It makes you wonder...

[shade]

ooh 1.5 million pounds of profit, that's why footballs a joke. losing money is the norm and a 1.5 million profit is something to be proud of? if you're adamant that footballs a business now, then it's the shîttest run business in the world!

[Bayfox]

My mate's supported west brom for 30 odd years and reckons the yo-yoing was some of the most exciting seasons he's had at the club. one year fighting relegation and the next fighting for promotion. If villa go down this year he reckons he'd prefer if they were in the championship as well because of the rivalry with the brum clubs. Playing teams like man utd, spurs and everton doesn't mean **** all to him.

I'm not saying i won't accept it. I loved l1 as it was real football and i've said even if we miss out on the play-offs it's better than than the 5 or so seasons we had before pearson mk1.

I'd take making a fist of the top flight followed by relegation and then another promotion push.

The little years beat the pleat years. But we live in a culture of instant everything and have a group of supporters who grew up on mon and have no real idea that we have a history before that. We were the yo-yo club once upon a time.

[MANFACE]

100 Million pounds per year really helps.....................

[MooseBreath]

I'm telling you it's too much. It's not sensible, it's too risky (especially for some of the players we have been shelling out for) and a lot (probably most of it) isn't their money so their opinion on whether it's too much isn't the be all and end all.

Oh, and we as fans are paying for it with increased prices. So yeh, it was too much, whether they think so or not.

I don't think our prices have gone up significantly more than anyone elses. The rest of your post is invalid. You have literally no idea what may or may not be considered sensible or risky in the context of the owner's business plans. They may have £500m available for this project and that spend may have been thoroughly analysed and fully justified by their best business brains and deemed as a sound investment. How you think that you know what a better business decision looks like, despite having absolutely no information on their finances and none of the research they would have done available to you, I really don't know.

[Kitchandro]

I don't think our prices have gone up significantly more than anyone elses. The rest of your post is invalid. You have literally no idea what may or may not be considered sensible or risky in the context of the owner's business plans. They may have £500m available for this project and that spend may have been thoroughly analysed and fully justified by their best business brains and deemed as a sound investment. How you think that you know what a better business decision looks like, despite having absolutely no information on their finances and none of the research they would have done available to you, I really don't know.

But that's not true, is it?

Have I got to be Top's accountant to suggest that their expenditure has been reckless or are we going to be adult about this?

All you're doing is blindly defending them for everything, and using the fact that I don't know everything about them as your only argument.

Our ticket prices have gone up significantly, enough for our crowds to drop despite better on field performance. Either way I'm not sure what it has to do with anyone else, our prices have gone up because we've spent a load of money on players who couldnt get us up last season.

We know it's loans, I'm not going to waste my time looking for quotes that have been said in the past to heavily suggest this, nor am I going to stalk Top to find proof, but we know it's loans, if we're being adult about this, and not stubborn.

So, considering it's loans, and the losses we've made, I'm telling you it was reckless. And they should have realised that. Regardless, I can't believe the club didn't have more lengthy discussions about transfers with Sven. It sounds like a terrible system.

Now, like it or not, if we don't go up we're going to have to deal with these repercussions. And that may make it harder for us to get promoted.

[AnotherShitSeason]

The sad fact is that any decent management team would have walked out this league when the money that's been put in.

Never wanted Sven here from the start. THE BIGGEST fraudster in world football.

Still drifting from job to job. Compo to compo. Absolute joke.

[MooseBreath]

But that's not true, is it?

Have I got to be Top's accountant to suggest that their expenditure has been reckless or are we going to be adult about this?

All you're doing is blindly defending them for everything, and using the fact that I don't know everything about them as your only argument.

If I gamble with £5 when i've only got £6 then I'm reckless. If I gamble with £5 when i've got £3,548,000 then it's not so reckless. You don't know how much money i've got, so when I gamble with £5 tomorrow, you can't tell me i'm being reckless. I don't know how to put it any more simply than that.

I'll concede tha Sven was certainly reckless with the money they gave him. They guy acted like an unhinged lunatic, but nothing could have prepared the owners for that. It was pretty much only Steve Claridge (and AnotherShitSeason) who had the foresight to see what was happening at the time.

