Chef - describes a visit to Leicester "as one of the most frightening experiences of my life".

[Guest]

These figures talk about recorded crime and the like.

Still you're not going to change your mind and I'm not going to change mine.

I'm sure people felt safer but they weren't.

[Zingari]

These figures talk about recorded crime and the like.

Still you're not going to change your mind and I'm not going to change mine.

I'm sure people felt safer but they weren't.

Are you suggesting that people are more likely to report crime now than previously?

If so, why do you think that ?

Given the improvements over the last 50 years in living standards , social welfare , education etc, crime really should have fell dramatically , so even if it is stable ( which i don't believe) that in itself is still a massive failure .

[purpleronnie]

Contsant reports/surveys about peoples perceptions of crime are always higher than the actual crime statistics. Even when crime levels drop peoples perceptions are always to say its worse...just the way it is.

[Guest]

Are you suggesting that people are more likely to report crime now than previously?

If so, why do you think that ?

Given the improvements over the last 50 years in living standards , social welfare , education etc, crime really should have fell dramatically , so even if it is stable ( which i don't believe) that in itself is still a massive failure .

I'm suggesting that we are more aware of crime now than ever before. The 24/7 news media report it so much more and therefore people think there's more of it.

Surely you don't really think that crime is related to living standards, social welfare and Education etc... I don't believe that you are that naive. Do you think that an uneducated society living in the amazon jungle is more likely to commit crime than we are? Do you think the multi-millionaires in the world don't commit crime?

[Smudge]

These figures talk about recorded crime and the like.

Still you're not going to change your mind and I'm not going to change mine.

I'm sure people felt safer but they weren't.

That's the trouble with people of your age, you're so set your ways

[flowwolf]

It was neither sensible or well thought out.

in fact it wasn't thought out at all. It was based on a non factual belief held by the poster.

And you are qualified to make such statements in which way ? Where have you done your research , have you actually spoken to that generation of people , in fact how old are you ? as usual you are dismissive without any thing to back you claims. You say it was neither safe nor better , well I can tell you for a fact no one before mass immigration were being murdered by being blown up on a bus or tube by religious fanatics. Your problem is you were born to late to know how much better this country was before mass immigration. you have been brain washed to disregard what the older generation will tell you if you would but ask them. I was born in 1952 so I know from personal experience what this country was like and it WAS a better place to live .

[Guest]

And you are qualified to make such statements in which way ? Where have you done your research , have you actually spoken to that generation of people , in fact how old are you ? as usual you are dismissive without any thing to back you claims. You say it was neither safe nor better , well I can tell you for a fact no one before mass immigration were being murdered by being blown up on a bus or tube by religious fanatics. Your problem is you were born to late to know how much better this country was before mass immigration. you have been brain washed to disregard what the older generation will tell you if you would but ask them. I was born in 1952 so I know from personal experience what this country was like and it WAS a better place to live .

I'm at least as qualified as you.

Mass immigration - ah you have your racist hat on , whereas the rest of us have been discussing this without any relation to mass immigration.

You are such a tool. England has been the centre of mass immigration for thousands of years. Angles, Saxons, Romans, Vikings, Normans. You don't think that you're a "pure" English do you ?

you have no idea how old I am. as I said you are a tool. I thought you were better than that but you are just another moose.

[flowwolf]

I'm at least as qualified as you.

Mass immigration - ah you have your racist hat on , whereas the rest of us have been discussing this without any relation to mass immigration.

You are such a tool. England has been the centre of mass immigration for thousands of years. Angles, Saxons, Romans, Vikings, Normans. You don't think that you're a "pure" English do you ?

you have no idea how old I am. as I said you are a tool. I thought you were better than that but you are just another moose.

I take it that you have nothing of value to say then ? Tool ? yes you are showing your age with that one. So you would not describe what has happened to this country over the past fifty years as " mass" immigration then ? not even the above mentioned Romans Vikings etc came here in these numbers. If you are going to quote history get the facts right first.

So because I completely disagree with your prognoses I become a racist. Are you a female by any chance ?

