Technology, Science and the Environment.

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, jgtuk said:

It’s such a dilemma, wanting Elon to crash and burn but also wanting SpaceX to be successful… 

The scientific community must be absolutely (morally at least) torn. 

From what I know and have seen, they really are torn, yes.

 

They know the necessity of advancement in this field, while despising the politics and name it is being done in.

 

34 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Musk wants to go to mars ..or does he kjust want the trillions pf $$ that the gov will give to his corporations.? Soacex is a joke.. it has failed on everyone of its deadlines and tools

The whole space game is a joke... the billions/trillions being spent are just tools of war and corporate profiteering. Musk has said to use Mars adequately he will have regualarly explode atom bombs in the atmosphere.

If you want to save the earth, you need to take all the wasted $$ going to mars and spend them saving Earth.

Or, as discussed before, we can make every effort to do both because treating this as an either/or problem will end in disaster both ways.

 

At some point, the, Earth (or space itself) is going to throw a massive problem at us that will require space-based tech, resources or knowledge to deal with. No matter how good we are at being custodians of the Earth (and we really need to do far better on that one, as well).

[reporterpenguin]

46 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Musk wants to go to mars ..or does he kjust want the trillions pf $$ that the gov will give to his corporations.? Soacex is a joke.. it has failed on everyone of its deadlines and tools

The whole space game is a joke... the billions/trillions being spent are just tools of war and corporate profiteering. Musk has said to use Mars adequately he will have regualarly explode atom bombs in the atmosphere.

If you want to save the earth, you need to take all the wasted $$ going to mars and spend them saving Earth.

A respectful hard disagree on most of that.

 

The benefits of space exploration are significant to life on earth. From SpaceX Starlink has already had an enormous impact in disaster relief, and the availability of high speed internet to remote communities is a fantastic way to provide a route out of poverty. Reuse has also been a game changer in terms of lower launch costs, opening up access to space for everything from commercial communication and climate science satellites. 

 

Deadlines in aerospace are virtually never met, so I don't think that's a particularly fair stick to beat them with. Just look at Boeing's commercial crew capsule and the delays and costs of that to see how far behind deadlines a traditional giant company can be. Their contract was worth significantly more than that awarded to SpaceX and is yet to complete an operational mission, whereas SpaceX are already on their 10th operational mission. 

 

Things almost all of us will benefit from today include GPS, weather forecasting, communications (remote TV news broadcasts, direct TV, internet), all possible because of investment in space technology. Then there's the indirect benefits, from tech miniaturisation to non-stick pans, and a host of other things.

 

Nuking Mars likely won't happen, it's just a theoretical way to make it more habitable. Yes going to Mars will cost a lot of money, and of course that money could be spent on Earth, but in the grand scheme of things it won't be a significant amount of the worlds GDP. There always have been and always will be problems on Earth that need money, should we not have spent money exploring the world? Should we not fund scientific research? We can do both, and we should do both IMO.

 

I think @jgtuk is right, it's not fair to conflate Musk with the incredible work of thousands of hard working and talented engineers. 

[ozleicester]

Trillions of dollars
incredible damage to the earth
its main goal is military 

and still... https://edition.cnn.com/science/live-news/spacex-starship-flight-8-launch-03-03-25/index.html

Spacex is NOT about bettering society or helping people on earth. Its only role is to fund Elon and put litteral billions into his and his corporate mates pockets.

Its not the 60s anymore, we can work out stuff we need to work out with out going  into space... anyone complaining about cars, planes or cows destroying our environment needs to look at how much damage this folly is doing.

This is about Profits and WAR
 

[leicsmac]

Scrubbed, wet dress rehearsal.

[leicsmac]

On the topic of Musk, however:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3e44ge0xnwo

 

Behind the imposing doors of the world's oldest scientific academy, the Royal Society, confidential talks have been taking place.

The gathering of 150 members on Monday evening was effectively a crisis meeting, held amid a growing campaign urging the society to expel its most controversial member - Elon Musk.

Mr Musk's achievements earned him a fellowship of the Royal Society back in 2018., external

But, over the last nine months, many scientists have raised concerns about the billionaire's behaviour, which has been called a threat to science.

 

It is a great shame that the man decided to become Ted Faro rather than Tony Stark.

[Dunge]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jg4n776evo
 

Thoughts? I would love to see a real-life mammoth. But is the journey there too unethical?

