Millions back removal of dirty hippies with whom they are in complete agreement

[Guest ttfn]

Go back, re-read your post.

Then read mine.

Who has been indulging in petty insults?

I called them "sad" for wearing those childish masks.

Describing them as "ignorant" is accurate, as is borne out by the tripe I read on the Guardian website that they produced.

Anyway, regardless of what I've said, you still haven't engaged in the subject matter. Please do. I'm not trying to be a dick about this (as much as I may be succeeding in appearing to be one). I want to hear from the other side.

I work in the City. For better or worse, I engage with very few people who have anything positive to say about these guys, so please enlighten me.

P.S. To clarify, I'm not a banker!

[Guest ttfn]

And as for you not engaging in petty insults, your post implies everyone who's posting doesn't agree with you is an idiot... Or maybe I'm being too precious.

[Daggers]

And as for you not engaging in petty insults, your post implies everyone who's posting doesn't agree with you is an idiot... Or maybe I'm being too precious.

My posting has expressed no opinion either way and I'm not saying anything about my use of the word "wow" in case you find that highly offensive too.

[flowwolf]

It may be satire but they probably did smell having no washing facilities on site and apparently the club house left a lot to be desired. Perhaps next year they should try hauling caravans up the steps of st Paul's and bring their own set of port-a-loos. Or better still get a job and stop living of the rest of society like the parasites they are. make no mistake these " protesters" are professionals who can be found at all the top protest sites around the country . The only place you won't find them is at work.

[davieG]

I got the impression they were pissed off that the country was being run like professional football is run in this country.

So like the average football fan perhaps it was emotionally based on how isolated, ignored and used by multi corporations and governments of all persuasions that so many in this country feel.

Emotions are sometimes difficult to explain, ask your wife of girlfriend.

There's so much wrong in how this country is run when people carrying out essential services, caring for the old the sick are and trying to teach the next generation are considered virtually 2nd class citizens, where celebrity nonentities are doted on by the media as if they are worthy of the attention, where many politicians and those running businesses cheat and lie to accumulate wealth they could never reasonably spend, the disparities are end less.

Where the overly rich justify their greed by saying their richness will trickle down to the very poor only it never does, just like the creation of the PL was going to be best for our National team and therefore the smaller clubs.

Maybe not though maybe it was all just a wheeze to spend a few days in London, I really don't know why they were there but I know how I feel.

[Captain...]

I got the impression they were pissed off that the country was being run like professional football is run in this country.

So like the average football fan perhaps it was emotionally based on how isolated, ignored and used by multi corporations and governments of all persuasions that so many in this country feel.

Emotions are sometimes difficult to explain, ask your wife of girlfriend.

There's so much wrong in how this country is run when people carrying out essential services, caring for the old the sick are and trying to teach the next generation are considered virtually 2nd class citizens, where celebrity nonentities are doted on by the media as if they are worthy of the attention, where many politicians and those running businesses cheat and lie to accumulate wealth they could never reasonably spend, the disparities are end less.

Where the overly rich justify their greed by saying their richness will trickle down to the very poor only it never does, just like the creation of the PL was going to be best for our National team and therefore the smaller clubs.

Maybe not though maybe it was all just a wheeze to spend a few days in London, I really don't know why they were there but I know how I feel.

Amen to that comrade, although you forgot the bit about how we all lap it up as it is endless streamed directly into our brains via every possible media format, so that we are unable to even question it and we forget what life was like before it.

[Daggers]

Amen to that comrade, although you forgot the bit about how we all lap it up as it is endless streamed directly into our brains via every possible media format, so that we are unable to even question it and we forget what life was like before it.

It seems to be the only coherent argument people offer against it is the 'they have no plan, they don't know what they want'. Everything else just comes down to the groundless and pathetic 'they have no jobs, they are spongers, they have too many feet' nonsense.

There was a smashing article produced by a guy from the LSE last week, I may try to dig it out if I can be arsed, a out how movements for social change coalesce around events such as these.

My opinions about the events around the world were made quite plain in the initial thread about it on here or TB so I'm not going to bother repeating myself. What has become clear is that a larger body of people are mobilising, folks who'd felt disenfranchised by a corrupt and hopeless political system which now only exists to serve its own and the interests of its corporate and banking paymasters.

The camp may have been packed up, illegally for those officers removing people from the steps, but it isn't the end - this is just the beginning. You can't ban ideas, you can't stop a legion.

[leicsmac]

I got the impression they were pissed off that the country was being run like professional football is run in this country.

So like the average football fan perhaps it was emotionally based on how isolated, ignored and used by multi corporations and governments of all persuasions that so many in this country feel.