[Rincewind]

I was born in 1951 so I should have more predjudiced views than Flow but I don't. It isn't just this country that terrorism takes place or any civil unrest. The methods have become more sophisticated. I'm sure if the capability for some of the devices used now a few years back they would have been used. We do not get suicide bombers every day.

[flowwolf]

I was born in 1951 so I should have more knowledge than Flow but I don't. It isn't just this country that terrorism takes place or any civil unrest. The methods have become more sophisticated. I'm sure if the capability for some of the devices used now a few years back they would have been used. We do not get suicide bombers every day.

Where as we never had suicide bombers before.

[Zingari]

I'm suggesting that we are more aware of crime now than ever before. The 24/7 news media report it so much more and therefore people think there's more of it.

Surely you don't really think that crime is related to living standards, social welfare and Education etc... I don't believe that you are that naive. Do you think that an uneducated society living in the amazon jungle is more likely to commit crime than we are? Do you think the multi-millionaires in the world don't commit crime?

Yes that is a good point about the 24/7 Media making us more aware and maybe it's true that the fear of crime does indeed partly mask the reality , but I think this is only true to an extent .

Violent cime has generally been on the increase since the early 60's peaking about 10 years ago and dropping down some lately , but this is still to a very high rate in comparison .

I feel that improved social welfare etc should have lessened crime dramatically at least at a low level ( such as thefts , break-ins , burglaries street muggings etc) if only because this what the experts have drumming into us for so long.

Starving and desperate people will inevitably turn to crime , so taking away this desperation should have lessened this type of crime at least.

I agree white collar crime and crimes with psycholigical undertones would of course be unaffected by any improvements in wefare.

As for the comparison with Amazonian tribes etc , I'm not sure we could really make much of a judgement because they probably don't have laws to break in our sense and are judged merely by their peers in a sort simplistic "11th commandment" code of conduct.

The fabric in these type of societies is much more interwoven than ours and I believe that it has been the breaking down of this social fabric that is the cause of many modern ills .

We are treated much more as transient commodities to be moved around under market forces rather that humans who are inherently social animals.

We seem to be constantly treating symptoms rather than looking for causes .

[Rincewind]

I agree with Zing for once. Maybe jungle tribe crime is less because possessions are not a priority. Things are shared especially food and clothing and all have their roles to play when it comes to work. There is no complaining,

[absolutelegend]

let's all move to the jungle!

[flowwolf]

let's all move to the jungle!

There's really no need to move.

[Guest MattP]

Not according to this document murder rates per million of population have more doubled since 1960 which in absolute terms is even higher. Given all those facts, I'd say the place was safer.

You and FIF seem to think I'm referring to 40 years ago, I'm not. I'm talking about a time when I lived in Leicester(shire) which was from 1946 to 1962. I am also not correlating this to immigration either, just in case there's any further misunderstanding.

Thanks for that, it's amazing some of the shit that gets spouted as fact that' just completely untrue.

I'm at least as qualified as you.

Mass immigration - ah you have your racist hat on , whereas the rest of us have been discussing this without any relation to mass immigration.

You are such a tool. England has been the centre of mass immigration for thousands of years. Angles, Saxons, Romans, Vikings, Normans. You don't think that you're a "pure" English do you ?

you have no idea how old I am. as I said you are a tool. I thought you were better than that but you are just another moose.

and that's usually the admittal you have lost the argument......

[purpleronnie]

Thanks for that, it's amazing some of the shit that gets spouted as fact that' just completely untrue.

and that's usually the admittal you have lost the argument......

I guess it depends on which exact time people are referring too. But the figures show murder rates are similiar to 40 years ago and are lower than 30 years ago, I bet you any money those growing up back then will (if asked) state the murder rate is higher now and recent figures show that overall crime rate has dropped to its lowest for 20 years, and thats the point me and others were making the perceprion of crime is always worse than what the figures suggest,....thats been proven over and over again so i can only assume Matt and others are showing the same percieved innacuracies.

Interesting the figures shown dont include the last decade .

[flowwolf]

I guess it depends on which exact time people are referring too. But the figures show murder rates are similiar to 40 years ago and are lower than 30 years ago, I bet you any money those growing up back then will (if asked) state the murder rate is higher now and recent figures show that overall crime rate has dropped to its lowest for 20 years, and thats the point me and others were making the perceprion of crime is always worse than what the figures suggest,....thats been proven over and over again so i can only assume Matt and others are showing the same percieved innacuracies.

