21st Century Fox Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 Exactly, so it cannot be argued that they have become martyrs after being executed, it is only speculation that says that. Take Charles Manson as an example, he has remained in custody for the last 40 years and just look at how much exposure he has had in that time: http://en.wikipedia....maining_in_view He is probably the most famous Serial Killer in the world, and has had a number of high profile interviews and documentaries about him, and his profile is much higher than that of McVeigh, who may initially have gained a higher profile when he was sentenced to death but after being executed his influence disappeared, unlike Manson. And he's also trotted out every few years to show what a pathetic specimen he is... His profile was higher anyway due to crimes in Hollywood against the rich and famous...
Captain... Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 And he's also trotted out every few years to show what a pathetic specimen he is... His profile was higher anyway due to crimes in Hollywood against the rich and famous... But there is nothing to suggest executing someone would have any adverse consequences, in the case of AB, if he was permitted an interview in 10 years time, and lets not kid ourselves the press would spunk in their pants at the thought of it, it would bring him back to the public's attention and re-engage those that do see what he has done as something worthwhile. If he is executed now he will die as a lone nutter, with his reasons and motives largely buried with him, it would also be a huge statement that his actions were intolerable and can be no part of our society. I am a very liberal person in most cases, and I would normally disagree with death penalty very strongly, but what he did, and how he conditioned himself to do it is not human.
James. Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 If he managed to condition himself don't you think with appropriate therapy from psychiatric experts he could be "reconditioned"? Obviously neither you or me are properly qualified to answer that question but the point remains - how do you know he can't be fixed?
21st Century Fox Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 But there is nothing to suggest executing someone would have any adverse consequences, in the case of AB, if he was permitted an interview in 10 years time, and lets not kid ourselves the press would spunk in their pants at the thought of it, it would bring him back to the public's attention and re-engage those that do see what he has done as something worthwhile. If he is executed now he will die as a lone nutter, with his reasons and motives largely buried with him, it would also be a huge statement that his actions were intolerable and can be no part of our society. I am a very liberal person in most cases, and I would normally disagree with death penalty very strongly, but what he did, and how he conditioned himself to do it is not human. It may not be a bad thing for his motives and reasoning to be eventually explained. He may show remorse in decades to come. It could be cathartic for an entire nation. Again though the problem with the press is the problem with the press, it not a problem with a judicial system, it's a risk but you can't put someone to death because of an over-zealous media. Even he knows that executing him would be better for his cause than locking him away and letting him grow into a pathetic example for others.
Rincewind Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 Are we not all conditioned in some way to society? I think Man has had conditioning to live in a certain way ever since they lived in caves. Then religion came along and took the credit sometimes taking it to the extreme and in whichever direction the leaders could persuade their followers to take.
Captain... Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 If he managed to condition himself don't you think with appropriate therapy from psychiatric experts he could be "reconditioned"? Obviously neither you or me are properly qualified to answer that question but the point remains - how do you know he can't be fixed? But he conditioned himself through choice so he would be able to commit acts he would find appalling, he took a conscious decision to dehumanise himself, and any successful attempt to rehumanise him would still you leave with a human being with the thought process that lead him to believe that killing innocent people was an acceptable thing to do, and undertook a regime of dehumanisation to allow him to commit that.
Captain... Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 Are we not all conditioned in some way to society? I think Man has had conditioning to live in a certain way ever since they lived in caves. Then religion came along and took the credit sometimes taking it to the extreme and in whichever direction the leaders could persuade their followers to take. Well yes, and it was that societal conditioning which he broke, to perform an act of unimaginable horror. We are conditioned by our parents and by our society into following what is right and questioning what is wrong, by breaking that condition he has given up his right to be a part of our society. And 21st Century Fox every time he is wheeled out as a pathetic excuse of a human being people will still be reminded of the images we see now of him standing there defiant, cold and mocking, spreading his hate and fear, those that look at him and are impressed by what he has achieved will be reminded of that. I don't want him to be executed because of the media, I want him to be executed because of the atrocities he has committed, because he has chosen to give up his right to live in our society, and to call himself a human being.
Captain... Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 If he managed to condition himself don't you think with appropriate therapy from psychiatric experts he could be "reconditioned"? Obviously neither you or me are properly qualified to answer that question but the point remains - how do you know he can't be fixed? Actually this is what I want to happen, I want him to be broken, I want this façade this wall to be broken down, and I want him to understand and feel the guilt and the remorse, I want his actions to affect and him, and I want him to return to that human being that he was that he describes in the link above. When asked to show more empathy to victims' families he said he would break down if he removed the mental protection he had created for himself. That is what I want to happen, that would be my punishment for him, once broken he could rot in jail, but if he can't broken, then I would have him put down.
James. Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 Actually this is what I want to happen, I want him to be broken, I want this façade this wall to be broken down, and I want him to understand and feel the guilt and the remorse, I want his actions to affect and him, and I want him to return to that human being that he was that he describes in the link above. Furthermore from the psychiatrists point of view I imagine this would be a fascinating challenge and something they would be falling over themselves to have a crack at. Could lead to real progress in understanding the mind and potentially prevent tragedies like this happening in the future. I'm purely speculating as I have no idea what I'm talking about but it seems sensible.
Rincewind Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 The trouble with that there are a lot of people who would say it's inhuman to want him to suffer. I'm not sure myself but I'm sure I would shed no tears either way. He does not matter to me. I would not go out on a limb to help him. On condition there are many people conditioned through their culture which does not fit in with the general consensus of what a moral code is but they believe they are right because of generations of belief. Who are we to say they are wrong?I have my own moral codes and I don't see no reason to change them but to change like Brevnik did he must have been part way there already. He felt what he was going to do was wrong but also felt that the cause was valid enough for someone to do it so therefore made a 'sacrifice' of the human side of himself. The question is would he have to be sane to make a conscience decision to make himself 'insane' ?
Captain... Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 Furthermore from the psychiatrists point of view I imagine this would be a fascinating challenge and something they would be falling over themselves to have a crack at. Could lead to real progress in understanding the mind and potentially prevent tragedies like this happening in the future. I'm purely speculating as I have no idea what I'm talking about but it seems sensible. He did say he spent years conditioning himself, so it wouldn't be a quick process, although I am hoping it will be very much like a clockwork orange. The trouble with that there are a lot of people who would say it's inhuman to want him to suffer. I'm not sure myself but I'm sure I would shed no tears either way. He does not matter to me. I would not go out on a limb to help him. On condition there are many people conditioned through their culture which does not fit in with the general consensus of what a moral code is but they believe they are right because of generations of belief. Who are we to say they are wrong?I have my own moral codes and I don't see no reason to change them but to change like Brevnik did he must have been part way there already. He felt what he was going to do was wrong but also felt that the cause was valid enough for someone to do it so therefore made a 'sacrifice' of the human side of himself. The question is would he have to be sane to make a conscience decision to make himself 'insane' ? Depends on your definition of insanity, he was clearly culpable and made a conscious decision to become an inhumane monster, he can only be classed as human again if he can empathise with the victims, and understand what he has done. If he has sacrificed the human side of himself, then I see no problem in taking the physical shell that this non human now inhabits.
Rincewind Posted 27 April 2012 Posted 27 April 2012 He did say he spent years conditioning himself, so it wouldn't be a quick process, although I am hoping it will be very much like a clockwork orange. In Clockwork Orange didn't his mates become part of the establishment they were against because it allowed them to continue their vicious existence? Alex? was conditioned to the extreme of being pathetic so in that case I would class him no more human than he was before. Which maybe was the point of the film/book.
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