Unions too greedy again

[absolutelegend]

I've read a lot of tosh on this message board over the years, but Weller In Tights, your defence of the Unions in this situation tops the lot.

 

....blah blah....but the boss has a big yacht....blah blah......if you don't like how the unions have represented their members then you read the sun / mail....blah blah....

 

no suggestion of any practical resolutions for the situation or heaven forbid, any slight criticism of Unite or their actions.

[Strokes]

Quite so , but if someone wants to win the "rat race" as you call it , then it implies that there really aren't any rules to abide by.

Therefore there is no point complaining about the tactics unions use by collective bargaining and hoping for a team victory in this rat race

If there really is a free for all approach , then people will use the tactics at their disposal .

Look to south east Asian or Latin american countries if you want to see how allowing capitalist control will screw the majority, and how they become mistreated. We are often told to look at communist states as bad examples of socialism , but conveniently look the other way when capitalists have too much power,

You are right, extreme examples of both don't work, which is why we are able to argue over the finer detailed balance. I'm just more in favour of what I see as hard work being rewarded, which is why I look to the right. Everything from my upbringing and backround suggests I should do otherwise, I'm still undecided on who to vote for in 2015 but I do know who it won't be.

[Trav Le Bleu]

A slightly crude calculation but global GDP divided by global population works out to about £6,800 per person per year. Little over 50% of what you'd earn on minimum wage in this country. So well done, now everyone is poor.

 

 

That's not actually true, because rich and poor are comparative terms. From a third world country many people would see that as, "great, everyone is rich!" - but they too would be wrong. Everyone having the same money would radically affect the prices of things, so it is a far more complex situation. One that is never going to happen, so not worth contemplating anyway.

 

And for all the people saying being rich = being happy... really?

[MooseBreath]

Has anyone actually suggested that all the money in the world be divided up equally ?

I think most people easily undervalue the role of trades unions and collectivism . Most people assume that well paid people get the amount they deserve and earn it , this is very rarely the case . There is a much more subtle collective bargaining power at higher pay .levels

Take the case of Fred Goodwin , I doubt if any would argue that he was worth every penny he was paid , and eventually was pushed out.

But look how he got pushed out to see the difference. Was he sacked and dismissed immediately without a penny more ? No, there is a system in place that protects him . Who was making sure he walked away with a nice little severance and pension . Who negotiated this and backed him and what pressure was put on the bank and gov to do this ? Could he possibly have put any pressure on the bank to do this as an individual ? Not a chance !

This image of individuals negotiating their worth and only the unions using collective tactics is a complete myth .

Nobody has suggested it directly, I was just using it to make the point that if nobody is rich then everyone is poor.

Fred Goodwin built RBS into the largest business on assets held in the entire world. I think he earned his right to be treated with respect when it went wrong. Just like ordinary workers have redundancy rights.

The system we have now isn't perfect by any means but it is far better than any alternative I've ever heard about.

[Rincewind]

If wealth was shared out in a short while the same 5% would end up with 95% of it.

[MooseBreath]

If wealth was shared out in a short while the same 5% would end up with 95% of it.

Yes those with the capacity for high levels of production would soon find themselves with more money than those who sat around the pub all day. Is that wrong?

[Smudge]

Looks like its over

[absolutelegend]

Yes those with the capacity for high levels of production would soon find themselves with more money than those who sat around the pub all day. Is that wrong?

but then you could take a lot of that money back from the most productive, and give it to the guys still sitting in the pub, as it isn't fair that they don't have as much

[Zingari]

You are right, extreme examples of both don't work, which is why we are able to argue over the finer detailed balance. I'm just more in favour of what I see as hard work being rewarded, which is why I look to the right. Everything from my upbringing and backround suggests I should do otherwise, I'm still undecided on who to vote for in 2015 but I do know who it won't be.

I think you've hit the nail there , neither is good or bad , it's in the detail and compromise etc. 

I suppose it's a bit like steering a ship in treachorous waters . 

Eternal vigilance is required , not too fast or slow , not too far right or left .

 

Both sides need to realise it's a symbiotic relationship.  

Maybe it's the floating voters such as yourself rather than the dyed in the wool ideologists that keep this country on a fairly sane path. 

[Smudge]

 

I think you've hit the nail there , neither is good or bad , it's in the detail and compromise etc. 

I suppose it's a bit like steering a ship in treachorous waters . 

Eternal vigilance is required , not too fast or slow , not too far right or left .

 

Both sides need to realise it's a symbiotic relationship.  

Maybe it's the floating voters such as yourself rather than the dyed in the wool ideologists that keep this country on a fairly sane path. 

 

Being symbiotic isn't a human trait in the main, greed is.

[Zingari]

Being symbiotic isn't a human trait in the main, greed is.

i think you'll find our bodies ( inside and out )  are covered in symbiotic organisms , We couldn't survive without them .

 

But not only at a biological level . Humans are very symbiotic at a social level too. Very few ( actually none) could survive on greed alone  and rely on others to make life for us possible .

 

Do you really believe we don't have a symbiotic trait ?I think it's obvious we do and the evidence is all around .

