Millions back removal of dirty hippies with whom they are in complete agreement

[Webbo]

I wonder what peoples' opinions would be if it was the EDL camping out at St Pauls?

[Captain...]

I firmly don't believe that this is the point or a requirement. In true anarchic fashion this doesn't need leaders because the entire process is about consciousness raising - whereas the riots were a way (in part) of releasing angst and frustration built up in certain sectors of society, the camps where a visual form that there isn't just davieG sitting all disaffected in his front room with a cup of tea. It's not just me feeling bitter and full of resentment towards a failing political and judicial system.

The camps offered the opportunity to exchange ideas, opinions and debate. The debates continued out into the wider communities - in the last fortnight the protest has extended to cover the imbecilic workfare program and Tesco's unpaid nightshift "jobs", not to mention the successful pressurising on the issue of bonus payments.

The quote I was hunting for was from Conor Gearty: "Minds are not changed by singular actions, no matter how singular. They are changed when society comes to regard those singular actions as the rule rather than the exception, when common sense shifts on to the side of the erstwhile heretic."

Obviously there will be the phase when the media simply focus with bias to sell images to what they perceive their audience wants to buy into - baseless opinions to be found in this thread for example. But then there comes the tipping point hinted at in the original post at the start of the thread, the point at which more people realise that they buy into a number of the ideas being vocalised by the protestors than the lies being dished out by politicians, Murdoch et al.

The tipping point when people start to buy into the notion that they have a part they can play in changing society for the better rather than simply going along with it and moaning in a What Grinds MY Gears thread.

The point of the camps, the point of Anonymous, the point of UK Uncut, the point of all of it is not to have leaders telling you what to think but to stimulate you to do so in the first place. To think, to question, to discover...to shift the balance of common sense.

A very well put point that I find it hard to fault, but I still think for anything to actually happen about it there needs to be clear goals, maybe not leaders but spokesmen and a way to make people understand what they are trying to achieve, because it is clear from this thread that even people that support them don't really know why they support them, and with this lack of clarity it is easy for them to be undermined by the media and the polluticians.

[Daggers]

I wonder what peoples' opinions would be if it was the EDL camping out at St Pauls?

In what way are a bunch of racist hate-mongers relevant?

[Daggers]

A very well put point that I find it hard to fault, but I still think for anything to actually happen about it there needs to be clear goals, maybe not leaders but spokesmen and a way to make people understand what they are trying to achieve, because it is clear from this thread that even people that support them don't really know why they support them, and with this lack of clarity it is easy for them to be undermined by the media and the polluticians.

I agree, if you are talking about things actually happening - but that comes after there has been a shift in norms, values and expectations.

That is then a job for whoever it is we want to start representing us because it certainly isn't the politicians we currently have.

[Webbo]

In what way are a bunch of racist hate-mongers relevant?

They're not being apathetic, they are mobilising , raising conciousness about something they feel strongly about, a lot of them have jobs. Your comment;

What has become clear is that a larger body of people are mobilising, folks who'd felt disenfranchised by a corrupt and hopeless political system which now only exists to serve its own and the interests of its corporate and banking paymasters.

is something I'm sure they would agree with.

If the police had evicted them from the steps of St Pauls would you have complained?

Don't get me wrong, I have no time for either group. I just find it strange that some people complain about apathy from one group and complain about the lack of it from another.

[Daggers]

They're not being apathetic, they are mobilising , raising conciousness about something they feel strongly about, a lot of them have jobs. Your comment;

is something I'm sure they would agree with.

If the police had evicted them from the steps of St Pauls would you have complained?

Don't get me wrong, I have no time for either group. I just find it strange that some people complain about apathy from one group and complain about the lack of it from another.

The EDL have never mobilised in order to raise consciousness, they have never carried out a non-confrontational and peaceful demonstration, they have never carried out a long term protest, they do not exist to make things better as an overall goal but to remove and restrict the rights of other members of society. They have never abided by requests from the authorities, they have never had support from large sections of society and they have never responded in a non-violent manner when being moved on by the police.