[Jace]

Our finances would of looked much healthier if we had £90 million revenue, unfortunately the problem lies with the huge ammounts of money involved in the Premiership compared to the Championship

[fox in the sox]

Our finances would of looked much healthier if we had £90 million revenue, unfortunately the problem lies with the huge ammounts of money involved in the Premiership compared to the Championship

This is true but the club knew which league they were in when they spent all the money. Also West Brom and other clubs have managed to get out of the Championship without being reckless.

[Swiss_tony]

by your logic moosebreath since you aren't their accountant either, you can't say that it is not reckless either? so both of you are talking cr@p about something you can't possibly know.

my definition of reckless is, the ffp rules kicking in means we can't afford a loss like last year again or it's sanctions. that much is obvious.

[fox in the sox]

ooh 1.5 million pounds of profit, that's why footballs a joke. losing money is the norm and a 1.5 million profit is something to be proud of? if you're adamant that footballs a business now, then it's the shîttest run business in the world!

1.5 million is something to be proud of when you compare it to a 30 million loss!

[Kitchandro]

If I gamble with £5 when i've only got £6 then I'm reckless. If I gamble with £5 when i've got £3,548,000 then it's not so reckless. You don't know how much money i've got, so when I gamble with £5 tomorrow, you can't tell me i'm being reckless. I don't know how to put it any more simply than that.

I'll concede tha Sven was certainly reckless with the money they gave him. They guy acted like an unhinged lunatic, but nothing could have prepared the owners for that. It was pretty much only Steve Claridge (and AnotherShitSeason) who had the foresight to see what was happening at the time.

What are you talking about? Where they not aware that some managers do not do a good job? If they only saw us being successful and didn't consider us not getting promoted then they are stupid.

If they gave Sven all that money and just 'trusted' him then they are stupid. They are the owners of a football club, a business if you like. That is not a good way to run a business. They are not us fans, it's OK if we blindly followed Sven and couldn't forsee any problems, we are not in charge of the club or it's money.

But even if you blame Sven totally for wasting all the money, you have to blame the club for appointing him and trusting him with the money. They should have that forsight, they should be prepared for every eventuality. That is their job. If Steve Claridge forsaw it and they didn't, they have not been prepared.

At the end of the day all their plans have been banking on us going up. Hence why they pumped so much money into the squad through loans. Now, I'm not about to get all hysterical about them leaving and us going bust, that's not what I'm getting at. But we have made losses, and if we don't go up, the squad may have to suffer. Maybe the fans will have to suffer more (though if I heard correctly, they've actually made less revenue from ticket sales this year and have suggested they will try the getting more bums on seats approach, here's hoping).

I'm not having Sven being portrayed as some kind of club treasurer. He said he didn't have any involvement in the players fees or wages. Why would he be? Managers generally aren't. But the lack of communication about them is a very bad system and both parties have to take some blame for that. It was not Sven's money, so unless he was literally a thief and stole it from somwhere, it cannot possibly be just his fault.

Look, even just at a squad perspective their spending (or trust in Sven's spending if you want) it was reckless. Pearson was left with a poor squad with a lot of players on long term contracts who were difficult to offload. Now I'm not saying that Sven is to blame for our recent form before anyone starts accusing me of that, but if they are so desperate to get us up, that didn't help at all, no matter who took over the hot seat.

Personally, I don't believe for a second that they've still got the kind of money on them that you seem to think they have. But once FFP comes in, it won't matter a jot how much they have. All that will matter will be the size of our losses, which are significant right now. Why? Mainly because they trusted Sven with all that cash.

So, that was reckless.

[Jace]

Lets not forget if we had gained promotion then on our current outgoings and turnover our finances would be very simular. The owners took a gamble that they can afford and it didn't pay off but they want a Premiership football team and they know what it costs. They could of bought a Premiership club for £100+ million that would be relegated straight away and struggle to bounce back up but no they decided to buy a Championship club for a lot less money and invest confortably. If it had worked many would of said they had been very business savy but it didn't and this is football there are no guarantees

[fox in the sox]

What are you talking about? Where they not aware that some managers do not do a good job? If they only saw us being successful and didn't consider us not getting promoted then they are stupid.