[Smudge]

i think you'll find our bodies ( inside and out )  are covered in symbiotic organisms , We couldn't survive without them .

I know but in the sense that you put in that we all need to get along, we are not. This forum is a prime example, the Houses of Parliament another.

[Smudge]

I'm not saying we survive on greed alone

[Zingari]

I'm not saying we survive on greed alone

i know and i'm not saying we live on altruism alone , society is  symbiotic , and that means getting greed and altruism in a good balance.

 

Did your mum never read Goldilocks to you as a kid ? Things in life need a healthy balance   

[Rincewind]

I'm not saying we survive on greed alone

Self preservation

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Greedy stupid union had to back down, or they would have cost some 800 people their jobs. What makes them think they should be exempt, while the rest have to put up with it.

 

Bloody Labour created the mess, so let's hope they get stuffed in the next election, or we will be in an even bigger one.

[Weller in Tights]

Greedy stupid union had to back down, or they would have cost some 800 people their jobs. What makes them think they should be exempt, while the rest have to put up with it.

Bloody Labour created the mess, so let's hope they get stuffed in the next election, or we will be in an even bigger one.

Shock horror!!!

Dangerous Tiger is Right Wing!!!

Who would've guessed???

[Webbo]

Well all you union bashers, happy now???

The workers at Grangemouth have made wage and pension sacrifices to save their jobs.

Where was their boss during these negotiations??? Billionaire Jim Ratcliffe was sitting on his £130 million yacht. Do you think maybe he has cut his income by a similar relative amount??? Has he F**k!!!!

Please remind me (as I don't read the Daily Mail I clearly don't understand the fundamentals of big business). What is it that he does that allows him to be a billionaire and allows him to pay the people who do the work for him to earn F**k all.

Oh yeah, he's 'the boss' he can do what he F*****g likes.

I would say when the revolution comes he will be first against the wall, however I am realistic enough to realise it will never come as most people are naturally greedy, all you Daily Mail and Sun readers see people win X factor or the lottery and think 'wow that's great' or you look at rich bastards like Osborne and have respect for his money (he has no morals or intellect to be respected).

I do despair that on the whole we are a morally bankrupt country. Just occasionally someone shows the social morals that allow for others to benefit instead of themselves, I suppose that is what gives me hope that we are not all right wing Thatcherite greedy bastards.

For a start some of the blokes there earn £50k+ which is hardly f**k all. Secondly the business was losing £10 million a month, why would anyone run a business to lose money?

So the owner is a billionaire (says you, I don't know if he is or not) so what?

[Zingari]

For a start some of the blokes there earn £50k+ which is hardly f**k all. Secondly the business was losing £10 million a month, why would anyone run a business to lose money?

So the owner is a billionaire (says you, I don't know if he is or not) so what?

That's what they say , but is it true . 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/grangemouth-bailout-ineos-screw-taxpayer-2528931

[Webbo]

That's what they say , but is it true . 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/grangemouth-bailout-ineos-screw-taxpayer-2528931

An accountant paid by Unite reported in the Scottish Daily Mirror. It's hard to know who's telling the truth but if it was making healthy profits why would the company shut it down?

[Zingari]

An accountant paid by Unite reported in the Scottish Daily Mirror. It's hard to know who's telling the truth but if it was making healthy profits why would the company shut it down?

why not ask why the taxpayer is bailing it out if it's losing money ?

Why isn't the billionaire owner using his own money.?

If you were losing money in your business would the gov give you huge grants or would they expect you to dip into your savings to tide you over a bad period ?

[Webbo]

The govt can say no.

[MPH]

I don't have one issue with someone being a billionaire just as long as as they are spending some of the money at least..

Firstly a company has been created providing jobs and secondly he owns expensive things that were created in factories that paid for other peoples salaries so they could then go out and buy things that other people made that then pays for their salary and guess what they will do with their money?

there are infrastructures and buisnesss sectors that have been utterly modernised by new technology brought about by peoples desire to make a bucket load of money

take away that desire and where would the human race be now?

[Zingari]

The govt can say no.

Of course it can , but why doesn't it ?

Why are they propping up a supposedly ailing privately owned company with our money?What are we the taxpayer going to get back in return ?How come the owner has got so rich if he owns a flagging company ? I think these are reasonable questions to ask and there very well may be good answers .

Wouldn't you be outraged if the govt. was giving money to prop up public owned industry.if the managers were making themselves extremely wealthy at the same time?

[The God Emperor]

Of course it can , but why doesn't it ?

Why are they propping up a supposedly ailing privately owned company with our money?What are we the taxpayer going to get back in return ?How come the owner has got so rich if he owns a flagging company ? I think these are reasonable questions to ask and there very well may be good answers .

Wouldn't you be outraged if the govt. was giving money to prop up public owned industry.if the managers were making themselves extremely wealthy at the same time?

this is what happens when the government is given the power to grant favours. they give those favours to those with the money to pay for them and say its "protecting british industry and jobs", when all it does in the end is protect Joe public from better value for products and services.