dandannieldanok Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Article from the BBC Sports star ice baths questioned The research challenges the no pain, no gain theory Paula Radcliffe may say they are the secret of her success, but Australian research is questioning the benefits of taking an ice bath after exercise. Physiotherapists recommend the bath as a way to speed up recovery, claiming the icy cold helps shift lactic acid. But this is unproven, and a study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine now claims the opposite may be true. Out of 40 volunteers, those who took an icy plunge reported more pain after 24 hours than those who took a tepid bath. Tepid response Ice baths have become one of the most fashionable ways of recovering after an intense game or marathon. From rugby to tennis players, the bath has a series of celebrity endorsers. The theory is that the icy cold causes the blood vessels to tighten, and drains the blood along with waste products such as lactic acid out of the legs. When Jonny Wilkinson or Paula Radcliffe emerge from the bath, their limbs fill up with fresh blood which invigorates the muscles with oxygen and helps the cells repair. Ice-water immersion offers no benefit for pain, swelling, isometric strength and function, and in fact may make more athletes sore the next day Although physiotherapists who promote the bath have had little evidence to prove this, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence from the athletes themselves that the bath makes them feel better. In line with this theory, the study carried out at the University of Melbourne had expected to find a 25% reduction in pain after 48 hours among those who had the ice immersion. Instead it found that there was no difference in physical pain measurements such as swelling or tenderness, and in fact those who had been in the ice reported more pain when going from a sitting to a standing position after 24 hours than those who had the tepid treatment. "This study challenges the use of ice-water immersion in athletes," wrote the researchers. "Ice-water immersion offers no benefit for pain, swelling, isometric strength and function, and in fact may make more athletes sore the next day." It was unclear why the ice may had this effect, and the researchers said further study was needed. John Brewer, Director of the Lucozade Sports Science Academy, said he did not find it surprising that there was no difference between the two samples. "I don't find it hard to believe that the ice doesn't have any long-term benefit, although I would question whether the ice group really did feel more pain after 24 hours than the tepid group. The problem with pain is that it is subjective and very hard to measure," he said. "And because it's subjective, there may even be a placebo effect on those who take the cold bath. It's part of their ritual, it finishes off the endurance test, and many clearly report that it makes them feel better." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluefoxtim Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 These reports p*ss me off... I remember a few years ago there was an article saying how apples were in fact very bad for you and the "apple a day keeps the doctor away" statement should be forgotten. Pointless really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l444ry Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Perhaps the earth is flat after all....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Perhaps the earth is flat after all....... I see no evidence to refute that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
botFOX Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 well I've used ice baths for many years and they've worked for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l444ry Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 I see no evidence to refute that! Wherever you find people with a great reservoir of common sense, they don't believe idiotic things such as the earth spinning around the sun. Reasonable, intelligent people have always recognized that the earth is flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovejoy Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 How thoroughly interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookwhaticando Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Juice is good for you. It's also bad for you. It depends who you believe. Bottom line is - if it's in a report, it should be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrivins2 Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 paula radcliffe would not waste her time and go through the pain if they did not work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_foxes Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Just one of those things, people have there theories about it. Can't really be proven, can't be disproven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonbluefox9 Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 I did about exercise for my last AS module in Biology and if I remember correctly muscles ache after exercise because we respire anaerobically when exercising intensively. This produces acidic conditions in the muscles due to an increase in Hydrogen ions and the shape of the the muscles alter slightly. This makes contractions of the muscles less smooth because the fibres don't fit together as they should. It's a subject I find interesting but unfortunately A-level Biology isn't very specific. You cover many topics that have nothing to do with human biology so my knowledge on it is limited. Surely out of a group of 30 players some will find it has no benefit, some will feel it helps aid recovery and some will feel worse than if they didn't have one. Everyone's different, it's all about finding things which work for the majority and tailoring things for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonisco Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 I did about exercise for my last AS module in Biology and if I remember correctly muscles ache after exercise because we respire anaerobically when exercising intensively. This produces acidic conditions in the muscles due to an increase in Hydrogen ions and the shape of the the muscles alter slightly. This makes contractions of the muscles less smooth because the fibres don't fit together as they should. It's a subject I find interesting but unfortunately A-level Biology isn't very specific. You cover many topics that have nothing to do with human biology so my knowledge on it is limited. True, we ended up doing a whole ****ing module on transport systems in plants. Anyway, here's what wikipedia has to say on the subject: "During power-intensive exercises such as sprinting, when the rate of demand for energy is high, lactate is produced faster than the ability of the tissues to remove it and lactate concentration begins to rise. This is a beneficial process since the regeneration of NAD+ ensures that energy production is maintained and exercise can continue. The increased lactate produced can be removed in a number of ways including: oxidation to pyruvate by well-oxygenated muscle cells which is then directly used to fuel the citric acid cycle and conversion to glucose via the Cori cycle in the liver through the process of gluconeogenesis.Contrary to popular belief, this increased concentration of lactate does not directly cause acidosis, nor is it responsible for delayed onset muscle soreness.