Army admits 'not defeating IRA'

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

The Army has admitted for the first time that it did not win the war against the IRA.

The admission is contained in an internal document released by the Ministry of Defence after a request under the Freedom of Information Act.

The Army also admitted mistakes were made on Bloody Sunday, but only in how it deployed its vehicles.

The 100 page document analyses in detail the British army's role in Northern Ireland over 37 years.

It focuses on specific operations as well as providing an overview of its performance.

The document, obtained by the Pat Finucane Centre, points to a number of mistakes, including internment and highlights what lessons have been learnt.

It describes the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

The Army admits mistakes over Bloody Sunday - but only in how it used vehicles during the arrest operation.

It concedes for the first time that it did not win the battle against the IRA - but claims to have "shown the IRA that it could not achieve its ends through violence".

In a statement, the Pat Finucane Centre - a human rights group - said the document "betrays a profoundly colonial mindset towards the conflict here and those involved in it".

"Loyalist violence and the links between loyalist paramilitaries and the state has been airbrushed out of this military history," it said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/norther...and/6276416.stm

I am happy to see the army leave Ireland after decades of state terror and collusion with the abovementioned 'gangsters'.

How long now before a complete withdrawal? How much more can the political landscape change?

[l444ry]

"Not defeating IRA" is a rather vague and obvious statement, don't you think?. As the IRA were a terrorist organisation it is bloody obvious that it would be impossible to prove them "beaten." One thing is certain, however, the IRA didn't "win" either. Therefore, the British Army never lost - so the whole article is silly season claptrap.

[Hullfox]

"Not defeating IRA" is a rather vague and obvious statement, don't you think?. As the IRA were a terrorist organisation it is bloody obvious that it would be impossible to prove them "beaten." One thing is certain, however, the IRA didn't "win" either. Therefore, the British Army never lost - so the whole article is silly season claptrap.

You took the words right out of my keyboard.

It almost sounds like a victory cry by the bhoy.

[Webbo]

There's been a lot of upset on this forum by people who didn't know how to ignore tw@ts.

no comment.

[Alexikokopops]

You took the words right out of my keyboard.

It almost sounds like a victory cry by the bhoy.

And then you took the words right out of my mouth

Oh, it must have been while you were kissin' me

[Hullfox]

And then you took the words right out of my mouth

Oh, it must have been while you were kissin' me

Where did you get that photo of me?

[Alexikokopops]

Where did you get that photo of me?

Don't flatter yourself gaffer, Meat Loaf is one of the finest specimens of manhood around today.

[BartonFox]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/norther...and/6276416.stm

I am happy to see the army leave Ireland after decades of state terror and collusion with the abovementioned 'gangsters'.

How long now before a complete withdrawal? How much more can the political landscape change?

Do you want a chicken supper Bobby Sands

Another plastic paddy, Dan Haven't got the first idea of life in Northern Ireland, especially during the height of the troubles.

[Finnegan]

Mhhhhh. What Barton said, really. We've crossed blades on this before, sort of, I'm not going to dig too much. I do think you should be careful what stones you cast on a predominantly English forum, though, Dan. Especially from your haven some ten thousand whatever miles away.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Mhhhhh. What Barton said, really. We've crossed blades on this before, sort of, I'm not going to dig too much. I do think you should be careful what stones you cast on a predominantly English forum, though, Dan. Especially from your haven some ten thousand whatever miles away.

The stones I cast will be few and far between on this topic as there has been much suffering on both sides of the struggle, and especially since the recent St. Andrew's agreement was designed to break some of the deadlock and make life better for all British/Irish in the north.

But how much further can the political landscape change? From memory one of the topics in the Good Friday Agreement was that a withdrawal would only happen if a majority of people in the six counties voted for it, which I think is ridiculous but was nevertheless necessary to gain UUP support (DUP didn't vote for it at all ). It's like saying that because east London has a good number of Bangladeshi, therefore east London should be part of Bangladesh.

I can't see much happening in the immediate future unless a new approach can be formed, only question is what form would that take? By political weight or by citizens' activism, i.e. top down or bottom up? This article argues a multi-organisational approach.

[l444ry]

The stones I cast will be few and far between on this topic as there has been much suffering on both sides of the struggle, and especially since the recent St. Andrew's agreement was designed to break some of the deadlock and make life better for all British/Irish in the north.