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Dunge said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0jg4n776evo
 

Thoughts? I would love to see a real-life mammoth. But is the journey there too unethical?

I'm sure Michael Crichton would have something to say about unintended consequences on this one, but given this is really at the very early stage it's no guarantee they'll get anywhere near where they want to go anyway.

[SpacedX]

The Blue Ghost landing footage is simply stunning. 

 

 

[Zear0]

47 minutes ago, SpacedX said:

The Blue Ghost landing footage is simply stunning. 

 

 

Fake

[leicsmac]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)02350-X/fulltext

 

"A human-driven mass extinction is underway. The 2024 Living Planet Report reveals that the average size of monitored wildlife populations has shrunk by 73% in just 50 years, with the steepest declines in Latin America and the Caribbean (95%), Africa (76%), Asia–Pacific (60%), and in freshwater ecosystems (85%). Although estimates vary, the species extinction rate is thought to be 10–100 times higher than the natural baseline. This rapid loss of species is driven by anthropogenic overpopulation, habitat destruction, exploitation, and climate change. Industrialised societies have long adopted an extractionist perspective towards the natural world, viewing ecosystems as resources to be exploited and consumed for profit. Yet, in this pursuit, we ignore that the very ecosystems we destroy are key to our survival."

 

While our species continues its petty and short-sighted squabbling along itself, if grossly overlooks something so much more threatening to human future.

[samlcfc]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)02350-X/fulltext

 

"A human-driven mass extinction is underway. The 2024 Living Planet Report reveals that the average size of monitored wildlife populations has shrunk by 73% in just 50 years, with the steepest declines in Latin America and the Caribbean (95%), Africa (76%), Asia–Pacific (60%), and in freshwater ecosystems (85%). Although estimates vary, the species extinction rate is thought to be 10–100 times higher than the natural baseline. This rapid loss of species is driven by anthropogenic overpopulation, habitat destruction, exploitation, and climate change. Industrialised societies have long adopted an extractionist perspective towards the natural world, viewing ecosystems as resources to be exploited and consumed for profit. Yet, in this pursuit, we ignore that the very ecosystems we destroy are key to our survival."

 

While our species continues its petty and short-sighted squabbling along itself, if grossly overlooks something so much more threatening to human future.

Reading the numbers on these sorts of statements is wild.

 

Although humans generally consider ourselves fairly adaptable, it feels like the sort of cause and effect calculations we use for planning can't possibly match the scale in these figures.

 

Where scientific research is a best approximation for us to plan off of too, it seems like the more research that is completed, the more dire the understanding of our circumstances becomes.

 

I'm not exactly wedded to the concept of perpetual human existence, but I'm imagining a level of untold human suffering that wouldn't be pretty to witness or live through.

 

I had a researcher friend go to a weekend of talks a month or so ago. He just looked defeated. Didn't even fancy pressing him to talk about it.

Edited 5 March by samlcfc

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, samlcfc said:

Reading the numbers on these sorts of statements is wild.

 

Although humans generally consider ourselves fairly adaptable, it feels like the sort of cause and effect calculations we use for planning can't possibly match the scale in these figures.

 

Where scientific research is a best approximation for us to plan off of too, it seems like the more research that is completed, the more dire the understanding of our circumstances becomes.

 

I'm not exactly wedded to the concept of perpetual human existence, but I'm imagining a level of untold human suffering that wouldn't be pretty to witness or live through.

 

I had a researcher friend go to a weekend of talks a month or so ago. He just looked defeated. Didn't even fancy pressing him to talk about it.

Spot on. (Particularly regarding the bit where the more we find out, the direr the picture appears to be.)

 

And the worst thing is that we're actively walking towards that era of untold human suffering because too many people either consider the issue abstract, beyond their control or actively don't care because nothing matters beyond the end of their own lives or they think the suffering won't otherwise touch them.

 

We could well be giving future generations - such of those who may be left - every reason to utterly  despise every one of us, both for making this happen and for letting this happen.

Edited 5 March by leicsmac

[JonnyBoy]

strange question - anyone any good with telescopes? i bought one off Amazon the other day, it was £130 but it doesn't exactly show the stars/planets in much closer up detail than not using it? i haven't tried it on the moon yet as was last week when it wasn't visible much.