If they gave Sven all that money and just 'trusted' him then they are stupid. They are the owners of a football club, a business if you like. That is not a good way to run a business. They are not us fans, it's OK if we blindly followed Sven and couldn't forsee any problems, we are not in charge of the club or it's money.

But even if you blame Sven totally for wasting all the money, you have to blame the club for appointing him and trusting him with the money. They should have that forsight, they should be prepared for every eventuality. That is their job. If Steve Claridge forsaw it and they didn't, they have not been prepared.

At the end of the day all their plans have been banking on us going up. Hence why they pumped so much money into the squad through loans. Now, I'm not about to get all hysterical about them leaving and us going bust, that's not what I'm getting at. But we have made losses, and if we don't go up, the squad may have to suffer. Maybe the fans will have to suffer more (though if I heard correctly, they've actually made less revenue from ticket sales this year and have suggested they will try the getting more bums on seats approach, here's hoping).

I'm not having Sven being portrayed as some kind of club treasurer. He said he didn't have any involvement in the players fees or wages. Why would he be? Managers generally aren't. But the lack of communication about them is a very bad system and both parties have to take some blame for that. It was not Sven's money, so unless he was literally a thief and stole it from somwhere, it cannot possibly be just his fault.

Look, even just at a squad perspective their spending (or trust in Sven's spending if you want) it was reckless. Pearson was left with a poor squad with a lot of players on long term contracts who were difficult to offload. Now I'm not saying that Sven is to blame for our recent form before anyone starts accusing me of that, but if they are so desperate to get us up, that didn't help at all, no matter who took over the hot seat.

Personally, I don't believe for a second that they've still got the kind of money on them that you seem to think they have. But once FFP comes in, it won't matter a jot how much they have. All that will matter will be the size of our losses, which are significant right now. Why? Mainly because they trusted Sven with all that cash.

So, that was reckless.

Correct!

[fox in the sox]

Lets not forget if we had gained promotion then on our current outgoings and turnover our finances would be very simular. The owners took a gamble that they can afford and it didn't pay off but they want a Premiership football team and they know what it costs. They could of bought a Premiership club for £100+ million that would be relegated straight away and struggle to bounce back up but no they decided to buy a Championship club for a lot less money and invest confortably. If it had worked many would of said they had been very business savy but it didn't and this is football there are no guarantees

If they want a Premiership team why have they not brought in a manager with a proven record of getting out of this division. Sven didn't have any experience at this level and Nigel (although I like him) has not got a team promoted from the Championship.

[MooseBreath]

If they gave Sven all that money and just 'trusted' him then they are stupid. They are the owners of a football club, a business if you like. That is not a good way to run a business. They are not us fans, it's OK if we blindly followed Sven and couldn't forsee any problems, we are not in charge of the club or it's money.

But even if you blame Sven totally for wasting all the money, you have to blame the club for appointing him and trusting him with the money. They should have that forsight, they should be prepared for every eventuality. That is their job.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. I think the owners should make money available, which they did, and then they should allow the manager to spend it how he wishes, which they did. I can't see any other way which doesn't involve owners (people who according to some "know nothing about football") meddling with transfer policy. It seems like one of those situations where the owners can't win. They let the supposed football expert make the decisions, they get criticised, they start signing players themselves, they would get berated.

As for "they should have had that forsight", I think you're asking a bit much. There's barely a single person in the world who has the ability to see into the future. Almost everyone makes the occasional mistake.

[Jace]

If they want a Premiership team why have they not brought in a manager with a proven record of getting out of this division. Sven didn't have any experience at this level and Nigel (although I like him) has not got a team promoted from the Championship.

I believe this is why they got rid of Sven so quick into last season because the plan of buying big wasn't working and they paniced thinking they were going to miss the oppertunity to bring O' Neill in. When they realised O' Neill wasn't interested the best plan B they could come up with was things were working with Pearson lets bring him back and try his approach.