Unions too greedy again

[Weller in Tights]

Alot more than the people he represents though. He could of got his workers a better deal here if he wasn't too greedy.

You're right, he does.

I personally believe he shouldn't earn more than anyone else that he represents but my politics are probably more left wing than McCluskeys!!!

I definitely don't think its right that owners can sit in their £120million yachts threatening to close down businesses and put thousands out of work if they don't get everything their own way.

Or maybe like Osborne you think we should return to the business values of Victorian Times, when mine owners made all the profits and workers were grateful for the appalingly paid jobs in appaling conditions.

I can't believe that the right wing posters on here are all company directors, so what is it that motivates your right wing bias? Is it the hope that you will be rich and so you want to keep the proletariat in its place???

[Weller in Tights]

How dare a man buy a yacht. Sickening. If he has a yacht everyone should have a yacht.

Fantastic, another play at sarcasm!!!!

But you missed the fact its a £120million yacht, is it possible we can all have one of them????

What? No!! Why it isn't possible for us all to have one?

What is the criteria for owning such a yacht??

Owning a company where you can get workers to do all the work that provides the profit- pay them f all- skim all the profit off for yourself.

And how many people do you think would be able to do that out of a population of 50 million?

10, 20 maybe 50.

Great distribution of income that is.

[Strokes]

You're right, he does.

I personally believe he shouldn't earn more than anyone else that he represents but my politics are probably more left wing than McCluskeys!!!

I definitely don't think its right that owners can sit in their £120million yachts threatening to close down businesses and put thousands out of work if they don't get everything their own way.

Or maybe like Osborne you think we should return to the business values of Victorian Times, when mine owners made all the profits and workers were grateful for the appalingly paid jobs in appaling conditions.

I can't believe that the right wing posters on here are all company directors, so what is it that motivates your right wing bias? Is it the hope that you will be rich and so you want to keep the proletariat in its place???

So you would force a company to remain open until everyone had nothing?

[sphericalfox]

Fantastic, that's really funny what you've done there!!! Well done

Have you woke up on the wrong side of the bed this moaning? 

[Strokes]

Fantastic, another play at sarcasm!!!!

But you missed the fact its a £120million yacht, is it possible we can all have one of them????

What? No!! Why it isn't possible for us all to have one?

What is the criteria for owning such a yacht??

Owning a company where you can get workers to do all the work that provides the profit- pay them f all- skim all the profit off for yourself.

And how many people do you think would be able to do that out of a population of 50 million?

10, 20 maybe 50.

Great distribution of income that is.

Why should income be evenly distributed? Where would the motivation to get to the top come from? We can't all collect bins for a living.

[Guest MattP]

Or maybe like Osborne you think we should return to the business values of Victorian Times, when mine owners made all the profits and workers were grateful for the appalingly paid jobs in appaling conditions.

I can't believe that the right wing posters on here are all company directors, so what is it that motivates your right wing bias?

Combination of things.

Competition brings higher standards, rich is a good word. Try to get rich, you'll enjoy life more. The more you distribute wealth the lazier people will become. People shouldn't be reliant on states.

The Grangemouth boss offered a rescue package to save jobs and the Unions turned him down despite the plant losing millions a month. Who is the real villain?

If your politics are seriously to the left of McCluskey then I'd just move to Cuba or North Korea, they'll have you.

[Weller in Tights]

So you would force a company to remain open until everyone had nothing?

??????

Where was that said by whom????

I would like to see the rich bastards take their cut like everyone else.

I have had a pay rise freeze for 4 years and I understand why, I haven't got a problem with that and I am grateful I have a job.

Yes my politics are very much left of centre, so it annoys me that a person that is a billionaire sits on his £120million yacht acting like god, deciding who can work and for how little.

[Weller in Tights]

[quote name="MattP" post="2754724" timestamp

If your politics are seriously to the left of McCluskey then I'd just move to Cuba or North Korea, they'll have you.

Fantastic, didn't take long for that one.

[Guest MattP]

Would you be happy for him to close Grangemouth down providing Len McCluskey is allowed to sink his yacht?

Let's make everyone poor. Equality rocks.

[ADK]

It seems a bit pointless trying to convert people like MattP to socialism.

[Weller in Tights]

Have you woke up on the wrong side of the bed this moaning?

Must admit, yes. Put my back out on Tuesday and still feeling crap!!!

Plus I hear the god that owns Grangemouth is happy that the unions have agreed to his plan.

(Which doesn't include selling his yacht to help pay for his workers wages!!!)

[Weller in Tights]

Why should income be evenly distributed? Where would the motivation to get to the top come from? We can't all collect bins for a living.

There will never be even distribution of income, people are naturally greedy.

Most left wing minded people do not call for even distribution of wealth.

What smacks as ridiculous is that some people earn millions for something when someone else earns minimum wage . The disparity is too great.

Why should Rooney or Simon Cowell earn what they do compared to say a nurse, what do they do that is so beneficial to us all compared to a nurse.?