[1] This is because lactate itself is not capable of releasing a proton, and secondly, the acidic form of lactate, lactic acid, cannot be formed under normal circumstances in human tissues. Analysis of the glycolytic pathway in humans indicates that there are not enough hydrogen ions present in the glycolytic intermediates to produce lactic or any other acid. The acidosis that is associated with increases in lactate concentration during heavy exercise arises from a separate reaction. When ATP is hydrolysed, a hydrogen ion is released. ATP-derived hydrogen ions are primarily responsible for the decrease in pH. During intense exercise, aerobic metabolism cannot produce ATP quickly enough to supply the demands of the muscle. As a result, anaerobic metabolism becomes the dominant energy producing pathway as it can form ATP at high rates. Due to the large amounts of ATP being produced and hydrolysed in a short period of time, the buffering systems of the tissues are overcome, causing pH to fall and creating a state of acidosis. This may be one factor, among many, that contributes to the acute muscular discomfort experienced shortly after intense exercise.[citations needed] The effect of lactate on acidosis has been the topic of many recent conferences in the field of exercise physiology. Robergs et al. have accurately chased the proton movement that occurs during glycolysis. However, in doing so, they have suggested that [H+] is an independent variable that determines its own concentration. A recent review by Lindinger et al.[citation needed] has been written to rebut the stoichiometric approach used by Robergs et al (2004).[1] In using this stoichiometric process, Robergs et al. have ignored the causitive factors (independent variables) of [H+]. These factors are strong ion difference [sID], PCO2, and weak acid buffers. Lactate is a strong anion, and causes a reduction in [sID] which causes and increase in [H+] to maintain electroneutrality. PCO2 also causes an increase in [H+]. During exercise, intramuscular [lactate] and PCO2 increase, causing an increase in [H+], and thus a decrease in pH." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Bob Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 How do you get into a bath if all the water is frozen? Do you just sit on top of it? Surely you would just gets piles :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonisco Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 How do you get into a bath if all the water is frozen? Do you just sit on top of it? Surely you would just gets piles :eek: It's crushed ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Bob Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 It's crushed ice. I know, ever heard of a joke? Sorry not the best one but it was short notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonbluefox9 Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 True, we ended up doing a whole ****ing module on transport systems in plants. We've just started a module on the environment. It's not what I had in mind when I chose Biology this time last year but it's helped me realise what aspects of Biology I'd like to continue with further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonisco Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 I know, ever heard of a joke? Sorry not the best one but it was short notice. Oh right, kinda hard to tell whether someone's being serious or not on a messageboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe. Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Jon you're far too clever for us here on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonbluefox9 Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Jon you're far too clever for us here on this forum. I made it up as I went along... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonisco Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 We've just started a module on the environment. It's not what I had in mind when I chose Biology this time last year but it's helped me realise what aspects of Biology I'd like to continue with further. Yeah, the government have put the environment into the syllabuses on loads of subjects, all the sciences have got it and it's a major part of geography, and there's others aswell. All to do with teaching kids about combatting global warming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Juice is good for you.It's also bad for you. It depends who you believe. Bottom line is - if it's in a report, it should be ignored. This sort of thing really hacks me off. I have a degree in Physics (with Astrophysics no less) and I can tell you now I've never met any 'proper' scientists who'd waste their time coming up with this crap. This sort of thing is what you can read in the Daily Mail every day and is the result of universities having to fund rubbish research in order to make ends meet. Bloody third rate nutitionists or sports 'scientists' (or other equally pointless academic) come out with this as a way of avoiding art college and we all have to suffer pointless drivel written in the tabloid press and in 'women's columns' (why do they have women's columns in newspapers? lets face it they just read the celebrity gossip in heat). Anyway, I've had my rant now. sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l444ry Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 I did about exercise for my last AS module in Biology and if I remember correctly muscles ache after exercise because we respire anaerobically when exercising intensively. This produces acidic conditions in the muscles due to an increase in Hydrogen ions and the shape of the the muscles alter slightly. This makes contractions of the muscles less smooth because the fibres don't fit together as they should. It's a subject I find interesting but unfortunately A-level Biology isn't very specific. You cover many topics that have nothing to do with human biology so my knowledge on it is limited. Surely out of a group of 30 players some will find it has no benefit, some will feel it helps aid recovery and some will feel worse than if they didn't have one. Everyone's different, it's all about finding things which work for the majority and tailoring things for the rest. This is what needs to be grasped. The amount of time in the ice bath is different for each person. Some people are very sensitive to extremes of temperature. They may find cold baths too painful or may go into shock. Others may be almost immune to the cold, stay in too long and have the reverse effect to that intended (reducing inflammation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raj Posted 10 July 2007 Share Posted 10 July 2007 Yeah BUT when you sprain or pull a muscle should you not put ice on it to reduce any inflammation? So surely after intense exercise a cold bath MAY be helpful in aiding recovery times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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