all the financial bonus such achievements entail.

[Daggers]

within 12 months of the italian league being disgraced and found guilty of match fixing (again) - they can go on to win the world cup and the champions league - crime, it seems, does pay.

not saying that was the case tonight, but how can italian teams seriously still be allowed to compete at this level!

At least they didn't win by cheating

[Lillehamring]

fook off. All of you.

I think tonight and the World Cup final went a long way to saying "sod you, we damn well CAN play football." You're telling me they rigged the biggest two events on the footballing calendar? Get bent. Milan and Italy respectively as teams of football PLAYERS have gone out in both tournaments and said "sure, there's corruption from our officials - but we're fooking GOOD on the pitch." Should Pippo, Kaka, Nesta and co have to suffer because some bent stiffs in suits want to buy their good luck? No.

I'd be embarrassed to have started this thread and almost as embarrassed to have gone along with it.

not in the least bit embarrassed:

a) it's a perfectly debatable subject, that is why we talk here.

b) i, personally, find it very hard to stomach any success achieved unfairly

c) i made it clear that i wasn't suggesting that match fixing took place last night or at the world cup - even tho i stand by the argument that, given the close proximity, timewise, of these events it is rather insulting, given the punishment that EVERY club in England suffered - so soon after proven guilty, it is not difficult to feel slightly distrustful of italian football - if the cap fits etc.

d) re:last night - they defended ok against a lightweight liverpool, hardly worked their socks off, lucky with the first goal, and looked (apart from the second goal) very average coming forwards, lost count of how many passes they put straight into touch.

e) gattuso, inzaghi (getting 'winded/shot in the stomach'), et al - hmmm, hardly represents good honest football.

f) didn't think the ref was any worse than we'd see down city, tho concerned that he was warning milan about timewasting at 70mins, 3 mins extra time was rather kind to milan (not that i think that would have really made much difference).

thank you, if you're easily embarrased, perhaps you should bury yr head a little deeper in the sand.

[The Reverend]

not in the least bit embarrassed:

a) it's a perfectly debatable subject, that is why we talk here.

b) i, personally, find it very hard to stomach any success achieved unfairly

c) i made it clear that i wasn't suggesting that match fixing took place last night or at the world cup - even tho i stand by the argument that, given the close proximity, timewise, of these events it is rather insulting, given the punishment that EVERY club in England suffered - so soon after proven guilty, it is not difficult to feel slightly distrustful of italian football - if the cap fits etc.

d) re:last night - they defended ok against a lightweight liverpool, hardly worked their socks off, lucky with the first goal, and looked (apart from the second goal) very average coming forwards, lost count of how many passes they put straight into touch.

e) gattuso, inzaghi (getting 'winded/shot in the stomach'), et al - hmmm, hardly represents good honest football.

f) didn't think the ref was any worse than we'd see down city, tho concerned that he was warning milan about timewasting at 70mins, 3 mins extra time was rather kind to milan (not that i think that would have really made much difference).

thank you, if you're easily embarrased, perhaps you should bury yr head a little deeper in the sand.

Too right.

Milan Should not have been in the competiton due to the match fixing.

I dont give a flying **** how good they are, whether they are the best team in Europe, or whether they worked their bollocks off.

At the end of the day they shouldnt have been in the competition.

Another factor not mentioned is the points deduction in the league effectively ending the clubs chances of winning it - which means they can what?

Concentrate on the Champs League/rest players in the league. Another unfair part of the deal.

Of course its not the fault of the players - its the hierarchy of the club - and they should be punished by not getting the financial gains that come with just competing in the Champs League - let alone winning it.

[Finnegan]

With a ten point deduction and most likely with every official eye in the country watching their every move, Milan still finished fourth this season in Serie A. They're still one of if not the best teams in Europe and the spectacle of the Champions League deserves the best sides. Milan's guilt is minimal where at all, you forget the scandal was largely focused around Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina; all of whom the prosecutor asked to be relegated. Juve to C1, at least, and Lazio and Fiorentina to B. Milan's recommended punishment for whatever they ACTUALLY did was a suggested 3 points, he said.