But how much further can the political landscape change? From memory one of the topics in the Good Friday Agreement was that a withdrawal would only happen if a majority of people in the six counties voted for it, which I think is ridiculous but was nevertheless necessary to gain UUP support (DUP didn't vote for it at all ). It's like saying that because east London has a good number of Bangladeshi, therefore east London should be part of Bangladesh.

I can't see much happening in the immediate future unless a new approach can be formed, only question is what form would that take? By political weight or by citizens' activism, i.e. top down or bottom up? This article argues a multi-organisational approach.

Not so silly as you think Dan. It is estimated that by 2020 the Catholics will be the majority in Ulster.

[Zingari]

The stones I cast will be few and far between on this topic as there has been much suffering on both sides of the struggle, and especially since the recent St. Andrew's agreement was designed to break some of the deadlock and make life better for all British/Irish in the north.

But how much further can the political landscape change? From memory one of the topics in the Good Friday Agreement was that a withdrawal would only happen if a majority of people in the six counties voted for it, which I think is ridiculous but was nevertheless necessary to gain UUP support (DUP didn't vote for it at all ). It's like saying that because east London has a good number of Bangladeshi, therefore east London should be part of Bangladesh.I can't see much happening in the immediate future unless a new approach can be formed, only question is what form would that take? By political weight or by citizens' activism, i.e. top down or bottom up? This article argues a multi-organisational approach.

you can bet if this did happen it would not be long before there would be emergency funds being set up for earthquakes or floods there

[Webbo]

But how much further can the political landscape change? From memory one of the topics in the Good Friday Agreement was that a withdrawal would only happen if a majority of people in the six counties voted for it, which I think is ridiculous but was nevertheless necessary to gain UUP support (DUP didn't vote for it at all ). It's like saying that because east London has a good number of Bangladeshi, therefore east London should be part of Bangladesh.

I know I said I'd ignore this but am I the only one who finds this ironic coming from an Australian?

Are you planning to give up all your political rights in favour of the Aboriginals. Or are you saying that immigrants and their descendants shouldn't be allowed a vote in the UK?

[Hullfox]

Not so silly as you think Dan. It is estimated that by 2020 the Catholics will be the majority in Ulster.

It's the pope's fault that. If he consented to contraception, it would take until 2025.

[Finnegan]

It's the pope's fault that. If he consented to contraception, it would take until 2025.

:D

[l444ry]

It's the pope's fault that. If he consented to contraception, it would take until 2025.

All joking apart, that is the very reason why a Catholic majority is inevitable by 2025.

Protestants make up half of the schoolchildren in Ulster.

Protestants make up two-thirds of the elderly in Ulster - and thus two-thirds of all deaths.

Fertility rates are still higher in Catholic areas than Protestant areas.

More than half of religious weddings in Ulster take place in Catholic churches.

So it is obvious that Ian Paisley had to share power before power was taken from Protestants, and after 9/11 why the Republicans could afford to change tactics without losing face.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

I know I said I'd ignore this but am I the only one who finds this ironic coming from an Australian?

Are you planning to give up all your political rights in favour of the Aboriginals. Or are you saying that immigrants and their descendants shouldn't be allowed a vote in the UK?

I have a particular amount of pride for my nation like the next nationalist, but with this comes disgust for what my forebears have done.

The fact that women weren't allowed a vote until the early 1900's and aborigines until 1969 says it all. By 1969 man had landed on the moon, and the declaration of human rights and international law had long been in place.

The essence of revolutionary thought is not confined to race or sect. I note that many posters are equating republicanism = catholicism, which while statistically has some weight is not entirely accurate. Republicanism has had support of many protestants over the years.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

All joking apart, that is the very reason why a Catholic majority is inevitable by 2025.

Protestants make up half of the schoolchildren in Ulster.

Protestants make up two-thirds of the elderly in Ulster - and thus two-thirds of all deaths.

Fertility rates are still higher in Catholic areas than Protestant areas.

More than half of religious weddings in Ulster take place in Catholic churches.

So it is obvious that Ian Paisley had to share power before power was taken from Protestants, and after 9/11 why the Republicans could afford to change tactics without losing face.

Source?

Also remember that not all catholics support a united Ireland, this poll from citizens in six counties:

Poll indicates Irish unity unlikely

(by Liam Clarke, Sunday Times)

26 June 2007

Irish unity is not likely to command majority support in Northern Ireland for the foreseeable future, a survey has found. Most people want the province to remain indefinitely as part of the United Kingdom. This is favoured by 54%, compared to 30% who want a united Ireland.

