Points to Ponder

[Chandler]

If you take a look at the Championship table you will notice something interesting in the boring mid section. The three relegated sides, occupy 12th, 13th and 15th positions respectively (Leeds, Wolves and Leicester). Anoraks may recall that all these teams went down on the same number of points: 33.

What's even more interesting is that these sides are the current draw specialists in the division with 15, 20 and 18 respectively. So it seems that these sides after a traumatic relegation season are having a bit of a hangover. Sunderland and West Ham had similar difficulties last season and have recovered in varying degrees this season. Will this apply to ourselves next season?

Of the three who came down, least was expected of Leeds. They were reduced to a motley rag tag and bobtail outfit in the close season. They were terrible for half a season and then had a bit of a dead cat's bounce under Ted Bates.

Wolves were very quiet pre season and quietly sank like a stone until the quiet man Hoddle ordered them to play quietly and recover 0-1 deficits in the last minute of every game.

We had a good pre season in the transfer market. I won't go into the rest except to say that our worst form in terms of results (longest winless streak, most games without an away win) has been under Levein. And this is all recent stuff, with his acquisitions.

If we are going to have a stab at promotion next season, evidence for this optimism has to start coming now. Not with subjective evaluations of how well we played (like when we lost 0-1 at home to Forest), but with WINS home and away.

[Chimp]

Thanks for stating the obvious.

[Vo Rogue]

Good points.If this is the nucleus of the team that some of you fans believe with Levein will win promotion with then maybe that should be seen now until season end.Possibly for 90minutes and not in parts like Tuesday night,or the game before that or the game before that......

[step]

As you say CL only has the nucleus of the team that will get us promoted, I think we all agree he needs a couple of goal hungry strikers and he needs them asap.

[jase67]

I think we're a fair way off even having a nucleus of a team that will get us promoted next season. I don't see any solid centre backs, a holding midfield player, a centre forward to hold the ball up and goal scorers dont come cheap.

The plus side of what we have got is Hughes and Williams (not sure how you fit both into a four man midfield),Connolly(most unlucky striker I've ever seen for City), Maybury, and Tiatto.

As for Gillespie, my bet is CL releases him at the end of the season.

The rest either still have plenty to prove or are on there way out.

[Durnerz]

I think we're a fair way off even having a nucleus of a team that will get us promoted next season. I don't see any solid centre backs, a holding midfield player, a centre forward to hold the ball up and goal scorers dont come cheap.

The plus side of what we have got is Hughes and Williams (not sure how you fit both into  a four man midfield),Connolly(most unlucky striker I've ever seen for City), Maybury, and Tiatto.

As for Gillespie, my bet is CL releases him at the end of the season.

The rest either still have plenty to prove or are on there way out.

89963[/snapback]

Mccarthy and Dabizas to me have looked superb over the last few games.

Gillespie released? where do you get that logic from? Leveins playing him time and again and Keiths looking one of our most able and attack minded players, things in the team now tend to go through him and Hughes attacking-wise. Everyone seems to rate williams, we know the ability he has but hes very lazy, drifts in and out the games, I'd have steven Hughes in there ahead of him anyday, Hughes is a consistant player and has a few tricks up his sleeve, also doesnt sit deep at times like Williams.

[breadandcheese]

With Williams, I get the impression that it is a mental attitude rather than question marks over his playing ability. I do not mean that he is lazy, far from, he does work hard for the team. It is more his mental nature to take a game by the scruff of its neck and really compete. If the team is playing well, he shines. If the team is struggling, he will not be the one to dig in deep and drive the team on.

In saying all this, the top players have that mental drive, and it is that which makes them top players. I get the impression that this is something Levein is looking to work on with Williams as he has stated that he sees Williams as a "box-to-box player". If Levein can add this mental drive to Williams game, then we could have an exceptional player on our hands.

[Anish]

Good points there Chandler - I agree with you to a large extent too. Many people here have been quick to write off this season (a fair judgement imo) and say that next season we'll be pushing for promotion. But I haven't seen anything recently to suggest that will be the case. CL needs to realise that MDV isn't the powerful big centre forward we need and also bring in another left sided player.

[Louise]

I'm not sure that CL really sees the squad we have now as just needing a little tweaking before it becomes a successful promotion outfit. He's already said he wants to bring in at least six players in the close season, he seems to be constantly be out scouting somewhere, and there are 14 players out of contract at the end of the season, of which realistically only 3 or 4 will get a new one.

[Vo Rogue]

I'm not sure that CL really sees the squad we have now as just needing a little tweaking before it becomes a successful promotion outfit. He's already said he wants to bring in at least six players in the close season, he seems to be constantly be out scouting somewhere, and there are 14 players out of contract at the end of the season, of which realistically only 3 or 4 will get a new one.

