Rincewind Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 They suffer the same illness regardless of their reasons and are no less worthy of sympathy. That is my point. If you wish to ignore that it does happen then that is up to you. I was saying as someone else was, that if it happens to someone well known its ' Well it can happen to amyone' and for spmeone at the bottom its ' well its their own fault and they are being selfish.' It is a fact that there has been an increase in suicides for whatever reason. It just shows more people have suffered stress. I am not putting the blame on anyone as there are many factors involved.
separator Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 People who commit suicide by walking in front of trains/cars/whatever and traumatising many other people are cvnts, pure and simple. I know of a train driver who, a few years ago, had somebody jump in front of his train. He was driving a train that has a door in the front of the cab, the suicide ended up smashing through the front door of the train and ended up next to the driver in the cab. He hasn't driven a train since as far as I know... very selfish act to commit suicide in front of an innocent party
MooseBreath Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 It is a fact that there has been an increase in suicides for whatever reason. I can't find anything to support this statement through Google. The only long term figures show a small decline over recent decades but there doesn't appear to be any proper source of suicide data from the last two years. Do you have a source? I agree that it sometimes takes a shocking story like this to bring an issue into the public consciousness, but in this case it's about mental illness not the spare room subsidy and it's a bit tasteless to try and gain traction on unrelated issues through a tragedy.
Vardinhio Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 He must have been in a really dark place so I feel terribly sorry for him. You only get one shot at life and you can't take back suicide. In one moment of severe trauma or dispear making that decision can end it all. If you could regret suicide, my belief is that lots of people that go on to commit it would do. Mel Gibson summarised well saying "he's gone too soon, he should of stuck around". RIP Robin x
Haydos Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 They suffer the same illness regardless of their reasons and are no less worthy of sympathy. That is my point. If you wish to ignore that it does happen then that is up to you. I was saying as someone else was, that if it happens to someone well known its ' Well it can happen to amyone' and for spmeone at the bottom its ' well its their own fault and they are being selfish.' It is a fact that there has been an increase in suicides for whatever reason. It just shows more people have suffered stress. I am not putting the blame on anyone as there are many factors involved. Who says that? You make so much rubbish up just to prove your point it's silly. Like Moose says, where's your source for the suicide rate increase?
Vardinhio Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 Maybe Ken means there is more media coverage of suicide these days? It is certainly much more on our radar than 5 years ago.
Vardinhio Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 amazing how many insightful quotes about living are tucked away in Robin's films. I have just found another one where in Hook Wendy remarks to Peter that his adventures are now over, but Peter says to live would be an awfully big adventure. So sad.
Rincewind Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 Surprisingly this is from Mail Online I googled Atos suicide and there is at least one page. Whether you believe them is another matter. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2117718/British-people-committing-suicide-escape-poverty-Is-State-wants.html Anyway without knowing what a person is who has gone through depression is not always visible. The sufferers do not think straight and may even think that they are doing the right thing for the loved ones. One suicide victim left a note saying that he had failed his young son and felt he could not provide a good life for him. I doubt they are thinking straight or they would consider what effect their suicide will have on others.
Rincewind Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 Who says that? You make so much rubbish up just to prove your point it's silly. Like Moose says, where's your source for the suicide rate increase? I'm sure I saw a post that said Peaches Guildolf was selfish for leaving her kids behind and another of the M6 woman being a cvnt. I took that to mean being selfish. Sorry I got the two words mixed up.
MooseBreath Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 Surprisingly this is from Mail Online I googled Atos suicide and there is at least one page. Whether you believe them is another matter. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2117718/British-people-committing-suicide-escape-poverty-Is-State-wants.html That's certainly alarmist if not alarming but it doesn't say anything about suicide rates increasing?
Parafox Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 That's certainly alarmist if not alarming but it doesn't say anything about suicide rates increasing? I would say alarming and not something I would expect to see in the Daily Mail. That said it fits the DM criteria of being alarmist but I would have thought there would have been at least some reference to Eastern Europeans eating our children and stealing our grandparents. I imagine there is an increase in reported suicides where the reason is disclosed as being linked to poverty. Not necessarily an overall rise in suicide rates per se.
MooseBreath Posted 15 August 2014 Posted 15 August 2014 I would say alarming and not something I would expect to see in the Daily Mail. That said it fits the DM criteria of being alarmist but I would have thought there would have been at least some reference to Eastern Europeans eating our children and stealing our grandparents. I imagine there is an increase in reported suicides where the reason is disclosed as being linked to poverty. Not necessarily an overall rise in suicide rates per se. Yeah I was surprised reading that in the DM too. Worth noting that the article is nearly two and a half years old though and the author has since stopped writing for the DM. Looking back through her article history and it was fairly consistent tory/business/success bashing much more typical of the guardian. A bit odd. If it's true that the number of people committing suicide due to poverty in this country is rising significantly then that is alarming. But such a rise doesn't seem to have been reported anywhere on the Internet other than by Rincey on here.
Rincewind Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 Are you calling me a liar? Not that I am bothered I find it funny. If anyone wants any information and proof then email these people. They have plenty of information on many areas including the disabled sick and homeless. Hope this ends it. mail@dpac.uk.net
MooseBreath Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 Are you calling me a liar? Not that I am bothered I find it funny. If anyone wants any information and proof then email these people. They have plenty of information on many areas including the disabled sick and homeless. Hope this ends it. [email protected] No, I'm not calling you a liar Rincey, just for my own interest I'm trying to verify a pretty dramatic claim you made but so far not having much luck. I'll assume that since you haven't provided one you don't have a readily available source, and people will take from that what they will. In the meantime it's probably better not to derail this thread any further.