The annual Northern Ireland Life and Times survey, conducted by the province's two universities, has found that traditional constitutional issues are concerning people less. Some 40% of those surveyed – including 30% of Protestants and 42% of Catholics – said they were neither nationalist nor unionist.

Support for remaining in the UK is nearly unanimous among Protestants (85%) and commands the support of 22% of Catholics, of whom just over half (56%) favour Irish unity. If a united Ireland never comes, some 86% of Catholics say they would accept the popular will. On the other hand, if there is a majority vote for Irish unity, 84% of Protestants would either happily accept it (31%) or could at least live with it (53%).

As the marching season approaches, there is evidence of strong opposition to its traditional activities: 76% of Protestants and 86% of Catholics oppose flags being flown, while 12% actively support the idea. Around nine in 10 in both communities would like their neighbourhoods and workplaces to be politically neutral.

There is hope that sectarianism is declining: only 4% of people think Catholic/Protestant relationships are likely to deteriorate over the next five years. Many expressed willingness to form friendships with people of other Christian denominations; only 15% said they would object strongly if a relative married someone of another religion. Large majorities in both communities say they would like to see more mixed neighborhoods, schools and workplaces.

Only a tiny minority (5%) think that either Catholics or Protestants are "generally treated unfairly when compared with other groups". By contrast 39% thought ethnic minorities were treated unfairly and 31% felt that bisexuals, gays and lesbians were discriminated against.

This also came through when people expressed their attitudes to interracial marriage. Three out of four wouldn't mind a close relative marrying someone of another religion but 87% said they wouldn't readily accept a relative marrying a traveller, while 84% wouldn't accept a marriage to a Muslim and 75% one to a person from an ethnic minority.

In the poll, 53% wouldn't find travellers acceptable as Northern Ireland residents, and 82% would not accept them as friends.

[Alexikokopops]

I went to Uni and played hockey with David Trimble's daughter.

[l444ry]

Source?

http://www.ofmdfmni.gov.uk/lfs-religion-report-2005.pdf

Mainly page 7, I think.

[Thracian]

No-one deserves any credit for the attrocities commited in the name of mankind during The Troubles.

Northern Ireland is another country whose children grow up brainwashed into following certain religious and social beliefs by adults who are supposed to have responsibility for their welfare and for educating/advising them wisely and truthfully.

Sadly, just because a responsible adult believes something doesn't necessarily mean that it's right nor does it give them the right to impose that belief on others.

In fact, since time immemorial, thousands of unnecessary wars have been fought and millions upon millions have been killed as a result of leaders and other men of influence seeking to impose their will, their beliefs, and their ability to control/ intimidate on inexperienced and easily influenced young minds.

Mankind might finally develop as a species when wisdom prevails which enables the mental and spiritual teaching of young people to be aimed at THEIR education and wellbeing rather than the furthering of beliefs/opinions held by the "teachers" or those they represent.

Such "tutoring" is not education, it is calculated conditioning.

[Head Honcho]

Sure l'm an Ulster Orangeman, from Erin's isle I came,

To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,

And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,

That I might have the right to wear, the sash my father wore!

Chorus:

It is old but it is beautiful, and its colors they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.

My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore,

And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore.

Chorus

For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain

Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,

If the call should come we'll follow the drum, and cross that river once more

That tomorrow's Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

Chorus

And when some day, across the sea to Antrim's shore you come,

We'll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum

And Ulster's hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore

As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

http://www.ofmdfmni.gov.uk/lfs-religion-report-2005.pdf

Mainly page 7, I think.

Thanks for that. Although I doubt an increase of 3% in RC young people since 1990 would, if repeated over the next 15 years, mean an outright majority of total RCs. And even then as that poll suggests not all RCs would necessarily back reunification - politics is becoming less and less bound to sects, which is of course a good thing. Was reading about a protestant clergyman becoming a recent Sinn Féin activist as well as a former RUC officer. It doesn't take belonging to a sect to be passionate about a political situation.

No-one deserves any credit for the attrocities commited in the name of mankind during The Troubles.

Northern Ireland is another country whose children grow up brainwashed into following certain religious and social beliefs by adults who are supposed to have responsibility for their welfare and for educating/advising them wisely and truthfully.