The EDL have never opened themselves up to dialogue and created an event whereby politicians, academics, researchers and philosophers have carried out seminars and open debate.

In short, your analogy is nonsense. I can't say I would or wouldn't support the police evicting EDL members because such a situation would (in my opinion) never exist for as long as women have tits.

How can you state that you have no time for either group when the Occupy movement contained members from every single section of society? Unless you buy into the Mail lie that they were all mindless hippy scroungers hellbent on the destruction of society...

[Finnegan]

How the **** is screaming anti Islamic rubbish comparable to protesting against global financial imbalance?

You may not agree with them (though I suspect that's largely because you have a false idea of what they want and don't want) but, I'm sorry, implying that they are in any way similar to the EDL is just being dense.

[Daggers]

How the **** is screaming anti Islamic rubbish comparable to protesting against global financial imbalance?

You may not agree with them (though I suspect that's largely because you have a false idea of what they want and don't want) but, I'm sorry, implying that they are in any way similar to the EDL is just being dense.

I was trying really hard to be polite, but...

THIS.

[Webbo]

I was trying really hard to be polite, but...

THIS.

No need to shout.

Nobody complains if you dislike the EDL, I think people should have the right to dislike this group as well.

Basically I was bored and felt like a bit of shit stirring.

[Daggers]

I think people should have the right to dislike this group as well.

How can you state that you have no time for (the) group when the Occupy movement contained members from every single section of society?

[Webbo]

Every section of society? What about the "good looking, middle aged decorator and part time moderator" section of society?

[Guest MattP]

The EDL have never mobilised in order to raise consciousness, they have never carried out a non-confrontational and peaceful demonstration.

Just thought I would pick you up on this, the EDL have had loads of peaceful protests, you just don't see any media coverage when nothing kicks off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Defence_League_demonstrations

Trouble only tends to occur (on both sides) when you get the UAF and various groups turning up to oppose it, though I don't doubt it's a pretty vile organisation full of thugs and with a pretty racist agenda hidden beneath it all.

It's a great shame you werent one of the ones who were at the Occupy Leicester camp when I went down and had a chat with them all, had they been able to express their opinions in the same coherant manner you do they could have reached out to a lot more people and make some sense, the ones I had the misfortune of speaking with were not bright, couldnt really explain what the were actually campaigning about and instead just spouted the usual ramblings about bankers. It did make me laugh when he said the only place that would let them use the toilets was McDonalds though.

[Finnegan]

Occupy Leicester was a moronic bunch of attention-seeking children with absolutely no understanding of their own politics, let alone the wider issue.

I was genuinely embarrassed for them.

[Guest MattP]

@MattP I don't think they would have made any further progress by being anti corporations instead of anti capitalist, they are more or less one in the same, capitalism encourages growth and rewards big companies taking over everything and destroying the smaller businesses.

They are not the same at all.

That's the worst aspect of Capitalism, just because you support capitalism that doesnt mean you support Tescos buying out local shops, I always buy from local business when I can and support all my local businesses if I can get what I need from them over a big corporation.

It's not perfect but I've not seen a better option yet, at least Capitalism gives people the opportunity to do something, you need big goals to aspire too, people should have the dream of becoming a rich man.

I believe every man is born equal and then has the opportunity to work as hard as he can to make himself unequal.

[Finnegan]

people should have the dream of becoming a rich man.

Probably the most evil thing you've ever actually said on here.

[Guest MattP]

Occupy Leicester was a moronic bunch of attention-seeking children with absolutely no understanding of their own politics, let alone the wider issue.

I was genuinely embarrassed for them.

The sad thing about it was they were nice pleasant people, you could see that. Problem was there was no guidance and they just oozed every stereotype assiociated with what the Mail etc likes to depict these groups as. The Palestine flag, the copy of the socialist worker, the speech about bankers, they had it all, in terms of public perception they may as well have painted a hammer and sickle on the side of the tents.

You don't want to be too hard on them as you need more young people getting into politics, it's bad enough nowadays just how apathetic 16-25 year olds are about the political system but these guys seriously needed some help.