 

Do i have to invest in stronger magnification lenses? this is the one i purchased.. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Telescopes-Astronomy-Refractor-Telescope-Telescopio/dp/B08T7844LT/ref=sr_1_4?adgrpid=159572245094&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.HjAMcRzwuLjk24zUUYFu5bD8R-X75dZkG0YmkDbHQupf3R9keoQelvMinDVnkbdDkE7T4KUwiFUor10eKyIEAdbtQmFIT3QHorzWn6cqA1_jFvb5PUcgUfaJV7ZpAbFClYKvSFjFbRgWG09noiO_BQBWQkBogD94I5qp6sKixGA0-_gpnleyVNAGZBE63Ah1lj0iCPuPSmYRdDl_8XygZPVlwuG1xK7HArUKDNIjtTc.chpU136pNyqOjPhXiwKyoMM6Rm7Tfd3fPvoom8RCEEY&dib_tag=se&gad_source=1&hvadid=696177792843&hvdev=c&hvexpln=69&hvlocphy=9219239&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=14164294393252200244--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14164294393252200244&hvtargid=kwd-305972965350&hydadcr=18511_2257244&keywords=telescope%2Bamazon&mcid=2fd03b56af1a3fbb9c9721ed7dce1ba8&qid=1741174155&sr=8-4&th=1 

 

it has really good reviews so was surprised it wasn't very good, it also comes with a small scope attached on the side with a cross in it, no idea what that is for. 

[davieG]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Spot on. (Particularly regarding the bit where the more we find out, the direr the picture appears to be.)

 

And the worst thing is that we're actively walking towards that era of untold human suffering because too many people either consider the issue abstract, beyond their control or actively don't care because nothing matters beyond the end of their own lives or they think the suffering won't otherwise touch them.

 

We could well be giving future generations - such of those who may be left - every reason to utterly  despise every one of us, both for making this happen and for letting this happen.

I get the feeling that many of the young already despise us older lot blaming us for the pending environmental disaster whilst continuing to use evermore valuable resources and the pollution of the land sea and air. We're all culpable and continue to be so there's very few innocents.

[leicsmac]

47 minutes ago, davieG said:

I get the feeling that many of the young already despise us older lot blaming us for the pending environmental disaster whilst continuing to use evermore valuable resources and the pollution of the land sea and air. We're all culpable and continue to be so there's very few innocents.

That may well be because the "young" see that those in and with power to really help change over the past few decades but have not done nearly enough as all "old".

 

Unfortunately that then gets spun like all of the "old" think that way and have that power, which they don't.

 

I agree that we're culpable for this as a species, not as demographics, and should the worst happen, those who are left and looking for someone to blame will certainly see it that way too.

[reporterpenguin]

4 hours ago, JonnyBoy said:

strange question - anyone any good with telescopes? i bought one off Amazon the other day, it was £130 but it doesn't exactly show the stars/planets in much closer up detail than not using it? i haven't tried it on the moon yet as was last week when it wasn't visible much.

 

Do i have to invest in stronger magnification lenses? this is the one i purchased.. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Telescopes-Astronomy-Refractor-Telescope-Telescopio/dp/B08T7844LT/ref=sr_1_4?adgrpid=159572245094&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.HjAMcRzwuLjk24zUUYFu5bD8R-X75dZkG0YmkDbHQupf3R9keoQelvMinDVnkbdDkE7T4KUwiFUor10eKyIEAdbtQmFIT3QHorzWn6cqA1_jFvb5PUcgUfaJV7ZpAbFClYKvSFjFbRgWG09noiO_BQBWQkBogD94I5qp6sKixGA0-_gpnleyVNAGZBE63Ah1lj0iCPuPSmYRdDl_8XygZPVlwuG1xK7HArUKDNIjtTc.chpU136pNyqOjPhXiwKyoMM6Rm7Tfd3fPvoom8RCEEY&dib_tag=se&gad_source=1&hvadid=696177792843&hvdev=c&hvexpln=69&hvlocphy=9219239&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=14164294393252200244--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14164294393252200244&hvtargid=kwd-305972965350&hydadcr=18511_2257244&keywords=telescope%2Bamazon&mcid=2fd03b56af1a3fbb9c9721ed7dce1ba8&qid=1741174155&sr=8-4&th=1 

 

it has really good reviews so was surprised it wasn't very good, it also comes with a small scope attached on the side with a cross in it, no idea what that is for. 

Technically I'm an astrophysicist/astronomer by trade, so I can offer a few points.

