dmayne7 Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 But none of these facts make you a competent Premier League player, do they? In fairness, I've given you quite a few facts. That we average more points when we start without him in the side; that our form had collapsed for three seasons running with him in the team, that he's not in a second tier side's first team, that we've just gone on a record-breaking run without him in the line-up... And yes, my opinion is that he was poor during all three of those previous collapses, that he hasn't delivered on his early promise as a player and that it's unlikely, at 25, that a player will suddenly rediscover his finest form (and let's not compare a player who has featured in four of five campaigns at this level, with Jamie Vardy - who hadn't featured in a single one by the time he turned 25.) He's not a poor player, not at this level, but it would appear unlikely that he will go from being a second choice Championship player who has been instrumental in his side's critical collapses in form for three seasons running, to being a major player at a higher level. Of course I hope I'm wrong, but fans of sides that have gone up, only to see their heroes turn to mush in the top flight would be sadly shaking their heads if they saw some of the arguments on here. There are exceptions to the rule, true, but it is very, very rare for a player who struggles to establish himself in a promotion-winning side to go on and be a regular in a successful Premiership team, especially when he's not a youngster anymore and has been struggling to progress for many years. As Leicester fans maybe we were spoilt by going up with Izzet, Parker and Lennon in midfield, Walsh at the back, Claridge and Heskey up front - all players who would make the grade at a higher level. But just a couple of years before that we'd also gone up with Oldfield, Philpott, Thompson, Agnew, Blake and Gibson in our midfield. So we should really know better than to think that our fringe players will suddenly take the top flight by storm. Okay, well the meaningful facts we can agree on are: + He is held in high esteem by his peers (PFA team of the year) + He has been deemed a valuable member of the squad under every manager he has played for + He has been courted by Premier League teams + In his 5 full seasons we have achieved our minimum objective 3 times (Playoffs and Promotion) - He hasn't been in the starting XI for our greatest ever winning run. - We've fallen short of expectations in 2, possibly 3 of the seasons he has been in the team (Missing out on the playoffs) - He's still never played in the Premier League. Why can't we compare him to Vardy? The point I was making is that Vardy jumped up several levels, looked out of his depth, then thrived on the challenge and improved massively despite being 27. You won't see that level of improvement from King but what's to say he can't improve from playing against better players. I don't know how much sport you've played but everybody I know (including myself) who have gone on a pushed themselves at a higher level, amateur or professional, have improved massively as a result. How was he instrumental in our decline?! I didn't see him scoring own goals, getting sent off, giving away penalties or playing absolutely shite. He was a part of a team that failed; that's the fact. You're missing the point, yet again. I have not once suggested that he is going to 'take the top flight by storm'. I merely alluded to the fact that he could be capable of playing in the division above. Whatever your opinion on him there's no denying that he's one of the biggest scapegoat's on here. Having watched that Watford goal again, its laughable that you blame him for it and it just shows that some people love to blame him for everything. The fact you've suggested that he was hugely responsible for our run last season says everything. Even if he was as bad as you say, its still other players responsibility to try and gel with him and help the team to function. He's hardly a burden in games though. Actually, no you're right; It's all Andy King's fault we've not got back into the Premier League and got relegated to the 3rd tier for the first time in our history
dmayne7 Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Why focus on just one argument? I've made others, as have others. Try to look at the bigger picture rather than become fixated on one point. Yes, you didn't agree and said so in no uncertain terms! But the debate has moved on. To be honest, none of what you've said has made me think any differently. It's like you almost feel compelled to defend the player at all costs? Is that the case? Conversely, you have such a strong and clear opinion on him, why do you make it your objective to criticise him in every thread about the guy? Maybe that's why people feel the need to defend a good player and servant to the club.
Guest Col city fan Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Conversely, you have such a strong and clear opinion on him, why do you make it your objective to criticise him in every thread about the guy? Maybe that's why people feel the need to defend a good player and servant to the club. You're simply not reading. Again, because it makes you feel better I reckon. Read thru the thread and get back to me.