[Guest MattP]

Probably the most evil thing you've ever actually said on here.

No it's not. I won't lie, I want to become a multi-millionaire, I want to travel the world again in style, I want a ten bedroom house with a games room, I want to fly business class wherever I go, I want the best restaurants and the best hotel rooms.

You only live once. Enjoy it.

[Finnegan]

The sad thing about it was they were nice pleasant people, you could see that. Problem was there was no guidance and they just oozed every stereotype assiociated with what the Mail etc likes to depict these groups as. The Palestine flag, the copy of the socialist worker, the speech about bankers, they had it all, in terms of public perception they may as well have painted a hammer and sickle on the side of the tents.

You don't want to be too hard on them as you need more young people getting into politics, it's bad enough nowadays just how apathetic 16-25 year olds are about the political system but these guys seriously needed some help.

The inability to organize and brand itself was (and still is) occupy's biggest failing, though.

The sad fact is that to open the eyes of the mass population and start to get people round to their way of thought, they're going to have to do battle with the hegemony of the populist media.

[Webbo]

No it's not. I won't lie, I want to become a multi-millionaire, I want to travel the world again in style, I want a ten bedroom house with a games room, I want to fly business class wherever I go, I want the best restaurants and the best hotel rooms.

You only live once. Enjoy it.

I think, that if we're being honest, that's what 99% of the population want, me included.

[Guest MattP]

The inability to organize and brand itself was (and still is) occupy's biggest failing, though.

The sad fact is that to open the eyes of the mass population and start to get people round to their way of thought, they're going to have to do battle with the hegemony of the populist media.

They need to get a dance troupe on Britain's Got Talent. That's the way to the top these days.

[Finnegan]

I think, that if we're being honest, that's what 99% of the population want, me included.

I don't really think that's true at all.

I don't want a ten bedroom house, what the **** would I do with all the space? I'm fine flying in the same 'class' as everyone else and food is food.

Don't get me wrong, I don't donate every spare penny to charitable causes, I do want a comfortable life and some nice things but I couldn't really live with the guilt of living it up la vida loca whilst the vast majority of the world's population live so vastly below my means.

Edit: In addition to the guilt, can I just clarify that those things just don't really impress or interest me either?

[Bellend Sebastian]

I dream of a fairer society.

Well I wish for a fairer society, anyway. I actually dream about getting a job in Loaf and then being asked to wear short trousers, and then all this being interrupted by Cardiff fans throwing stuff through the windows. Not a patch upon my Thatcher/Godzilla dream

[Webbo]

I don't really think that's true at all.

I don't want a ten bedroom house, what the **** would I do with all the space? I'm fine flying in the same 'class' as everyone else and food is food.

Don't get me wrong, I don't donate every spare penny to charitable causes, I do want a comfortable life and some nice things but I couldn't really live with the guilt of living it up la vida loca whilst the vast majority of the world's population live so vastly below my means.

Well I see all these places around the world and wish I could visit them, not just for a week but a month or 6 weeks. I'd like to build my own house with a swimming pool in the garden. I'd like to try the sort of food Gordon Ramsey cooks and see what the fuss is about. Does that make me a bad person?

[Guest MattP]

I don't really think that's true at all.

I don't want a ten bedroom house, what the **** would I do with all the space? I'm fine flying in the same 'class' as everyone else and food is food.

Don't get me wrong, I don't donate every spare penny to charitable causes, I do want a comfortable life and some nice things but I couldn't really live with the guilt of living it up la vida loca whilst the vast majority of the world's population live so vastly below my means.

Edit: In addition to the guilt, can I just clarify that those things just don't really impress or interest me either?

I was the same until I flew business class back from the US. I absolutely hate having to fly economy now. Food is Food? Come on.....you telling me you don't go to an expensive restaurant for special occasions sometimes?

Understand what you are saying but that's life and it always has been, it's all relative to what and where we have been brought up I suppose. I donate 10% of my wage to charity, maybe I do that to ease my own conscience.

[21st Century Fox]

It depends who you're climbing over to get these things.