 

A telescope has two purposes: gather as much light as possible to give a brighter image, and magnify.

 

This telescope has a fairly small aperture of 80mm, so it's not going to be gathering much light so it's not going to be very bright. It does, however, have a reasonable focal length which is what gives the magnification. Together this means your telescope is going to be best looking at bright objects that need to be magnified, so planets and the moon.

 

Venus and Jupiter will be your best targets at the moment. Venus is fairly featureless to look at due to its highly reflective cloudy atmosphere, but you should be able to quite clearly see its crescent shape. Jupiter is quite an interesting one to look at, particularly the moons. The four Galilean moons should be visible, and over the course of even a few hours you can see how they move around the planet. You might be able to see some faint banding of the clouds, but that might be slightly beyond the capabilities of the scope. Similarly, the Great Red Spot may also be just about visible when the timing is right.

 

The moon should be pretty spectacular, especially at the moment while it's a fairly thin crescent which means a lot of shadows from the craters which really show the texture well when properly focused. 

 

The small scope on the side is called a finder scope, once you have something centred in the main scope there should be a couple of small adjustment screws on the side of the finder. Centre the crosshairs on where the main scope is centred and the low magnification of the finder makes it much easier to point it accurately at things.

 

In terms of stars, even with the biggest scientific telescopes they're still just pinpoints of light. There are some cool binary stars though, especially Albireo in the constellation Cygnus. It's two stars at very different temperatures, and you should be able to see one looking golden and the other blue. The Orion Nebula in the sword of Orion may also be interesting to look at with a scope like yours. Some of the brighter globular clusters might be worth a look at, for example the Hercules globular cluster. The open cluster of the Pleiades might look nice as well. But with the fairly small aperture of your telescope, it's only the brightest objects that will be worth viewing.

 

Any questions let me know!

[JonnyBoy]

3 hours ago, reporterpenguin said:

Technically I'm an astrophysicist/astronomer by trade, so I can offer a few points.

 

A telescope has two purposes: gather as much light as possible to give a brighter image, and magnify.

 

This telescope has a fairly small aperture of 80mm, so it's not going to be gathering much light so it's not going to be very bright. It does, however, have a reasonable focal length which is what gives the magnification. Together this means your telescope is going to be best looking at bright objects that need to be magnified, so planets and the moon.

 

Venus and Jupiter will be your best targets at the moment. Venus is fairly featureless to look at due to its highly reflective cloudy atmosphere, but you should be able to quite clearly see its crescent shape. Jupiter is quite an interesting one to look at, particularly the moons. The four Galilean moons should be visible, and over the course of even a few hours you can see how they move around the planet. You might be able to see some faint banding of the clouds, but that might be slightly beyond the capabilities of the scope. Similarly, the Great Red Spot may also be just about visible when the timing is right.

 

The moon should be pretty spectacular, especially at the moment while it's a fairly thin crescent which means a lot of shadows from the craters which really show the texture well when properly focused. 

 

The small scope on the side is called a finder scope, once you have something centred in the main scope there should be a couple of small adjustment screws on the side of the finder. Centre the crosshairs on where the main scope is centred and the low magnification of the finder makes it much easier to point it accurately at things.

 

In terms of stars, even with the biggest scientific telescopes they're still just pinpoints of light. There are some cool binary stars though, especially Albireo in the constellation Cygnus. It's two stars at very different temperatures, and you should be able to see one looking golden and the other blue. The Orion Nebula in the sword of Orion may also be interesting to look at with a scope like yours. Some of the brighter globular clusters might be worth a look at, for example the Hercules globular cluster. The open cluster of the Pleiades might look nice as well. But with the fairly small aperture of your telescope, it's only the brightest objects that will be worth viewing.

 

Any questions let me know!

 

Thank you that is really helpful, managed to get the moon tonight and looks brilliant, craters really stand out more.

 

So do i need to use the finder scope at all? it takes me a while but i eventually got the moon into sight, i take it the larger scope is what you need once you have the object in line? 

 

I don't think out of my loft window i can see Jupiter/Venus, are they obvious to find in the sky? i can see Mars as it shines an orange colour but again no luck magnifying it - doesn't really show any detail versus say the Moon (unless I am doing it wrong which is a high possibility). 

[Parafox]

3 hours ago, reporterpenguin said:

Technically I'm an astrophysicist/astronomer by trade, so I can offer a few points.

 

 

On FT. Wow. 