WinslowFox Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Getting back to the OP I can't see him leaving, I think he would want a chance at playing Premier League football so I think he would happy to be part of the squad and I for one am happy for him to be here, he's a very adequate replacement for DD or James, would probably walk into most of the sides in this division and a few in the Premier, which is frightening to think he is only a bit part player for us.
inckley fox Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Getting back to the OP I can't see him leaving, I think he would want a chance at playing Premier League football so I think he would happy to be part of the squad and I for one am happy for him to be here, he's a very adequate replacement for DD or James, would probably walk into most of the sides in this division and a few in the Premier, which is frightening to think he is only a bit part player for us. You seriously believe King would 'walk into' a few sides in the Premiership? I do hope our fans aren't beginning to underestimate the top flight already. Because if we do get promoted, and this is the opinion we have of football at the highest level, it won't be long before people are calling for the manager's head when we find ourself in the sort of dogfight that Cardiff, Hull and Palace have been embroiled in.
Guest Col city fan Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 You seriously believe King would 'walk into' a few sides in the Premiership? I do hope our fans aren't beginning to underestimate the top flight already. Because if we do get promoted, and this is the opinion we have of football at the highest level, it won't be long before people are calling for the manager's head when we find ourself in the sort of dogfight that Cardiff, Hull and Palace have been embroiled in. Cardiff for sure. Many wanted Ole Gunnar here but as far as I can see he's making a right old fook up at Cardiff. Hull have strengthened brilliantly (the two up top have been great signings). Palace just have a very solid manager. They've all strengthened.. Cardiff have just bought wrongly.
WinslowFox Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 You seriously believe King would 'walk into' a few sides in the Premiership? I do hope our fans aren't beginning to underestimate the top flight already. Because if we do get promoted, and this is the opinion we have of football at the highest level, it won't be long before people are calling for the manager's head when we find ourself in the sort of dogfight that Cardiff, Hull and Palace have been embroiled in. I could see him getting in at teams like Fulham, Cardiff, Villa, Crystal Palace, Norwich possibly even West Ham and Stoke. I'm under no illusion that if we do go up, which I'm still erring on the side of caution on that one, just how hard it will be.
ARTY_FOX Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 The fact is we wont know how he'll fair in the prem until we get there and he's playing prem football week in week out, some people on here are quick to dismiss him because he's still with us and not currently starting, yet most people think Drinkwater and James are prem quality. A lot of people are quick to say he's prem quality as well but we just don't know. It'll be intresting to see but i do hope he gets his chance and takes it! What do welsh fans think of him? assuming he still gets in there 11
inckley fox Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Firstly, if those are the 'meaningful facts' that we can agree on, then does that suggest that you disagree with the fact that we've done better in games that he hasn't started than in the ones that he has? Because that is a fact. And it's also a fact that we have collapsed at some point between December and February in each of the three previous campaigns, whereas this time - up to now - we haven't; in fact we've gone on to our most successful run ever and done it almost entirely without King in the side. As for the rest- + He is held in high esteem by his peers (PFA team of the year) 'Was' held in high esteem. That was three years ago. + He has been deemed a valuable member of the squad under every manager he has played for And subsequently dropped by every manager he has played for. None of which, apart from Pearson in League One, achieved their stated objective of promotion to the Premier League. Why can't we compare him to Vardy? The point I was making is that Vardy jumped up several levels, looked out of his depth, then thrived on the challenge and improved massively despite being 27. You won't see that level of improvement from King but what's to say he can't improve from playing against better players. I don't know how much sport you've played but everybody I know (including myself) who have gone on a pushed themselves at a higher level, amateur or professional, have improved massively as a result. At 24 and 25 Vardy was improving massively, having just had by far his best season at non-league level. At 25 King has failed to live up to the promise shown as a younger, developing player between 2008 and 2011. For the first time in years he has been dropped from the side for a prolonged period, which also happens to have coincided with our best run of form ever. Vardy, on the other hand, continues to improve as a player - it's part of an on-going development, rather than one which stalled three years ago. King is struggling to make our team having played for five years at this level. Vardy, after one, is a key part of it. So if we DO compare them, it hardly supports your argument. Whatever your opinion on him there's no denying that he's one of the biggest scapegoat's on here. Having watched that Watford goal again, its laughable that you blame him for it and it just shows that some people love to blame him for everything. The fact you've suggested that he was hugely responsible for our run last season says everything. Even if he was as bad as you say, its still other players responsibility to try and gel with him and help the team to function. He's hardly a burden in games though. Actually, no you're right; It's all Andy King's fault we've not got back into the Premier League and got relegated to the 3rd tier for the first time in our history My opinion is that he is a good Championship player, though not necessarily good enough to play week in-week out for a side that wins promotion, and that he is almost certainly not good enough to be a regular in the Premiership, though he may turn out to be a useful bit part player. So let's get that straight - this isn't an attack on King. As for the Watford game - there were several players who could have stopped that goal going in. If you fail to see that King was one of them, then that would pretty much make any further discussion futile. I have at no point stated that he was 'hugely responsible' for our run last season, neither have I said that it's his fault that we haven't got into the Premier League, or were relegated for the first time ever. Why you've tried to put those words into my mouth I can only imagine. I'm criticising people who fail to acknowledge his part in these disasters. I'm not blaming him for what happened anymore than I'd blame most of the others to feature in those teams. But the fact that we've pushed ourselves to the front of the race for promotion, for that golden egg we've been chasing all these years, and done it without King in the side, should not be ignored.