90090[/snapback]

I do get the jitters after the fanfare for De Vriese by Levein and wonder about the real standard of our new Slovenian Wonderstriker!Hope these scouting trips are fruitful for LCFC for the future.

[dynamite foxes]

I really don't think that this slovenian will come to much, but I am willing to be proved wrong

[jase67]

I think we're a fair way off even having a nucleus of a team that will get us promoted next season. I don't see any solid centre backs, a holding midfield player, a centre forward to hold the ball up and goal scorers dont come cheap.

The plus side of what we have got is Hughes and Williams (not sure how you fit both into  a four man midfield),Connolly(most unlucky striker I've ever seen for City), Maybury, and Tiatto.

As for Gillespie, my bet is CL releases him at the end of the season.

The rest either still have plenty to prove or are on there way out.

89963[/snapback]

Mccarthy and Dabizas to me have looked superb over the last few games.

Gillespie released? where do you get that logic from? Leveins playing him time and again and Keiths looking one of our most able and attack minded players, things in the team now tend to go through him and Hughes attacking-wise. Everyone seems to rate williams, we know the ability he has but hes very lazy, drifts in and out the games, I'd have steven Hughes in there ahead of him anyday, Hughes is a consistant player and has a few tricks up his sleeve, also doesnt sit deep at times like Williams.

90014[/snapback]

Gillespie will be released as he was signed on Premiership wages and CL will use the saved money on more players.

[alex]

I really don't think that this slovenian will come to much, but I am willing to be proved wrong

90559[/snapback]

Based on what?

[Ric Flair]

I agree Chandler. It seems the 3 teams that came down haven't been prepared to fight and grind out results like we did in 02/03. There are alot of horrible teams in this league that are punching above their weight and picking up wins. If you look at our squad compared to the teams in and around the play-offs it embarasses me where we are in the league.

We are and we have under-achieved this season and whether that's down to the management or the players i'm not sure. It happens with alot of teams that get relegated and that's why i'm eager to give Levein a chance. I like his ideas and even he knows we've not been good enough. The players and the club haven't been right for a long time, in the way they conduct themselves, etc.

On paper our squad looks handy, but they are a bunch of overpaid bottlers, who lack confidence and hunger to battle through this league. I like the way Levein wants young and hungry players, it's the ex-premiership players that have struggled to stamp their authority in this league and it doesn't surprise me. I like the look of Preston, they have got a group of players with a mixture of youth and experience and they all fight for the cause, something we desperately need to do. They have bought shrewdly from the lower leagues in Nugent, Sedgewick, Hill and a few others. That's why they are doing well, to succeed in this league it's not necessarily about quality players who've tasted success in the premiership. It's about younger players who know the score in this league and have no respect for anyone. It sounds horrible, but we've got to get ugly to get back where we belong.

What will be different this time if we do get up next season is that hopefully we'll have some longer term signings and we won't have to sign 10-15 players for the premiership. It would be nicer to spend the money we have on 4 or 5 premiership quality players and give us the best chance of staying up. All hypothetical of course and it seems a long way off, but there's hope.

This season has been nasty and Levein should use this as a learning curve and use it to fire up his players next season because the fans won't be as accommodating to them next season as we have been this season.

The future's looking brighter, but there's a long way to go and changes need to be made. I'm pleased we have a manager brave enough to re-build the club, but in this league there are horrible teams that won't show any respect to so called 'big guns' like ourselves and that's where we have shot ourselves in the foot.

Let's **** 'em up!!

[Vo Rogue]

With Williams, I get the impression that it is a mental attitude rather than question marks over his playing ability. I do not mean that he is lazy, far from, he does work hard for the team.  It is more his mental nature to take a game by the scruff of its neck and really compete.  If the team is playing well, he shines.  If the team is struggling, he will not be the one to dig in deep and drive the team on.

In saying all this, the top players have that mental drive, and it is that which makes them top players.  I get the impression that this is something Levein is looking to work on with Williams as he has stated that he sees Williams as a "box-to-box player".  If Levein can add this mental drive to Williams game, then we could have an exceptional player on our hands.

90047[/snapback]

Very difficult to change someones mentality to a great degree.As you correctly stated you have or you dont.Williams does not have that drive or burning ambition to dig deep that good players have.He is not a full package.

[davieG]

This was adebate Hoof and I had after the Ipswich game - Oct 19th.

QUOTE(davieg @ Oct 19 2004, 11:00 PM)

Williams - 4

*

QUOTE(hullfox @ Oct 20 2004, 12:30 AM)

That is quite possibly the worst bit of marking that I have ever seen.

The boy done good tonight.