Interesting the figures shown dont include the last decade .

While I agree peoples perception of crime figures is always worse than it actually is there is no getting away from the crime statistics . Peoples perception of crime also relate to the area they live in that should be pretty obvious. What I don't understand is this blanket denial that this country is in a worse state crime wise than it has ever been. The crime figures already stated clearly show this to be true and as I said before ask people old enough to remember this country before we threw open a doors to unchecked immigration. I suppose someone is now going to say there is no connection between the two.

[purpleronnie]

While I agree peoples perception of crime figures is always worse than it actually is there is no getting away from the crime statistics . Peoples perception of crime also relate to the area they live in that should be pretty obvious. What I don't understand is this blanket denial that this country is in a worse state crime wise than it has ever been. The crime figures already stated clearly show this to be true and as I said before ask people old enough to remember this country before we threw open a doors to unchecked immigration. I suppose someone is now going to say there is no connection between the two.

But many crime figures are lower now than 20 years well before so called 'mass immigration'.

I dont think theres a blanket denial I'm sure some crime rates are higher now than say the 1960's - but that's the same the world over, I wish there was more balance to peoples arguements, its not as bad as people think....its actually been getting better.

[Guest MattP]

But many crime figures are lower now than 20 years well before so called 'mass immigration'.

I dont think theres a blanket denial I'm sure some crime rates are higher now than say the 1960's - but that's the same the world over, I wish there was more balance to peoples arguements, its not as bad as people think....its actually been getting better.

Mass Immingration didn't happen before 1992?

I agree people need to try and show balance but it's hard when you get ridiculous comments such as 'the murder rate is lower now than it was 40 years ago' in the thread.

[purpleronnie]

Mass Immingration didn't happen before 1992?

I agree people need to try and show balance but it's hard when you get ridiculous comments such as 'the murder rate is lower now than it was 40 years ago' in the thread.

I guess it depends on your definition of mass immigration, most will say that has happend in the last 20 years.

Would the murder rate is lower than it was 38 years ago be better?

because it is.

Murder rate has also declined massively in the last ten years and apart from a spike in the early 2000's (shipman) its remained pretty much the same for over 30 years...making England & wales amongst the lowest murder rates in the world....scotland has one of the highest. Maybe the chef should take a walk around glasgow, Leicester will seem like paradise.

Lucky us.

[Rincewind]

Scotland one of the highest? Not disputing it but the news don't seem to filter down to the Midlands. We only hear of those murders close to us. I'm sure there were as many years ago but some may have been recorded as accidental or suicide. Forensic and detection levlse rising increase the unsure to sure murders.

[Guest Col city fan]

To be fair the Asian part of every city is a shithole. I'm not old enough to know whether these places were like that before the Asians moved in or because they did.

You know this for a fact do you?

Have you been down the Melton Road or East Park Road during Diwali? Or indeed at any time?

What about the Northfields Estate? Mowmacre Hill? Parts of the Saff? Primarily White areas. You think these estates are any nicer than the 'Asian' areas of the City?

How about the St. Matthews Estate, voted last year as 'one of the ten most deprived areas in the Country'... Well that's primarily Somalian I believe?

You ain't being racist I don't reckon? Just a complete berk!

[flowwolf]

I guess it depends on your definition of mass immigration, most will say that has happend in the last 20 years.

Would the murder rate is lower than it was 38 years ago be better?

because it is.

Murder rate has also declined massively in the last ten years and apart from a spike in the early 2000's (shipman) its remained pretty much the same for over 30 years...making England & wales amongst the lowest murder rates in the world....scotland has one of the highest. Maybe the chef should take a walk around glasgow, Leicester will seem like paradise.

Lucky us.

Sorry ronnie but the facts have nothing to do with anyone's definition of mass immigration. Take a look at the history books and you will find that mass immigration started in the mid sixties and early seventies with the expulsion of the Asians from Uganda and Kenya. For some reason most of them once granted entry to this country headed for Leicester and colonised the Melton road area. The Leicester city council at the time even printed leaflets and posters asking the Asians not to come to Leicester because they had in the councils opinion filled their quota of immigrants. But I suspect this came out of a fear of civil unrest due to the large amounts arriving in such a short time.