Put in extra hours and earn a bit extra - no problem.

Show some enterprise and sell some stuff to earn extra cash - no problem.

Earn over £100,000 a year then be prepared to be taxed to f**k and be prepared to pay it and not try every loop hole to stash money elsewhere.

[Guest MattP]

It seems a bit pointless trying to convert people like MattP to socialism.

 

Too right, I'm far from perfect but I've got ambitions and aspirations.

[Guest MattP]

Why should Rooney or Simon Cowell earn what they do compared to say a nurse, what do they do that is so beneficial to us all compared to a nurse.?

 

It's called supply and demand, it's actually pretty basic economics.

 

You could train 99% of people to do what a Nurse does therefore you won't have to pay them that much, you couldn't get 0.01% to do what Rooney does therefore his services won't come cheap, 80,000 people in most big cities will shell out £40 for a moment of magic from Rooney.

 

If you don't understand that I really can't go on.

 

I'm off to the pub.

[Zingari]

Why should income be evenly distributed? Where would the motivation to get to the top come from? We can't all collect bins for a living.

I don't think very many we argue for an even distribution, but there must be a semblance of a fairer distribution .Of course we need the stimulus of advancement of individuals.

 

Why can't there be some ratio to pay? eg , if someone is being paid 100 times that of another worker in the same company , i'd like to see how this is justified , and so on throughout the varying scales . 

 

If for instance an electrician was paid double that of an engineer but half that of a pipe fitter  , most would be able to see the fault and would want to see how and why that state had occured. 

 

But the  attitude to management seems to be the constant excuse of , "if they are paid it they are worth it" , but it ain't necessarily so. 

 

it's quite amazing how collective bargaining for pay and conditions  is greed but individual bargaining is perceived as thoroughly righteous .

[Weller in Tights]

Would you be happy for him to close Grangemouth down providing Len McCluskey is allowed to sink his yacht?

Let's make everyone poor. Equality rocks.

You really do think through your arguments don't you.

Wow, a strange little world you live in, have you always formed your political beliefs from the 'comments' page of The Sun??

Fortunately we live in a democracy and I still believe that British people generally lean to the left if centre and so despite this current government, we will return to a government more left leaning.

I'll be honest anything left of your views would be pretty easy, but its a start.

[Guest MattP]

You really do think through your arguments don't you.

Wow, a strange little world you live in, have you always formed your political beliefs from the 'comments' page of The Sun??

Fortunately we live in a democracy and I still believe that British people generally lean to the left if centre and so despite this current government, we will return to a government more left leaning.

I'll be honest anything left of your views would be pretty easy, but its a start.

 

lol The Sun! The Mail! It must be!

 

I mean people voted for their droves for Kinnock and Foot didn't they, it's a good job you had Tony Blair to drag you to the centre so the left leaning public would vote you in?

 

Laughable stuff, I hope Miliband drags the party right into your area with Len McCluskey, see how well you go.

[Weller in Tights]

It's called supply and demand, it's actually pretty basic economics.

You could train 99% of people to do what a Nurse does therefore you won't have to pay them that much, you couldn't get 0.01% to do what Rooney does therefore his services won't come cheap, 80,000 people in most big cities will shell out £40 for a moment of magic from Rooney.

If you don't understand that I really can't go on.

I'm off to the pub.

Yes I understand supply and demand!!

I obviously disagree with it as a basis for payment though, can you not follow an argument ???

Thanks for the argument though, you give me encouragement to continue to argue the left wing cause.

Enjoy your pint, don't choke on it.

[Guest MattP]

Yes I understand supply and demand!!

I obviously disagree with it as a basis for payment though, can you not follow an argument ???

Thanks for the argument though, you give me encouragement to continue to argue the left wing cause.

Enjoy your pint, don't choke on it.

 

Tasteful.

 

Seriously come out of 1974, not every kids dream these days is to go and work down a mine for 16 hours a day, we've moved on.

[davieG]

There will never be even distribution of income, people are naturally greedy.

Most left wing minded people do not call for even distribution of wealth.

What smacks as ridiculous is that some people earn millions for something when someone else earns minimum wage . The disparity is too great.

Why should Rooney or Simon Cowell earn what they do compared to say a nurse, what do they do that is so beneficial to us all compared to a nurse.?

Put in extra hours and earn a bit extra - no problem.

Show some enterprise and sell some stuff to earn extra cash - no problem.

Earn over £100,000 a year then be prepared to be taxed to f**k and be prepared to pay it and not try every loop hole to stash money elsewhere.

 

I'm no right winger or left winger, I see myself as apolitical with respect to party politics but Rooney & Cowell earn what they earn because people that earn what nurses earn pay big sums to see the likes of Rooney or taking a massive interest in the likes of Cowell. Celebrities are only celebrities because so many people are 'interested' in them.

[Strokes]

I don't think very many we argue for an even distribution, but there must be a semblance of a fairer distribution .Of course we need the stimulus of advancement of individuals.