 

Just, wow.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Parafox said:

 

On FT. Wow. 

 

Just, wow.

We've got quite a few science bods on here, one reason I like FT so much is that it's a pretty broad church.

[Parafox]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

We've got quite a few science bods on here, one reason I like FT so much is that it's a pretty broad church.

 

I agree. It is remarkable the depth of knowledge, experience, and expertise that this "simple football forum" provides us.

 

Mrs Para wonders why I spend so much time on here. I tell her it's not just a bunch of supporters (although it is). It's so much more than that.

 

I've "visited" others and they are nothing like FT.

 

To all contributors, from all walks of life, WELL DONE, keep it up. We all make FT what it is 

 

Even Harry Burton, whoever he really is. 

Edited 5 March by Parafox

[reporterpenguin]

2 hours ago, JonnyBoy said:

 

Thank you that is really helpful, managed to get the moon tonight and looks brilliant, craters really stand out more.

 

So do i need to use the finder scope at all? it takes me a while but i eventually got the moon into sight, i take it the larger scope is what you need once you have the object in line? 

 

I don't think out of my loft window i can see Jupiter/Venus, are they obvious to find in the sky? i can see Mars as it shines an orange colour but again no luck magnifying it - doesn't really show any detail versus say the Moon (unless I am doing it wrong which is a high possibility). 

The finder is pretty helpful once it's well aligned, it has a much wider field of view which makes it much easier to find what you're looking for and get it lined up.

 

Venus is super bright at the moment in the west, it's even visible before the sun has fully set. At sunset look above and slightly to the left of where the sun sets and you should see it. Jupiter is just to the left of the Moon at the moment and is also very bright, quite a lot brighter than Mars is.

 

And on the subject of Mars, I've always found it quite underwhelming to look at with a telescope. It appears about ⅓ the size of Jupiter despite being closer, and is generally a pretty uniform blob. Depending on how it's titled relative to Earth you might just be able to see a hint of the ice caps, but it's still pretty uninteresting to see tbh.

 

Good luck!

[Zear0]

2 hours ago, JonnyBoy said:

 

Thank you that is really helpful, managed to get the moon tonight and looks brilliant, craters really stand out more.

 

So do i need to use the finder scope at all? it takes me a while but i eventually got the moon into sight, i take it the larger scope is what you need once you have the object in line? 

 

I don't think out of my loft window i can see Jupiter/Venus, are they obvious to find in the sky? i can see Mars as it shines an orange colour but again no luck magnifying it - doesn't really show any detail versus say the Moon (unless I am doing it wrong which is a high possibility). 

There are a few mobile apps that help navigate with the naked eye with AR. I still use Google Sky Maps which is sadly discontinued, but Night Sky 11, Star walk and others are good for just confirming what you're looking at. 

[ozleicester]

On 03/03/2025 at 20:58, leicsmac said:

From what I know and have seen, they really are torn, yes.

 

They know the necessity of advancement in this field, while despising the politics and name it is being done in.

 

Or, as discussed before, we can make every effort to do both because treating this as an either/or problem will end in disaster both ways.

 

At some point, the, Earth (or space itself) is going to throw a massive problem at us that will require space-based tech, resources or knowledge to deal with. No matter how good we are at being custodians of the Earth (and we really need to do far better on that one, as well).

It is more than clear that we can NOT do both.

The potential benefits like those derived from previous space missions are now able to be discovered by technology without the need to burn gazillions of litres of fuel (lol if youve bought an electric car to save the world) and destroy the planet for rare earth and machining. You cannot support the environment destroying space program and say you care about the earth in the same breath.

The landing on the moon now and Mars in the future has NOTHING to do with benefiting humanity, Its a little boys daddy pleasing excerise, a plan for weapons and war... and a tool for creating wealth for a small bunch of shareholders. Musk knows that no PRIVATE sector invesors will give him the TRILLIONS of dollars he needs to impress daddy so he takes over the government and ensures they keep on funding his folly. The Department of Defence is the biggest funder of spacex... i wonder why?

This mysterious "outer space problem" is very certainly a mystery... and to solve that problem isnt something we can neccessarily plan for...to quote a wonderful song.... 

...the real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind; the kind that blindside you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday.

We dont know what the problem may/will be in the cloudy and eternal future.. we know what the problems are RIGHT NOW and the space program is doing NOTHING to help them... if anything it is increasing them. We know that right now on earth millions are dying, being displaced ansd suffering and that could be alleviated by stopping the trillions going to a few peoples folly.