Emotions are sometimes difficult to explain, ask your wife of girlfriend.

There's so much wrong in how this country is run when people carrying out essential services, caring for the old the sick are and trying to teach the next generation are considered virtually 2nd class citizens, where celebrity nonentities are doted on by the media as if they are worthy of the attention, where many politicians and those running businesses cheat and lie to accumulate wealth they could never reasonably spend, the disparities are end less.

Where the overly rich justify their greed by saying their richness will trickle down to the very poor only it never does, just like the creation of the PL was going to be best for our National team and therefore the smaller clubs.

Maybe not though maybe it was all just a wheeze to spend a few days in London, I really don't know why they were there but I know how I feel.

This. Massively this.

[Zingari]

I hope you are right Daggers but I feel too many people are too apathetic to mobilise anymore , and i'd probably count myself amongst them now

[Daggers]

I hope you are right Daggers but I feel too many people are too apathetic to mobilise anymore , and i'd probably count myself amongst them now

Which is why we need workshy professional layabout hairy young people.

Them and the new denial of service software Anonymous are about to release.

[flowwolf]

It seems to be the only coherent argument people offer against it is the 'they have no plan, they don't know what they want'. Everything else just comes down to the groundless and pathetic 'they have no jobs, they are spongers, they have too many feet' nonsense.

There was a smashing article produced by a guy from the LSE last week, I may try to dig it out if I can be arsed, a out how movements for social change coalesce around events such as these.

My opinions about the events around the world were made quite plain in the initial thread about it on here or TB so I'm not going to bother repeating myself. What has become clear is that a larger body of people are mobilising, folks who'd felt disenfranchised by a corrupt and hopeless political system which now only exists to serve its own and the interests of its corporate and banking paymasters.

The camp may have been packed up, illegally for those officers removing people from the steps, but it isn't the end - this is just the beginning. You can't ban ideas, you can't stop a legion.

Don't know about too many feet but they certainly are jobless and spongers and that's not just conjecture. Doesn't anyone realise that the powers to be love these people ? They offer no real threat to the establishment and are so open to ridicule by the media because of their feckless life style .

Now if we had a determined set of real protesters that actually had jobs and used their holiday entitlement to protest that would really trouble the powerful. Imagine the conversations in whitehall " bloody hell we can't dismiss this lot they are all respectful citizens , what the hell are we going to do ? " I hate the corrupt banking system and the twisted capitalist workings as much as the rest of us , but a bunch of well meaning scared of work itinerants are not going to change a bloody thing.

[Daggers]

Don't know about too many feet but they certainly are jobless and spongers and that's not just conjecture.

Really?

[flowwolf]

Really?

Yes really.

[Daggers]

Yes really.

Not if you fail to substantiate it it isn't. It remains total conjecture.

[Guest ttfn]

It seems to be the only coherent argument people offer against it is the 'they have no plan, they don't know what they want'.

Is that not completely fundamental though?

[Daggers]

Is that not completely fundamental though?

Did you visit the site and enter into one of the many debates held there?

[flowwolf]

Not if you fail to substantiate it it isn't. It remains total conjecture.

But aren't you also guilty of failing to substantiate that they do have jobs? your conjecture is that they do have jobs is it ? Unless they all have very understanding capitalist boss's who allow them to take unlimited time of work to protest about capitalism I find it hard to believe that they do hold down a job. It therefore begs the question of exactly where do they get money to exist in our capitalist world. You don't have to be inspector Frost to work that out.

[Guest ttfn]

Did you visit the site and enter into one of the many debates held there?

Which site? You haven't specified one.

As I said, I'm keen to read something which might make me think about this differently.

[steveherbe]

It may be satire but they probably did smell having no washing facilities on site and apparently the club house left a lot to be desired. Perhaps next year they should try hauling caravans up the steps of st Paul's and bring their own set of port-a-loos. Or better still get a job and stop living of the rest of society like the parasites they are. make no mistake these " protesters" are professionals who can be found at all the top protest sites around the country . The only place you won't find them is at work.

Ha! Classic line, well done Wolfie,

[Daggers]

But aren't you also guilty of failing to substantiate that they do have jobs? your conjecture is that they do have jobs is it ? Unless they all have very understanding capitalist boss's who allow them to take unlimited time of work to protest about capitalism I find it hard to believe that they do hold down a job. It therefore begs the question of exactly where do they get money to exist in our capitalist world. You don't have to be inspector Frost to work that out.