Why can't there be some ratio to pay? eg , if someone is being paid 100 times that of another worker in the same company , i'd like to see how this is justified , and so on throughout the varying scales .

If for instance an electrician was paid double that of an engineer but half that of a pipe fitter , most would be able to see the fault and would want to see how and why that state had occured.

But the attitude to management seems to be the constant excuse of , "if they are paid it they are worth it" , but it ain't necessarily so.

it's quite amazing how collective bargaining for pay and conditions is greed but individual bargaining is perceived as thoroughly righteous .

I understand what you are saying but as a concept it can't work. If you pay a checkout person £12 ph, a loaf of bread goes up to £2.50 and consequently £12 is the value of what it was previously. The best thing to do in my opinion, is shut up moaning and win the rat race.

[Zingari]

I understand what you are saying but as a concept it can't work. If you pay a checkout person £12 ph, a loaf of bread goes up to £2.50 and consequently £12 is the value of what it was previously. The best thing to do in my opinion, is shut up moaning and win the rat race.

Quite so , but if someone wants to win the "rat race" as you call it , then it implies that there really aren't any rules to abide by. 

Therefore there is no point complaining about the tactics unions use by collective bargaining  and hoping for a team victory in this rat race 

If there really is a free for all approach , then people will use the tactics at their disposal . 

 

Look to south east Asian or Latin american countries if you want to see how allowing capitalist control will screw the majority, and how they become mistreated. We are often told to look at communist states as bad examples of socialism , but conveniently look the other way when capitalists have too much power,

[Rincewind]

Yes I understand supply and demand!!

I obviously disagree with it as a basis for payment though, can you not follow an argument ???

Thanks for the argument though, you give me encouragement to continue to argue the left wing cause.

Enjoy your pint, don't choke on it.

As an aside Bobby and Jackie Charlton came from a family of footballers. Their uncle (?) jackie Milborne used to work down the pit as well as play football. The wages today are outragious. Why do they need 10k plus a week? There are many people like nurses working over 60 hours a week some of it unpaid. Others are working 2 or 3 jobs to try and manage. Then expected to pay £30 plus to see a football match.

[MooseBreath]

A slightly crude calculation but global GDP divided by global population works out to about £6,800 per person per year. Little over 50% of what you'd earn on minimum wage in this country. So well done, now everyone is poor.

What next? Find some way of valuing an appropriate level of reward for different occupations based on something other than supply and demand I suppose. Firemen risk their lives to save others. They should be paid the most. Business owners just do nothing and skim profits. They should be paid the least. Now everyone wants to be a fireman, but nobody wants to risk their own capital to start up a business. So we have lots of firemen but no businesses and therefore no other jobs. I'm not sure a society can function on firemen alone. We've removed the concept of risk vs reward so now we have no-one taking any risk. Who's building houses? Nobody. So now we have nowhere to live. Is anyone manufacturing cars? Of course not. Why would you? So now we have no cars. Is anyone going to risk building a power station? No. Ok now we have now electricity. This doesn't seem to be going very well so far, does it? Global GDP has reduced to pretty much zero, but at least we all have a more equal share, of nothing?

[Zingari]

A slightly crude calculation but global GDP divided by global population works out to about £6,800 per person per year. Little over 50% of what you'd earn on minimum wage in this country. So well done, now everyone is poor.

What next? Find some way of valuing an appropriate level of reward for different occupations based on something other than supply and demand I suppose. Firemen risk their lives to save others. They should be paid the most. Business owners just do nothing and skim profits. They should be paid the least. Now everyone wants to be a fireman, but nobody wants to risk their own capital to start up a business. So we have lots of firemen but no businesses and therefore no other jobs. I'm not sure a society can function on firemen alone. We've removed the concept of risk vs reward so now we have no-one taking any risk. Who's building houses? Nobody. So now we have nowhere to live. Is anyone manufacturing cars? Of course not. Why would you? So now we have no cars. Is anyone going to risk building a power station? No. Ok now we have now electricity. This doesn't seem to be going very well so far, does it? Global GDP has reduced to pretty much zero, but at least we all have a more equal share, of nothing?

Has anyone actually suggested that all the money in the world be divided up equally ?

 

I think most people easily undervalue the role of trades unions and collectivism . Most people assume that well paid people get the amount they deserve and earn it , this is very rarely the case . There is a much more subtle collective bargaining power at higher pay .levels 

Take the case of Fred Goodwin , I doubt if any would argue that he was worth every penny he was paid , and eventually was pushed out.

But look how he got pushed out to see the difference. Was he sacked and dismissed immediately without a penny more ? No, there is a system in place that protects him . Who was making sure he walked away with a nice little severance and pension . Who negotiated this and backed him and what pressure was put on the bank and gov to do this ?  Could he possibly have put any pressure on the bank to do this as an individual ? Not a chance  !

 

This image of individuals negotiating their worth and only the unions using collective tactics  is a complete myth .