Again, I'm not claiming they're innocent - but they key is that if you honestly believe English football is free of sin and that by some sort of default you're more deserving, then you're truly naive. Milan were punished and they came back, that's the bottom line. Your moaning now and the timing of your moaning just looks like bitterness from where I'm sat.

Concentrate on the Champs League/rest players in the league. Another unfair part of the deal.

Yeah while Liverpool were well and truly chasing the title all season? What are you, retarded?

its the hierarchy of the club - and they should be punished by not getting the financial gains that come with just competing in the Champs League - let alone winning it.

You mean like being banned from football for years? Oh wait...

[Lillehamring]

no, english football is terrible as well - with so much money involved, i'm sure everyone is at it - the TIMING of this MOAN, is not unsurprising, seeing the manager and owner of milan looking very pleased with themselves, was painful to watch,

had i been posting, i would have moaned likewise after the world cup - i remember sitting there thinking 'this stinks' - players involved in match fixing (even indirectly) winning the world cup, how can this be allowed, and i feel the same way now.

as for the judge - 3 points - based on that kind of punishment, milan's involvement must have been turning up late for a match or something! how many points were boro(?) docked when the had too many sick players and didn't field a team. and what about swindon, don't remember them fixing matches... 3 points! must have been gutted being docked 8, bit like ricky gervaise's snake in Animals!!!

sorry, but english footbal knows what it is like to be punished, why is every other nation treated so softly - i remember a news report from italy where some fans had thrown a scooter (oh yes) from the top teir and killed someone - god, in england you can't even take yr umbrella in to a ground!

sour grapes? no just longing for some balance

[The Reverend]

With a ten point deduction and most likely with every official eye in the country watching their every move, Milan still finished fourth this season in Serie A. They're still one of if not the best teams in Europe and the spectacle of the Champions League deserves the best sides. Milan's guilt is minimal where at all, you forget the scandal was largely focused around Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina; all of whom the prosecutor asked to be relegated. Juve to C1, at least, and Lazio and Fiorentina to B. Milan's recommended punishment for whatever they ACTUALLY did was a suggested 3 points, he said.

Again, I'm not claiming they're innocent - but they key is that if you honestly believe English football is free of sin and that by some sort of default you're more deserving, then you're truly naive. Milan were punished and they came back, that's the bottom line. Your moaning now and the timing of your moaning just looks like bitterness from where I'm sat.

Yeah while Liverpool were well and truly chasing the title all season? What are you, retarded?

You mean like being banned from football for years? Oh wait...

Yes, but it wasnt forced upon Liverpool to concentrate on the Champs League was it and besides, Liverpool put strong teams out in most Prem matches unlike Milan. And no, im not retarded thankyou.

I dont give a f#ck about English football. Im not talking aout that am i? And why would i be bitter? I have no bias towards any team. I am a Leicester fan - hence why i am posting in a Leicester forum you imbecile - i just want to see some consistency and equality between all team.

And no, i mean by Milan being kicked out of european competiton (dont know how to do all this fancy highlighting quotes bollocks).

Obviously i dont know what Milan did (as you dont) so all we can do is speculate. The question you have to ask though is if it was a smaller team such as Empoli, would they have got the same treatment?

[Ultra]

I don't miss the point entirely, you miss mine. Eleven of the best players in Europe, nay, football went out today and worked their socks off for a trophy they obviously seemed to care more about than the best England had to throw at them.

I wasn't questioning the players' ability in any way, shape or form - it's beyond doubt - merely pointing out that they are employed by a tainted club.

You don't know Milan are shits and cheats, you don't know they were lightly punished, you don't know they're undeserving and it's a mockery to football - you just believe they are because the Sun, the Mirror, the Mail and every other disgrace to the free press says so.

There's plenty of evidence within Italy to indict them, without having to rely on whatever the British tabloids may make up. The fact is that UEFA sources wanted to keep them out of European competitions for this season, only to find their rules at the time did not allow them to be banned.

I'm not naive enough to believe the world of football is innocent, and I'm certainly not naive enough (as some of you seem to be) to believe the Italians are the only ones doing it.

They're not - we've seen this season how easily Premiership clubs (Liverpool included) can bend rules, even break them. However, that's not the issue here.