Happily this fear amounted to little and the Asian culture is widely excepted in Leicester due to their diligence and hard work and for the main part their integration into British society. My wife and I went to the Diwali celebrations in Melton road and what a wonderful evening it was. People happy, enjoying themselves and very happy to see white people joining them in their celebrations, Full of colour with women wearing the traditional Sari and a fantastic firework display. I would recommend anyone to go down next year and take it all in.

That is the plus of immigration sadly there is a very big minus. Unfortunately there are others who have come to these shores with no intention of integrating and indeed pour scorn on our way of life, to the point of demanding we let them ignore our laws and have their own set of laws, even going so far as to put posters up in their areas telling the populous this area is now subject to our laws not the British law. Now if that does not make you angry or the very least uneasy then we are heading for big trouble in the future.

[purpleronnie]

Sorry ronnie but the facts have nothing to do with anyone's definition of mass immigration. Take a look at the history books and you will find that mass immigration started in the mid sixties and early seventies with the expulsion of the Asians from Uganda and Kenya. For some reason most of them once granted entry to this country headed for Leicester and colonised the Melton road area. The Leicester city council at the time even printed leaflets and posters asking the Asians not to come to Leicester because they had in the councils opinion filled their quota of immigrants. But I suspect this came out of a fear of civil unrest due to the large amounts arriving in such a short time.

Happily this fear amounted to little and the Asian culture is widely excepted in Leicester due to their diligence and hard work and for the main part their integration into British society. My wife and I went to the Diwali celebrations in Melton road and what a wonderful evening it was. People happy, enjoying themselves and very happy to see white people joining them in their celebrations, Full of colour with women wearing the traditional Sari and a fantastic firework display. I would recommend anyone to go down next year and take it all in.

That is the plus of immigration sadly there is a very big minus. Unfortunately there are others who have come to these shores with no intention of integrating and indeed pour scorn on our way of life, to the point of demanding we let them ignore our laws and have their own set of laws, even going so far as to put posters up in their areas telling the populous this area is now subject to our laws not the British law. Now if that does not make you angry or the very least uneasy then we are heading for big trouble in the future.

Like I said it depends on peoples views of mass immigration, I grew up in the 70's and 80's and although there were stories about immigration it was nowhere near the level you hear today, most who are anti immigration will state the situation has got much worse in the past decade or so.

I agree there will always be those who come to this country and isolate themsleves there also will be those who will try and get as much as they can from our benefit system but thanffully these people are in a minority. I think more should be done to help immigrants intergrate but its not easy, just look at those who emigrate from the UK...they tend to move to places that already have ex pats and seem to want the same lifestyle they had in this country just in a sunnier place, I think its human nature to do so. As for eastern europeans coming here many dont realise how few stay for very long up to 90% leave within 2 years.

But anyway...its a seperate point, I feel very safe in leicester I genuinely find it a nice city and friendly, I guess others don't.

[BoneDog]

But anyway...its a seperate point, I feel very safe in leicester I genuinely find it a nice city and friendly, I guess others don't.

I've never had any real trouble in the city centre as far as I can remember, although I only really go for football days. I did once get robbed when I was about 17 by a man in a BMW though. It was sort of my own fault for accepting his offer. He called me over to his motor in the town center and said he's got some bostin jewellery for sale. I leaned in the window and he showed me a massive gold link chain and wrapped it in some kitchen towel. Got him down to a tenner and did the exchange.

On the train on the way home I was thinking "Gonna look well gangster tonight. Probably get about ten ho's now". I took the kitchen towel out and unwrapped it to show off, and there was nothing there. The bastard had sleight of hand skills!

Another time I nearly got into a fist fight with this rasta I was talking to in that pub across the road from where you come out the underpass near the train station. He took offence to me saying the word 'pal' at the end of a sentence and took the fighting stance. Barmaid asked him to calm the f*&k down, said I was alright and he let me off. I would have just done the old upward toe-poke of the left kneecap into the thigh area and legged it anyway, so no bother.