This is the point at which some scientists become part of a cult, this is where the blind faith in science becomes the same as religious fervour, they cannot see beyond their beliefs to face reality and focus on the life in the future rather than existence right now. 

Beyond putting people into and out of space and feeding the egos and pockets of Musk and his mates what has SPacex actually achieved?  

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, ozleicester said:

It is more than clear that we can NOT do both.

The potential benefits like those derived from previous space missions are now able to be discovered by technology without the need to burn gazillions of litres of fuel (lol if youve bought an electric car to save the world) and destroy the planet for rare earth and machining. You cannot support the environment destroying space program and say you care about the earth in the same breath.

The landing on the moon now and Mars in the future has NOTHING to do with benefiting humanity, Its a little boys daddy pleasing excerise, a plan for weapons and war... and a tool for creating wealth for a small bunch of shareholders. Musk knows that no PRIVATE sector invesors will give him the TRILLIONS of dollars he needs to impress daddy so he takes over the government and ensures they keep on funding his folly. The Department of Defence is the biggest funder of spacex... i wonder why?

This mysterious "outer space problem" is very certainly a mystery... and to solve that problem isnt something we can neccessarily plan for...to quote a wonderful song.... 

...the real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind; the kind that blindside you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday.

We dont know what the problem may/will be in the cloudy and eternal future.. we know what the problems are RIGHT NOW and the space program is doing NOTHING to help them... if anything it is increasing them. We know that right now on earth millions are dying, being displaced ansd suffering and that could be alleviated by stopping the trillions going to a few peoples folly.

This is the point at which some scientists become part of a cult, this is where the blind faith in science becomes the same as religious fervour, they cannot see beyond their beliefs to face reality and focus on the life in the future rather than existence right now. 

Beyond putting people into and out of space and feeding the egos and pockets of Musk and his mates what has SPacex actually achieved?  

The events that killed the dinosaurs, caused the Ordovincian-Silurian extinction event and reduced humanity to a mere handful of numbers 70000 years ago are not mysterious.

 

Three different causes, all would happen no matter how well we take care of the Earth, all would require advanced technology, space based and/or otherwise, to even begin to stop or mitigate. They're as real as the very real problems of human suffering and biodiversity crash, to name but two.

 

Focusing on the future makes sure that there will actually be one for any or all of us. Not planning for that is... well, asking for trouble.

 

NB. I feel the same way about Musk and the privatisation of space exploration as you do - it's a recipe for dystopia. But the solution to that is to elect governments that do the same thing for the benefit of all, not abandon the matter entirely.

 

You're a good person and I'm pretty damn sure you've done more for direct aid for people that need it than I have. However, I think the future will need people like both of us.

[Zear0]

7 hours ago, ozleicester said:

It is more than clear that we can NOT do both.

The potential benefits like those derived from previous space missions are now able to be discovered by technology without the need to burn gazillions of litres of fuel (lol if youve bought an electric car to save the world) and destroy the planet for rare earth and machining. You cannot support the environment destroying space program and say you care about the earth in the same breath.

The landing on the moon now and Mars in the future has NOTHING to do with benefiting humanity, Its a little boys daddy pleasing excerise, a plan for weapons and war... and a tool for creating wealth for a small bunch of shareholders. Musk knows that no PRIVATE sector invesors will give him the TRILLIONS of dollars he needs to impress daddy so he takes over the government and ensures they keep on funding his folly. The Department of Defence is the biggest funder of spacex... i wonder why?

This mysterious "outer space problem" is very certainly a mystery... and to solve that problem isnt something we can neccessarily plan for...to quote a wonderful song.... 

...the real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind; the kind that blindside you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday.

We dont know what the problem may/will be in the cloudy and eternal future.. we know what the problems are RIGHT NOW and the space program is doing NOTHING to help them... if anything it is increasing them. We know that right now on earth millions are dying, being displaced ansd suffering and that could be alleviated by stopping the trillions going to a few peoples folly.

This is the point at which some scientists become part of a cult, this is where the blind faith in science becomes the same as religious fervour, they cannot see beyond their beliefs to face reality and focus on the life in the future rather than existence right now. 

Beyond putting people into and out of space and feeding the egos and pockets of Musk and his mates what has SPacex actually achieved?  

You know they don't burn diesel right?