All I know is, most of that Milan side have been together for years. They've been loyal to the club, for years - and the club has been successful for decades.

And in most cases, those players have been extremely well rewarded. There have however been a few questions asked over those decades as to how at least some of that success has been achieved. Italian football has been living under a cloud of suspicion for a long, long time, ever since the sixties...

If they're not deserving, I don't know who is.

A team that plays by the rules, perhaps?

Because on merit of tonight's performance - Liverpool most certainly are not.

That I can agree on, but are you just saying this because Bellamy didn't play?

[Raj]

Im glad Milan won...wouldn't have stomached seeing all them scousers on tv singing and dancing about winning 6 Euro Cups!

Well done Milan!

And before anyone bleats on about supporting the english team SHUTUP!!!

If thats the case the same should be said for EVERY person supporting their HOME club...There is NO difference.

I bet not all Mancs,evertonians etc...were supporting Liverpool yday.

Would you want Forest or Derby to win any cup in Europe?

Also don't believe all the hype about scousers being 'a family of football lovers','wonderful caring people' etc.....

Bo@@ocks!

[Finnegan]

Going to do my best to respond to all three of you, so bare with me here.

Valer:

how many points were boro(?) docked when the had too many sick players and didn't field a team. and what about swindon, don't remember them fixing matches... 3 points!

sorry, but english footbal knows what it is like to be punished, why is every other nation treated so softly

Aye. By the English football association? If you've an issue here it's that the FA are harsher with their punishments than their Italian equivalent. These aren't punishments handed out by FIFA or UEFA, but independent governing bodies left with the responsibility to manager their country's football. If there was some titanic miscarriage of justice you'd expect FIFA or UEFA to intervene. You're telling me they don't because of some huge bias against English clubs? Please. I doubt Platini's much of a Milan fan and he didn't seem all that troubled by their victory last night.

Mickey:

Yes, but it wasnt forced upon Liverpool to concentrate on the Champs League was it

Ok, let's be honest with ourselves here - even with a points deduction AC Milan had more chance of winning Serie A than Liverpool did the Premiership! The Premiership was a two horse race all year and any pundit could have told you that in September, let alone once the Champions League got into full swing. Milan and Liverpool would have had exactly the same goal this term; qualify for next year's CL. Inter were absolutely awesome this term, fair play, but Milan will be back in Championship contention next year and they'll still be there or there abouts in the Champions League as well. Stop being a child and drop this argument, it does your over-all debate no favours, kiddo.

Obviously i dont know what Milan did (as you dont) so all we can do is speculate. The question you have to ask though is if it was a smaller team such as Empoli, would they have got the same treatment?

You mean like Reggina Calcio's more-or-less equal points deduction?

Ah, Ultra, my Ultra:

There's plenty of evidence within Italy to indict them, without having to rely on whatever the British tabloids may make up. The fact is that UEFA sources wanted to keep them out of European competitions for this season, only to find their rules at the time did not allow them to be banned.

What evidence within Italy? The courts? (that passed their verdict rather in Milan's favour?) The Media? (how different are they to our press?) The fans? (Because clearly, the footballing rumour mill knows all.) Come on, you can't make a statement like that without expanding on it. The same court that demoted Juve merely docked Milan points and accepted their involvement as minimal. What can you present that justifies their further punishment, beyond "fock off, they must be cheats, don't let them have the trophy!"

You can't damn a football club for life because they have officials who have been caught bending the rules. They were inevitably going to go on and be victorious in something down the line and this year's as good as any other. It'd be interesting to hear you all had, say, Leicester been in the same situation. We'd all be furious with the board for betraying us, but would be so troubled about any future successes coming to a "tainted" club?

hey're not - we've seen this season how easily Premiership clubs (Liverpool included) can bend rules, even break them. However, that's not the issue here.

Why isn't it the issue? Liverpool can bend and break the rules and that's "not the issue", why? Because it's never been to a court itself? Milan are found guilty and are punished, and suddenly that's an issue. You're claiming Liverpool are probably guilty of behind-the-scenes offences but that's not a problem?