You are confusing a number of points, firstly by assuming that the protest was entirely about being anti-capitalist, it wasn't. Had you gone to the camp and, as said above, attended one of the plethora of debates that would have become entirely evident.

Secondly, had you spoken to the protestors and asked them about their occupation and their occupations you may have discovered first hand that not everybody was in residence 24 hours a day because they also held down employment but tried to attend as often as possible to lend their support.

Next, you seem to believe that if you make a wholly unsubstantiated statement then it is the job of those who disagree with you to prove you wrong - it isn't. It simply launches you into the intellectual hinterland occupied by the likes of aacooling, ibbosuk and wherethefaxhat of being happy to base your life around what a mate told you down the pub.

I attended, I have a job. I met many people with jobs.

[Daggers]

Which site? You haven't specified one.

As I said, I'm keen to read something which might make me think about this differently.

The satirical piece was referring to the eviction from St. Pauls and I believe I mentioned the illegal eviction from the steps of St Pauls.

[Captain...]

I certainly agree with Daggers that this and the other protests around the world, along with the emergence of something like anonymous, are the start of something, but at the moment it is not clear what, but it is all rooted in one thing, people are not happy with the way their lives are being dictated to and controlled by the ruling elite, whether it is capitalism, bankers, governments, dictators, democracy. It is clear where the problem is, what is not clear is what the solution is.

I applaud you Daggers for going down to the camp, I attended some of the protests in Spain but where I was living at the time did not have a strong group and it was a bit of a damp squib, but the disaffection was there and it was in the youth.

What isn't there at the moment is leadership and focus, once that happens then the politicians will have to take notice.

[flowwolf]

You are confusing a number of points, firstly by assuming that the protest was entirely about being anti-capitalist, it wasn't. Had you gone to the camp and, as said above, attended one of the plethora of debates that would have become entirely evident.

Secondly, had you spoken to the protestors and asked them about their occupation and their occupations you may have discovered first hand that not everybody was in residence 24 hours a day because they also held down employment but tried to attend as often as possible to lend their support.

Next, you seem to believe that if you make a wholly unsubstantiated statement then it is the job of those who disagree with you to prove you wrong - it isn't. It simply launches you into the intellectual hinterland occupied by the likes of aacooling, ibbosuk and wherethefaxhat of being happy to base your life around what a mate told you down the pub.

I attended, I have a job. I met many people with jobs.

Well argued Daggers and top respect for attending. I'm just off to get that piece of humble pie. though i still think it was the wrong place and the wrong people protesting. Just love this kind of debate and it makes this site unmissable.

[Guest ttfn]

The satirical piece was referring to the eviction from St. Pauls and I believe I mentioned the illegal eviction from the steps of St Pauls.

Sorry, I thought you meant website. How embarrassing.

I have not spoken to any of the people at St.Paul's, no.

I have read plenty though. As I said in my original post, the Guardian gave these people a platform to post their views, and very little, beyond "we don't like what's happened to the economy" was either consistent or made sense.

[Daggers]

What isn't there at the moment is leadership and focus, once that happens then the politicians will have to take notice.

I firmly don't believe that this is the point or a requirement. In true anarchic fashion this doesn't need leaders because the entire process is about consciousness raising - whereas the riots were a way (in part) of releasing angst and frustration built up in certain sectors of society, the camps where a visual form that there isn't just davieG sitting all disaffected in his front room with a cup of tea. It's not just me feeling bitter and full of resentment towards a failing political and judicial system.

The camps offered the opportunity to exchange ideas, opinions and debate. The debates continued out into the wider communities - in the last fortnight the protest has extended to cover the imbecilic workfare program and Tesco's unpaid nightshift "jobs", not to mention the successful pressurising on the issue of bonus payments.

The quote I was hunting for was from Conor Gearty: "Minds are not changed by singular actions, no matter how singular. They are changed when society comes to regard those singular actions as the rule rather than the exception, when common sense shifts on to the side of the erstwhile heretic."

Obviously there will be the phase when the media simply focus with bias to sell images to what they perceive their audience wants to buy into - baseless opinions to be found in this thread for example. But then there comes the tipping point hinted at in the original post at the start of the thread, the point at which more people realise that they buy into a number of the ideas being vocalised by the protestors than the lies being dished out by politicians, Murdoch et al.

The tipping point when people start to buy into the notion that they have a part they can play in changing society for the better rather than simply going along with it and moaning in a What Grinds MY Gears thread.

The point of the camps, the point of Anonymous, the point of UK Uncut, the point of all of it is not to have leaders telling you what to think but to stimulate you to do so in the first place. To think, to question, to discover...to shift the balance of common sense.