The awkward Celtic truth made clear as day by Brendan Rodgers' Leicester team sheet - Keith Jackson

[Stoopid]

32 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 

As I pointed out though, people across the globe follow both Old Firm sides for reasons other than footballing success. I came across a Celtic club in Dubrovnik on holiday once. Why? Croatia's a Catholic country and some football fans there like to associate with that aspect of Celtic's image. They're a "second club" for loads of people because of what they represent rahter than whether they're any good in a European context.

 

Ever been to an "Irish bar" abroad which didn't have any Celtic merch in?

Absolutely. They're the in-house team for Irish Catholicism,  and by extension Irish republicanism all over the world. 

The John F Kennedy club in Highfields (long gone) had pictures of the team along with JFK and the Pope (of course), the holy trinity of Irish nationalism at the time. Nothing particularly to do with football. 

[Gubbins]

1 hour ago, Stoopid said:

Absolutely. They're the in-house team for Irish Catholicism,  and by extension Irish republicanism all over the world. 

The John F Kennedy club in Highfields (long gone) had pictures of the team along with JFK and the Pope (of course), the holy trinity of Irish nationalism at the time. Nothing particularly to do with football. 

I think theres a world of difference though between this and say the global foreign fan base of say Madrid or Man utd. They will watch games on the TV, buy overpriced merch, argue with fans of other teams on the internet and genuinely believe that they are a proper fan as opposed to a gloryhunter never likely to go to a game. I doubt many non irish/scottish foreigners who associate with Celtic on some vague religious grounds could tell you who half the team are or who their previous match was against. That would only change with a Liverpool/Arsenal level of success.

[Stoopid]

25 minutes ago, Gubbins said:

I think theres a world of difference though between this and say the global foreign fan base of say Madrid or Man utd. They will watch games on the TV, buy overpriced merch, argue with fans of other teams on the internet and genuinely believe that they are a proper fan as opposed to a gloryhunter never likely to go to a game. I doubt many non irish/scottish foreigners who associate with Celtic on some vague religious grounds could tell you who half the team are or who their previous match was against. That would only change with a Liverpool/Arsenal level of success.

Agreed, there's more to the Celtic 'brand' than just football. 

The Irish diaspora is, of course,  huge and Celtic symbolises that. 

Though in my experience (mainly in Irish bars in the USA) lots of people still take a close interest in their fortunes. 

But yeah, their reach to non-Irish global fans has no doubt diminished,  even before their recent woes with poor old Lenny. 

Though many in my family support them, I never liked nationalism,  and that aspect of their appeal turned me off. Anyway, I grew up in Leicester, so supported the local team. As - of course - I should. 

Took plenty of stick over the years. Not so much now. 

Can't imagine why. 

[King of Gipsy Lane]

6 hours ago, Gubbins said:

Realistically though this 'global' fanbase consists nearly exclusively of irish and scottish ex Pat's. No way are there supporters clubs in Malaysia or Dubai filled with native born Celtic fans. And this research (with a wildly over the top final estimation) is from 2003. Even if it is remotely accurate Celtic have achieved nothing globally in the last 17 years. Fan bases from abroad follow the glory and bar a single win against Barcelona Celtic dont provide any.

And ??? The Irish Dollar alone in America makes it a hugely powerful commercial base 
 

imagine if they were in the premier league they would explode in value 

 

Won’t happen and shouldn’t happen but we must respect other clubs 

 

 

[Gubbins]

3 hours ago, King of Gipsy Lane said:

And ??? The Irish Dollar alone in America makes it a hugely powerful commercial base 
 

imagine if they were in the premier league they would explode in value 

 

Won’t happen and shouldn’t happen but we must respect other clubs 

 

 

But if that huge US commercial base only comes into play if they are in the prem,  which as you say wont happen, then it's absolutely meaningless.  

We and every English club have a huge potential commercial base as well but it involves winning the prem multiple times in a short space of time so again its meaningless.

As of right now they dont have a massive global following as it's based on having huge numbers of glory hunters. The irish catholic thing I'm sure gives them some recognition abroad but clearly doesnt have that much weight financially without hefty success or theyd have more money to throw about. 

[Blue ROI]

6 hours ago, Stoopid said:

Agreed, there's more to the Celtic 'brand' than just football. 

The Irish diaspora is, of course,  huge and Celtic symbolises that. 

Though in my experience (mainly in Irish bars in the USA) lots of people still take a close interest in their fortunes. 

But yeah, their reach to non-Irish global fans has no doubt diminished,  even before their recent woes with poor old Lenny. 

Though many in my family support them, I never liked nationalism,  and that aspect of their appeal turned me off. Anyway, I grew up in Leicester, so supported the local team. As - of course - I should. 

Took plenty of stick over the years. Not so much now. 

Can't imagine why. 