Sadly, just because a responsible adult believes something doesn't necessarily mean that it's right nor does it give them the right to impose that belief on others.

In fact, since time immemorial, thousands of unnecessary wars have been fought and millions upon millions have been killed as a result of leaders and other men of influence seeking to impose their will, their beliefs, and their ability to control/ intimidate on inexperienced and easily influenced young minds.

Mankind might finally develop as a species when wisdom prevails which enables the mental and spiritual teaching of young people to be aimed at THEIR education and wellbeing rather than the furthering of beliefs/opinions held by the "teachers" or those they represent.

Such "tutoring" is not education, it is calculated conditioning.

Whilst I agree in principle with the sentiment, I don't think reducing a war to an argument about 'conditioning' is helpful.

Sure everyone should seek their own wisdom and spirituality, but national identity is something which is important to many people, and defines cultural and social status. The English for example have a wonderful nation and culture and are proud of it, and so they should be.

I advocate cooperation and acceptance between nations (I don't use the word 'tolerance' because that implies you don't like the idea to begin with), but would not for a second seek to diminish anyone's national status.

Ireland is a partitioned country that came about in 1920 not by the will of its people, but by an act of British parliament. Just another example of a country actively interfering in the politics of another, which breeds contempt - you need only look at the US meddling in Palestine or the coalition's role in Iraq and note the outcomes and actions of its people.

Add decades of discrimination and you have a real problem on your hands - why people should be made to feel inferior in their own country is beyond me, it goes against what the state is supposed to stand for.

That's why it's important now more than ever to seek to unite the green and the orange under the banner of Irish men and women, not to separate them. To seek to unite a people where the state has created division. It's beginning as we speak, with the British army ending this 'tit-for-tat' nonsense with the IRA as per the article, and similarly with the IRA's decommissioning. Also with Sinn Féin's backing of the PSNI in seeking to end discrimination and sitting with unionists in a devolved assembly.

More 'extreme' republicans are disgusted by these actions but I see it as a fresh start and a way forward to unity.

[Finnegan]

I think blaming the Troubles entirely on religion is largely simplifying the issue, Thracian. Sure it's been fueled by many things, and Christian sects is definitely one of them, but it's very easy to sit there tutting about Irish religious nut-cases and happily forget the impact of the British on the situation in general.

[Thracian]

I think blaming the Troubles entirely on religion is largely simplifying the issue, Thracian. Sure it's been fueled by many things, and Christian sects is definitely one of them, but it's very easy to sit there tutting about Irish religious nut-cases and happily forget the impact of the British on the situation in general.

How can young people grow up to think clearly, rationally, freely and for the betterment of all mankind if they are brainwashed with questionable religious dogma from day one?

Religion could serve a purpose in promoting genuinely decent values, though so could good education.

But all too often religious concepts are abused by unscrupulous, serve-serving individuals to gain control over people's minds through questionable rhetoric, fear, threats and intimidation.

There is nothing decent about that. That is manipulation. It is not education or wise counselling.

Indeed from a genuinely religious point of view I could argue that seeking to control peoples minds is the worst sin there is and probably the most dangerous to the welfare of people on this planet, as many have demonstrated.

As for the impact of the British in Ireland if we can largely get over the German attempt to subject our people less than 50 years ago I am sure the Irish can put TheTroubles, Bloody Sunday and the Potato Famine behind them. Allowing hatred and bitterness to fester is erosive as some, at last, seem to appreciate.

Those that don't might learn from the innocent.

My grandson lost his three-year-old half-brother this morning. As he said: "He's safe now. He's gone to live with the angels".

You weep. You wonder why. And you try to heal...as do the many, many families of all the victims of conflict and tragedy in Ireland, in Iraq, in Afghanistan and in Stoke on Trent today.

It serves no purpose to curse, hate or be negative whether about the British, the Germans or the medical problems which left a little boy unable to survive even to the age where he might go to school.

All you can hope for is that experience of untimely death and the despair it brings inspires all concerned to be better people as a result of feeling the pain of their loss. It is the only hope really for all those in the trouble spots of the world today.

Untimely loss of life is bad enough when it is unavoidable. To perpetrate it willingly always shows the insane consequence of manipulation by people in power and it's ime it stopped everywhere and for any reason. The Troubles were fueled by hatrid yet will be cured by forgiveness, communication and mutual goodwill.