Haydos Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 amazing how many insightful quotes about living are tucked away in Robin's films. I have just found another one where in Hook Wendy remarks to Peter that his adventures are now over, but Peter says to live would be an awfully big adventure. So sad. I think the line from the book is "To die would be an awfully big adventure" which is just as fitting. I think my favourite is from Aladin.... "But oh, to be free. Not to have to go "Poof! What do you need, "Poof! What do you need, Poof! What do you need?". To be my own master. Such a thing would be greater than all the magic and all the treasures in all the world. But what am I talking about? Let's get real here, that's never gonna happen."
Haydos Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 I'm sure I saw a post that said Peaches Guildolf was selfish for leaving her kids behind and another of the M6 woman being a cvnt. I took that to mean being selfish. Sorry I got the two words mixed up. As you said, depression is very difficult to understand and we can't truly understand what's going on in peoples heads. Personally I can get past the leaving-kids-behind bit (even though it does come across as something that I would think would keep you wanting to go on with things) but throwing yourself in front of a train, ruining other peoples lives is grade A selfishness and attention seeking. Until I see that explained I will go on thinking that. There are so many ways to top yourself, if it really is that bad then do it in private.
Rincewind Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/223050/incap_decd_recips_0712.pdf http://dpac.uk.net/research/ http://ukcarers.net/ukcarersdotnet_004.htm Some interesting stats and tables taken from DWP own figures and missed by the media http://dpac.uk.net/category/bbc/ More available on request from http://[email protected] [email protected] Feel free to email them from the contact page with your questions thoughts and opinions. Post replies and comments on the web page if you feel they or any of the reports and articles are wrong and are able to provide genuine counter arguments and evidence to disprove anything that goes against your beliefs.
Rincewind Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 As you said, depression is very difficult to understand and we can't truly understand what's going on in peoples heads. Personally I can get past the leaving-kids-behind bit (even though it does come across as something that I would think would keep you wanting to go on with things) but throwing yourself in front of a train, ruining other peoples lives is grade A selfishness and attention seeking. Until I see that explained I will go on thinking that. There are so many ways to top yourself, if it really is that bad then do it in private. I can see what you are saying. I feel the same. I was just trying to find a reason for it not to be thought of selfish. Not easy. I would never do it. i'm a coward and I think maybe tomorrow will be better. But I have thought would I be missed. Then I come back to reality. I want to see City win the FA cup and PL so that is one reason to struggle on. But those with depression usually have an history of it going back to childhood. if they are having a bad time financially stress or whatever it can trigger things off. There may not be definite proof between suicide and DWP but a loss of income waiting to be assessed and appeals threat of eviction does not improve matters. Stress can also cause heart attacks. Robin Williams reasons were different but he still had the same illness and should be treated as such. Great actor will be missed. Watched Good Will Hunting. Strange that two of his films recently shown he played a psychiatrist The Awakenings on the other night he played a doctor in a hostpital who developed a drug to bring patients out of a deep coma like state. Robert De Nero played the main one. Based on true events and at the time the film was made the doctor still worked in New York.
Rincewind Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 What does sympathy even mean? Not a lot.A pat on the head and a 'Never mind' What is needed is empathy 'I feel your pain' I know someone who supposedly commited suicide. He used to work with me and he was thought to have jumped from his flat window the tower block next to the station. In his room was found a pile of unpaid bills. Only the week before he had knocked on my door asking to borrow money which I said I had none to spare. I sometimes wonder if I did right and was it a contributory cause. He also had problems with his sight. His Mother who he had lost had gone blind around his age. His father had remarried and he did not get along with his step mother. Also and this is where have some doubt over the suicide verdict, liked his beer. It was a hot day/night and I can see him trying to open a window and falling out. He once said to me that if he was to commit suicide it would be with a bottle of whiskey and a bottle of pills. He never appeared depressed or mentioned ant financial difficulties. He used drink as an escape. Not a complete alcolholic but just excessive as in living day to day and not worry about the next days bills. This was almost 30 years ago now and I walk by the building nearly every day. His flat was near the top which he had asked for. The higher the better. So maybe the thought had entered his head.
MooseBreath Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 Not a lot.A pat on the head and a 'Never mind' What is needed is empathy 'I feel your pain' That would be lying though, wouldn't it? Clearly none of us have ever been so depressed that we've killed ourselves. So what actual benefit is there to anyone in empathy?
Rincewind Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 That would be lying though, wouldn't it? Clearly none of us have ever been so depressed that we've killed ourselves. So what actual benefit is there to anyone in empathy? You tell me.
casablancas Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 In my experience (10 years nursing and psychology) within mental health the majority of suicides are A) accidents and B) the victim in my experience are not diagnosed with a mental illness but rather a mental disorder. Which suggests that people who take part in risk taking behaviour and self injurious behaviours are not generally clinically depressed but have some sort of psychological disorder, such as; PTSD, border line personalty disorder or emotionally unstable disorder. I'm not saying they may not have low mood but people who are clinically depressed / moderate or above don't normally have the motivation or energy to take part in self injurious behaviours such as deliberate self harm or actual suicide attempts. But I think we can all agree a loss of life no matter how is something to be mourned.
MooseBreath Posted 16 August 2014 Posted 16 August 2014 You tell me. I don't know, you said it was needed and defined what you think it is, so I was asking you what use there is in it.
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