inckley fox Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 I could see him getting in at teams like Fulham, Cardiff, Villa, Crystal Palace, Norwich possibly even West Ham and Stoke. I'm under no illusion that if we do go up, which I'm still erring on the side of caution on that one, just how hard it will be. I disagree on the first point, to be honest. I think the sides in that list that he'd stand a chance of getting into are the ones that will most probably be playing in the second tier next year. But this is an opinion, and I'm sure there are sides in the Premier League, and half decent ones, that wouldn't mind having him in reserve. I doubt they'll be clamouring for his signature, but he could prove useful. Hopefully we'll see the sort of development in him that we saw in his first two seasons in the Championship, before his progress stalled. If we do he will be in the first team and he'll be more than 'useful', more than 'back up', but the past three years, and the fact that he's no longer a youngster, strongly suggest that he'll be a bench-warmer and not much more. But I'm with you 100% about caution. There's a long way to go yet. The same squad and the same manager got it wrong at this stage last time around. If we endure the same run of results we did from this point onwards in 2013 then we'll end up on 82 points and face the same old agonies all over again. Pearson will be gone, many of our best players will be gone, and it will hardly matter how good a top flight player Andy King could have turned out to be.
dmayne7 Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Firstly, if those are the 'meaningful facts' that we can agree on, then does that suggest that you disagree with the fact that we've done better in games that he hasn't started than in the ones that he has? Because that is a fact. And it's also a fact that we have collapsed at some point between December and February in each of the three previous campaigns, whereas this time - up to now - we haven't; in fact we've gone on to our most successful run ever and done it almost entirely without King in the side. As for the rest- 'Was' held in high esteem. That was three years ago. And subsequently dropped by every manager he has played for. None of which, apart from Pearson in League One, achieved their stated objective of promotion to the Premier League. At 24 and 25 Vardy was improving massively, having just had by far his best season at non-league level. At 25 King has failed to live up to the promise shown as a younger, developing player between 2008 and 2011. For the first time in years he has been dropped from the side for a prolonged period, which also happens to have coincided with our best run of form ever. Vardy, on the other hand, continues to improve as a player - it's part of an on-going development, rather than one which stalled three years ago. King is struggling to make our team having played for five years at this level. Vardy, after one, is a key part of it. So if we DO compare them, it hardly supports your argument. My opinion is that he is a good Championship player, though not necessarily good enough to play week in-week out for a side that wins promotion, and that he is almost certainly not good enough to be a regular in the Premiership, though he may turn out to be a useful bit part player. So let's get that straight - this isn't an attack on King. As for the Watford game - there were several players who could have stopped that goal going in. If you fail to see that King was one of them, then that would pretty much make any further discussion futile. I have at no point stated that he was 'hugely responsible' for our run last season, neither have I said that it's his fault that we haven't got into the Premier League, or were relegated for the first time ever. Why you've tried to put those words into my mouth I can only imagine. I'm criticising people who fail to acknowledge his part in these disasters. I'm not blaming him for what happened anymore than I'd blame most of the others to feature in those teams. But the fact that we've pushed ourselves to the front of the race for promotion, for that golden egg we've been chasing all these years, and done it without King in the side, should not be ignored. Like I said, we're never going to agree. You've got a well constructed argument with reason to back up you're assumptions but there's so much that I disagree with that I won't bother. I'm sure we've both got better things to do Oh, but if saying that he was 'instrumental in our decline' isn't suggesting that he was largely responsible then the English language must've changed recently.
