'Perpetual motion' drives electric cars forward

[davieG]

Full report - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18958025

Driving an electric Renault Fluence ZE around London's leafy Wimbledon is not merely a serene experience - it is also a sign of things to come.

Already, electric cars such as the Fluence ZE are charged mainly at night, which means their drivers are freed from the time-consuming burden of stopping for fuel.

But in future, electric-car drivers may not even have to plug their cars in.

Renault, together with Formula 1 car designer Delta Motorsport, have signed up to a trial of wireless charging technology that could offer drivers an alluring sensation - or rather illusion - of perpetual motion.

"We can effectively get a car with unlimited range," says Anthony Thomson, vice president of business development at Qalcomm, the company behind so-called inductive-charging technology.

The car's pad is wired to the car battery, which is automatically charged whenever the vehicle is parked or driven over a pad on the ground.The process involves the transfer of energy from an electrically wired pad on the ground to a matching pad under the car via an electromagnetic field.

[Guest]

I thought this had been around a while.

[Captain...]

I thought this had been around a while.

Wireless electricity as a concept has been around for a while, but I didn't know of any practical applications, a lot of energy companies were very worried about this because it would be impossible to regulate who uses what when it comes charging people (of course it always comes down to money).

[Guest]

Thought so, I saw the car application at least a year ago. It's used for charging mobile phones too isn't it?

[Libertine Dream]

Thought so, I saw the car application at least a year ago. It's used for charging mobile phones too isn't it?

Yea, a Palm mobile had it and the S3 has the capability but the wireless charging dock hasnt been released yet.

[Zingari]

I’m not really sure I can see the benefit of electric vehicles anymore.

Engine technology has come on really well in the last few years and with smaller more efficient motors the need seems to be disappearing.

The electricity to recharge the car batteries has to come from somewhere, and that is usually from burning fossil fuels, so there’s no real benefit environmentally either.

The only way I can see electric vehicles being any advantage is if they can be charged using solar power and that is probably too unreliable north of Seville.

[Big Dave]

There were some buses in Eurpoe that ran a trial a few years ago (not sure where, or if it progressed further). They had the charging pads fitted at every bus stop. Bus stops to pick up / drop off passengers, bus charges up. Can easily see if working for public transport, but it would take absolutely massive infrastructure changes to role this out to all vehicles. Maybe that is what is needed?

[Guest]

Though it would be far more logical for the power of their movement through the air to be reharnessed.

[Zingari]

Though it would be far more logical for the power of their movement through the air to be reharnessed.

Even more logical would be if they make the wheels at the rear a lot bigger than the front so that the vehicle would be always going downhill .

I think we're both writing like women now

[Captain...]

Even more logical would be if they make the wheels at the rear a lot bigger than the front so that the vehicle would be always going downhill .

I think we're both writing like women now

That is a brilliant idea, I'm still trying to work out if it would actually work.

[Guest]

I think we're both writing like women now

I like the cut of your jib, missus.

[Zingari]

That is a brilliant idea, I'm still trying to work out if it would actually work.

You're writing like a woman now Shraps i think it must be contagious.

[ADK]

That sounds like a really stupid idea.

I'm not sold on the idea of electric cars at all, we are miles away from making electric cars a more efficient proposition than petrol/diesel.

[Captain...]

That sounds like a really stupid idea.

I'm not sold on the idea of electric cars at all, we are miles away from making electric cars a more efficient proposition than petrol/diesel.

I know, I mean why even bother, lets just continue using petrol cars until all the petrol runs out then we can worry about an alternative, these people looking for more efficient and less environmentally damaging vehicles are just being silly and wasting their time.

[Trav Le Bleu]

I think we're both writing like women now

[Hollism]

I’m not really sure I can see the benefit of electric vehicles anymore.

Engine technology has come on really well in the last few years and with smaller more efficient motors the need seems to be disappearing.

The electricity to recharge the car batteries has to come from somewhere, and that is usually from burning fossil fuels, so there’s no real benefit environmentally either.

The only way I can see electric vehicles being any advantage is if they can be charged using solar power and that is probably too unreliable north of Seville.

Electricity is made using the energy in coal and we have a lot more coal than we have oil I guess?

I am a big fan of clean energy though and I think a lot more people should be driving electric cars.

[Captain...]

Electricity is made using the energy in coal and we have a lot more coal than we have oil I guess?

I am a big fan of clean energy though and I think a lot more people should be driving electric cars.

Or from nuclear power stations, incinerators, wind farms, hydroelectric plants, there are many ways we can produce electricity, and only one source of petrol for cars.

[Zingari]

Or from nuclear power stations, incinerators, wind farms, hydroelectric plants, there are many ways we can produce electricity, and only one source of petrol for cars.

Yes that's true , but the point I'm trying to make is that we need some other fuel to make electricity , and there will be a loss of energy in the process. There would be another loss when the electricity is converted to chemical energy stored in the batteries and another loss when it's converted back into electricity to drive the vehicle's motor.

Every time energy is converted from one type to another there is a substantial loss.

Yes the is only one source for petrol , but there may be other types of hydro carbon fuels that could be developed for the internal combustion engine .

[Guest]

there is no loss just change

[MooseBreath]

Don't forget the energy used in the construction and maintenance of the new facilities plus in the production of the cars themselves. The kind of infrastructure upgrades required to implement something like this contain so much embodied energy that the end result really needs to be a definite blockbuster for it to work. We won't get anywhere fast with these expensive incremental changes, we need a game changer.

[Webbo]

The problem with electric cars is that the batteries are so expensive and need changing every couple of years.

[Zingari]

there is no loss just change

So if I take a gallon of petrol and use it directly to drive a vehicle engine I will only get the same MPG as if I had used the engine to drive a generator which in turn charges a bank of batteries which in turn then drives an electric motor to drive the vehicle?

I don’t see how that’s possible; there must be a loss in the processes

[Captain...]

So if I take a gallon of petrol and use it directly to drive a vehicle engine I will only get the same MPG as if I had used the engine to drive a generator which in turn charges a bank of batteries which in turn then drives an electric motor to drive the vehicle?

I don’t see how that’s possible; there must be a loss in the processes

The point is no energy is lost in closed system, but it is changed into different types of energy, Kinetic, Heat, Friction etc I think it was semantics on FIF's part.

[Hollism]

So if I take a gallon of petrol and use it directly to drive a vehicle engine I will only get the same MPG as if I had used the engine to drive a generator which in turn charges a bank of batteries which in turn then drives an electric motor to drive the vehicle?

I don’t see how that’s possible; there must be a loss in the processes

He's technically right, but just trying to be clever. It's the conservation of energy law. The energy IS changed along the way into heat, sound, etc via friction, which is then 'lost' to the atmosphere.

So put it this way, there is a lower energy efficiency with Electric cars.

[Zingari]

The problem with electric cars is that the batteries are so expensive and need changing every couple of years.

yes that's true

i was considering buying an electric car , (either a reva g wizz or an aixam) because i've got solar panels on my roof and could have charged up the batteries for free during the daytime . but the cost of replacement batteries would have negated any savings