*

QUOTE(davieg @ Oct 20 2004, 08:39 AM)

If that was good then heaven help us, I watched the guy intently for a twenty minute period when we were playing reasonalbl well and to me it looks like he's hiding he follows the ball around, always ensures he's standing right next to his marker when we've got the ball, never ever looks to take a pass, to slow to react when he gets the ball. I think I saw him make his first ever tackle tonight and actually come away with the ball. He may have pleanty off ball skills, he may put in the occaisional pass but Ive yet to be convinced that he's a professional footballer worth the £5000K aweek we are paying him.

I've seen some excellent midfielders in my time at Leicester Gibson, McKlintock and Roberts through Keith Weller and John Sammels to Lennon and Izzett and this guy, as yet is not fit to clean their boots.

If that is the worst marking you have seen then I'm happy because in my opinion that was a miserable, weak, lackadaisical and unworthy performance.

*

QUOTE(Hoof @ Oct 20 2004, 09:46 AM)

Totally disagree with that me old cocker. People need to realise that Williams isn't a grafter, he's a player who needs a grafter alongside him. Why can't people realise this? Alot of City fans can't accept if a player doesn't run round like a headless chicken and constantly get stuck in, reason why is because we've compensated for talent with graft over the years. Williams is the best passer of the ball we've had in ten years. Better than Izzet at passing, better than Lennon and Savage with the ball. Infact he's too good for Leicester, if you stuck him in a team who relied on passing as their style you would see how good he is. Players can still play well even if they don't run round like a headless chicken. Does Zidane, Joe Cole, Maradona ever get stuck in? Not really mate, not that Williams is as good as those but i'm fed up with people slagging Williams off because he's not a grafter. Your not a plumber davie but I wouldn't slate you for it.

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QUOTE(davieg @ Oct 20 2004, 12:22 PM)

I never said anywhere that he should be a grafter, Gibson and Weller were never grafters but they didn't hide. I've no doubt that Wiiliams has bags of skill and potential and that's what annoys me because if you watch him closely he hides and doesn't look for the ball, when he gets it he often looks surprised and reacts to slowly. Sure he can pass, sure he has some vision but he's got to look to boss the midfield, call the tunes and that doesn't mean running around like a headless chicken - that's what Tiatto does, yes I think Williams can be the best player in this team, that should make him man of match more often than not, but he got a 4 from me for wasting his undoubted talent.

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QUOTE(Hoof @ Oct 20 2004, 1:05 PM)

That's fair enough I suppose. I just think that considering the way we've been playing before last night with the long ball and it bypassing the midfield. We haven't seen the real Williams and last night we saw the performances he is capable of. You are right in the fact that he doesn't boss the midfield and I am unsure whether he ever will, I just think that if he continues to play like he did last night and perhaps improve each game then I think we've got a useful player in the team. If we start to play more fluently as a team and pass it about well then I think Williams will improve more and more. I know these if's and but's don't have any effect on Williams rating last night, but myself along with many other fans thought Williams had an excellent game last night.

Although he has improved under Levein, my view hasn't change he's still wasting his talent with 20 minute perfomances.

[Ric Flair]

This was adebate Hoof and I had after the Ipswich game - Oct 19th.

QUOTE(davieg @ Oct 19 2004, 11:00 PM)

Williams - 4

*

QUOTE(hullfox @ Oct 20 2004, 12:30 AM)

That is quite possibly the worst bit of marking that I have ever seen.

The boy done good tonight.

*

QUOTE(davieg @ Oct 20 2004, 08:39 AM)

If that was good then heaven help us, I watched the guy intently for a twenty minute period when we were playing reasonalbl well and to me it looks like he's hiding he follows the ball around, always ensures he's standing right next to his marker when we've got the ball, never ever looks to take a pass, to slow to react when he gets the ball. I think I saw him make his first ever tackle tonight and actually come away with the ball. He may have pleanty off ball skills, he may put in the occaisional pass but Ive yet to be convinced that he's a professional footballer worth the £5000K aweek we are paying him.

I've seen some excellent midfielders in my time at Leicester Gibson, McKlintock and Roberts through Keith Weller and John Sammels to Lennon and Izzett and this guy, as yet is not fit to clean their boots.

If that is the worst marking you have seen then I'm happy because in my opinion that was a miserable, weak, lackadaisical and unworthy performance.

*

QUOTE(Hoof @ Oct 20 2004, 09:46 AM)

Totally disagree with that me old cocker. People need to realise that Williams isn't a grafter, he's a player who needs a grafter alongside him. Why can't people realise this? Alot of City fans can't accept if a player doesn't run round like a headless chicken and constantly get stuck in, reason why is because we've compensated for talent with graft over the years. Williams is the best passer of the ball we've had in ten years. Better than Izzet at passing, better than Lennon and Savage with the ball. Infact he's too good for Leicester, if you stuck him in a team who relied on passing as their style you would see how good he is. Players can still play well even if they don't run round like a headless chicken. Does Zidane, Joe Cole, Maradona ever get stuck in? Not really mate, not that Williams is as good as those but i'm fed up with people slagging Williams off because he's not a grafter. Your not a plumber davie but I wouldn't slate you for it.