That I can agree on, but are you just saying this because Bellamy didn't play?

No, I'm "just saying that" because Liverpool went to sleep in the second half, lacked hunger, ambition and seemingly the will to win the game. Rather uncharacteristic, God knows what was said at half time. Judging by the interviews after the final whistle it's almost like they all believed the timing of the first goal killed it. Woeful.

[potter3]

Although I don't think Milan should have been entered in the competition, you three aren't exactly putting a good argument across

Both teams were crap last night though, apart from Milan's second goal.

And it can't be changed now, thes best team won, whether it was right or not

[The Reverend]

Going to do my best to respond to all three of you, so bare with me here.

Valer:

Aye. By the English football association? If you've an issue here it's that the FA are harsher with their punishments than their Italian equivalent. These aren't punishments handed out by FIFA or UEFA, but independent governing bodies left with the responsibility to manager their country's football. If there was some titanic miscarriage of justice you'd expect FIFA or UEFA to intervene. You're telling me they don't because of some huge bias against English clubs? Please. I doubt Platini's much of a Milan fan and he didn't seem all that troubled by their victory last night.

Mickey:

Ok, let's be honest with ourselves here - even with a points deduction AC Milan had more chance of winning Serie A than Liverpool did the Premiership! The Premiership was a two horse race all year and any pundit could have told you that in September, let alone once the Champions League got into full swing. Milan and Liverpool would have had exactly the same goal this term; qualify for next year's CL. Inter were absolutely awesome this term, fair play, but Milan will be back in Championship contention next year and they'll still be there or there abouts in the Champions League as well. Stop being a child and drop this argument, it does your over-all debate no favours, kiddo.

You mean like Reggina Calcio's more-or-less equal points deduction?

Ah, Ultra, my Ultra:

What evidence within Italy? The courts? (that passed their verdict rather in Milan's favour?) The Media? (how different are they to our press?) The fans? (Because clearly, the footballing rumour mill knows all.) Come on, you can't make a statement like that without expanding on it. The same court that demoted Juve merely docked Milan points and accepted their involvement as minimal. What can you present that justifies their further punishment, beyond "fock off, they must be cheats, don't let them have the trophy!"

You can't damn a football club for life because they have officials who have been caught bending the rules. They were inevitably going to go on and be victorious in something down the line and this year's as good as any other. It'd be interesting to hear you all had, say, Leicester been in the same situation. We'd all be furious with the board for betraying us, but would be so troubled about any future successes coming to a "tainted" club?

Why isn't it the issue? Liverpool can bend and break the rules and that's "not the issue", why? Because it's never been to a court itself? Milan are found guilty and are punished, and suddenly that's an issue. You're claiming Liverpool are probably guilty of behind-the-scenes offences but that's not a problem?

No, I'm "just saying that" because Liverpool went to sleep in the second half, lacked hunger, ambition and seemingly the will to win the game. Rather uncharacteristic, God knows what was said at half time. Judging by the interviews after the final whistle it's almost like they all believed the timing of the first goal killed it. Woeful.

Well, i meant in an isolated incident where just a small team commited a 'crime'.

Of course they had to give the same punishment (and i notice you say more or less) to the smaller team becuse they set the example with Milan, but if just Reggina did it, would the punishment have been the same?

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree

You just cannot argue that Milan should be in the Champions League tho, even though you still will.

[Lillehamring]

christ, if an italian court finds a team guilty, i think that's as strong an argument as anyone can put forward - there are many cheats in this sport (too many - especially the players) italian football was and has been before, found guilty - therefore they are PROVEN cheats, by allowing italian football to remain active, is to allow cheating to remain unpunished; and to see them suceed, it is inevitable that one who believes in fairness and honesty will feel sickened watching a sporting body, proven corrupt, suceeding.

let us all, then, cheat and prosper and justify ourselves by being reassured that we are good enough to have won without cheating.

that is what is worst about this, in the same way that renaldo & drogba are so good they don't need to cheat - but still do, milan and juve don't need to fix matches, but they are greedy, and seem to have more or less got away with it... and before anyone cites demotion as a just punishment... this is matchfixing, the lowest of the low - not a victimless crime