dmayne7 Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 You're simply not reading. Again, because it makes you feel better I reckon. Read thru the thread and get back to me. What am I meant to be reading? The fact that you said you wouldn't state your opinion but have then gone onto make several posts in this thread. You don't particularly rate King? Am I wrong? If so, then you have a strange way of showing it. The point is, you come into every thread about him saying the same things (much like I do) yet you criticise somebody for supposedly doing the same just because they're on the opposite side of things. Strikes of hypocrisy to me I wouldn't bother trying to convince you otherwise on King because I know you're opinion, and you know mine. We clearly have very different philosophies with regards to football which is fine by me
inckley fox Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Like I said, we're never going to agree. You've got a well constructed argument with reason to back up you're assumptions but there's so much that I disagree with that I won't bother. I'm sure we've both got better things to do Oh, but if saying that he was 'instrumental in our decline' isn't suggesting that he was largely responsible then the English language must've changed recently. 'Instrumental' means to 'be a cause of' - no? Or 'a means of something happening'. I'd say King was a cause of those runs of poor form. Not THE cause, but still A cause, just like all of the other players. So responsible - yes. Hugely or largely responsible - no.
The Guvnor Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Nige isn't playing him for a reason he is not as good as the regular first team players simples.
Grewks Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 What you have to remember about king is the fact that he has played the same amount of professional games as both drinkwater and james combined, scored a hell of a lot more goals than both combined, and 25 international appearances. I personally think the break will not do him any harm at all, to already play the amount of games he has for his age is remarkable really...i personally cannot see drinky or james having played 250 games by the age of 25, especially given the reduced number of games in the premier league. Like many a footballer, king has weaknesses, and they have been exposed in the past. Let us not forget, without James in the side last season we all say the weaknesses of Drinky aswell. Unfortunately for Kingy at the moment, James and drinky compliment each other perfectly, one's weakness is the others strength. King has never been partnered in midfield by a player who has done what James has for Drinky. It would be interesting to see however whether the 3 could play together, as they may have to next year. Despite the difference in quality, a midfield of lennon, savage and izzet does share many of the same roles as drinky, james and king. One the ball winner, one the engine and one the create/scorer. I seem to remember similar threads to this last season about when james/drinky were out of the side. It is a team game. How long until a thread about wood pops up? Or even Moore if Was continues to impress?? Can we not just be happy to have quality in-depth for once? As oppose to over paid mercenaries??
Guest Col city fan Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 What am I meant to be reading? The fact that you said you wouldn't state your opinion but have then gone onto make several posts in this thread. You don't particularly rate King? Am I wrong? If so, then you have a strange way of showing it. The point is, you come into every thread about him saying the same things (much like I do) yet you criticise somebody for supposedly doing the same just because they're on the opposite side of things. Strikes of hypocrisy to me I wouldn't bother trying to convince you otherwise on King because I know you're opinion, and you know mine. We clearly have very different philosophies with regards to football which is fine by me How do you know what my 'footballing philosophy' is? .. just because I don't rate Andy King as much as you and because I know we are currently much better in midfield? What a bizarre post?
dmayne7 Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 How do you know what my 'footballing philosophy' is? .. just because I don't rate Andy King as much as you and because I know we are currently much better in midfield? What a bizarre post? Well, we have a very different opinion on a player and several others. I know you're a huge advocate on a big unit in the middle of the park (which we still don't have) and I know that you'd like to play forward thinking players in defensive midfield, so from that I can assume that we have very differing opinions and preferences on football. I'm slightly worried that saying that has appeared to strike a nerve! I was simply stating that we prefer different styles of play and players. Sorry for upsetting you
Guest Col city fan Posted 27 February 2014 Posted 27 February 2014 Well, we have a very different opinion on a player and several others. I know you're a huge advocate on a big unit in the middle of the park (which we still don't have) and I know that you'd like to play forward thinking players in defensive midfield, so from that I can assume that we have very differing opinions and preferences on football. I'm slightly worried that saying that has appeared to strike a nerve! I was simply stating that we prefer different styles of play and players. Sorry for upsetting you No, its simply that you're talking balls...so to speak..
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