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QUOTE(davieg @ Oct 20 2004, 12:22 PM)

I never said anywhere that he should be a grafter, Gibson and Weller were never grafters but they didn't hide. I've no doubt that Wiiliams has bags of skill and potential and that's what annoys me because if you watch him closely he hides and doesn't look for the ball, when he gets it he often looks surprised and reacts to slowly. Sure he can pass, sure he has some vision but he's got to look to boss the midfield, call the tunes and that doesn't mean running around like a headless chicken - that's what Tiatto does, yes I think Williams can be the best player in this team, that should make him man of match more often than not, but he got a 4 from me for wasting his undoubted talent.

*

 

QUOTE(Hoof @ Oct 20 2004, 1:05 PM)

That's fair enough I suppose. I just think that considering the way we've been playing before last night with the long ball and it bypassing the midfield. We haven't seen the real Williams and last night we saw the performances he is capable of. You are right in the fact that he doesn't boss the midfield and I am unsure whether he ever will, I just think that if he continues to play like he did last night and perhaps improve each game then I think we've got a useful player in the team. If we start to play more fluently as a team and pass it about well then I think Williams will improve more and more. I know these if's and but's don't have any effect on Williams rating last night, but myself along with many other fans thought Williams had an excellent game last night.

Although he has improved under Levein, my view hasn't change he's still wasting his talent with 20 minute perfomances.

91202[/snapback]

Hahahaa I remember that debate. That was at a time when I seemed to be the only person who rated Williams (other than Ash who loves him). He certainly has improved under Levein and Levein himself has said he's impressed with how he's changing in to a more tenacious and dynamic midfielder. He still doesn't stamp his authority on a game for 90 minutes, but compared to Gudjonsson, Nalis and Gemmill he looks like Steven Gerrard.

Long way to go for him to become premiership class, but Levein doesn't like players who don't give 100% and he likes Williams so I don't think people can class him as lazy and lacking hunger to succeed.

[Fez of Mahrez]

How about we play like Barcelona? Stick with me We have two attacking midfielders who can't both play in a 4-4-2 really (for Hughes read Ronaldinho, for Williams read Deco.... oh and Connolly is Samuel Eto'o... ) Buy another holding midfielder, stick Tiatto and Gudjonsson in a defensive midfield position and some new bloke, possibly Kisnorbo, play Hughes and Williams in free roles behind Eto'o... I mean Connolly... and hey presto!

Would anyone like to buy some drugs off me? I don't appear to be making good use of these ones.

It'll be fine, Paddy can grow his hair like Puyol, we'll give Maybury a Brazilian (down there, like) and he'll think he's Belletti, we already have the shit goalkeeper with stupid hair. Break de Vries's leg and he can be Larsson. It's the future, I tell you.

[Ric Flair]

How about we play like Barcelona?  Stick with me  We have two attacking midfielders who can't both play in a 4-4-2 really (for Hughes read Ronaldinho, for Williams read Deco....    oh and Connolly is Samuel Eto'o...      ) Buy another holding midfielder, stick Tiatto and Gudjonsson in a defensive midfield position and some new bloke, possibly Kisnorbo, play Hughes and Williams in free roles behind Eto'o... I mean Connolly... and hey presto!

Would anyone like to buy some drugs off me? I don't appear to be making good use of these ones. 

It'll be fine, Paddy can grow his hair like Puyol, we'll give Maybury a Brazilian (down there, like) and he'll think he's Belletti, we already have the shit goalkeeper with stupid hair. Break de Vries's leg and he can be Larsson. It's the future, I tell you.

91211[/snapback]

Hahahahaaaaa!!!!! Sublime, best post of the year.

[Steven]

How about we play like Barcelona?  Stick with me  We have two attacking midfielders who can't both play in a 4-4-2 really (for Hughes read Ronaldinho, for Williams read Deco....    oh and Connolly is Samuel Eto'o...      ) Buy another holding midfielder, stick Tiatto and Gudjonsson in a defensive midfield position and some new bloke, possibly Kisnorbo, play Hughes and Williams in free roles behind Eto'o... I mean Connolly... and hey presto!

Would anyone like to buy some drugs off me? I don't appear to be making good use of these ones. 

It'll be fine, Paddy can grow his hair like Puyol, we'll give Maybury a Brazilian (down there, like) and he'll think he's Belletti, we already have the shit goalkeeper with stupid hair. Break de Vries's leg and he can be Larsson. It's the future, I tell you.

91211[/snapback]

[Guest]

But he's got a point!!