Living in the Republic I'd say interest in Celtic has never been as low as it is now.

 

During the MON era from 2001-06 Celtic was a big deal as they gained the upper hand. The European nights were fairly memorable and they did claim some big wins. The weeknight games brought huge crowds of students down to pubs. 

 

Since beating Barca in 2012 they have almost become an irrelevance. The fall of Rangers didn't help. People going round in Celtic tops was common. Now you would rarely see it.

 

One of my friends has remained loyal to the cause but the lack of competitiveness has had a detrimental effect on Scottish Football and The Premier League's profile has soared. If I'm reading through texts on WhatsApp Groups its all Premier League and Fantasy Football. Nowhere does Celtic feature.

 

Sad but I'd say there's lots of people in their Early 20s that have no interest in them.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

On 08/02/2021 at 12:09, Alan Frost said:

About the so called "guff". Sorry delay in replying, LCFC 's fortunes were devouring most of my allowed posts.

 

1/ Rangers and Celtic have higher home attendances . Their gate receipts might be high .Unfortunately even the Scottish PL will not let them ,even Rangers, play all their games at home. They have to play half their games away in tiny stadia compared with EPL clubs . I have no idea of how gate receipts are distributed but I assumed that the away club receives less than the home club. The season ticket picture is as you say although I think Rangers season ticket revenue which Craig "Crook" used to buy the club for peanuts is still the subject of various court actions . I have no idea where C and R figure in the various worlds wealthiest clubs lists,  I only look down as far as Leicester (we are usually around 20th, I think slightly higher at the moment, where we are dwarfed by both Manchesters ,Chelsea. Spurs Liverpool and Arsenal . We are slowly gaining ground. You'd have to tell me where C and R were, fairly well up I should think but then they probably would be if they didn't play football at all.

 

2/ Per population you are probably correct. I did not include those words.

 

3/ My words following said something like just as  Celtic recovered Rangers started drowning or words to that effect. Both clubs got ECL income every two years on average , despite biannual participation in the ECL neither club usually lasts until Christmas. Dropping into the EFL before elimination. Despite this money Celtic went within minutes of total bankruptcy in the mid nineties , Sam McGinn ? stepping in at the last moment to save them. As Celtic were recovering Rangers went worse than bankrupt with the tax authorites owed millions still .  I think that in the last 100 seasons  all other clubs combined have won Scotlands top division 19 times Rangers and Celtic ,the old firm taking the rest (81). The total statistics are even worse. Had the clubs been in England in the PL they probably would have ceased to exist had PL and FA rules  and company law been applied . Thats probably true in Scotland too but when so much of professional soccer is wrapped up in just two clubs,rules were bent. Of course Tax Law can't be so easily bent and Rangers and the tax authorities are still in dispute as far as I know ,the only certainty being they still owe millions.

The only other city of any size ,Edinburgh has two clubs Hibs and Hearts teetering  on bankruptcy regularly. I can't remember which one is currently in trouble but I think its Hearts. They were certainly offering meals in a tent on the pitch during the covid crisis not long ago to raise funds.

 

4/ Virgil van Dijk when he played for Celtic was a £1. 4 m player . He went to Celtic ,I think from a Dutch club who were trying to get rid (he had a lot of medical problems). They got no offers despite asking around Dutch clubs until Celtic offered. He did well at Celtic ( they were I think then absolute rulers of football in Scotland . Rangers having been relegated to the 4th tier by a combinattion of legal and financial problems were preoccupied in clawing their way back to the  PL, a 4-5 year job). Eventually he became valued at £14 m which Saints paid for him and due to their development of him and probably the overcoming of his medical problems he became the star player Liverpool have to day. I'm not sure who Andy Robertson is ,Roberts and Robertson are common names in football.  He's a good player ,if he's the Liverpool defender, and some no doubt might include him among the world's best. England 's PL currently has a dearth of good defenders. At RB probably 20 players and at LB slightly , very slightly less. At LCFC we have 4 possibly 6 defenders who could be described as considered by many  among the best in the world at their position. Note I  mentioned Larssen as a "player" in Scottish football , neither Robertson or Van Dijk are playing in Scxottish football and certainly Van Dijk only touched Scotland briefly between Holland and England, as a developing player.

 

I presume you are Scottish. As I said when I went to Scotland about 50 years ago I  preferred to watch Scottish football. Aberdeen and Dundee United were challenging the old firm and Scotland had more good ball players which I prefer to watch. Sadly as everyone over fifty will know Scottish football has plumbed many ,many lows since then although I am glad to see the National team is definitely on the rise in the last year .

 

Before accusing anyone of writing guff you should check your facts. before writing a load of  guff . That includes reading what is actually written .  As I said early in my post I don't know it all regarding Scottish football. I now don't follow it at all except occasionally checking the Celtic/Rangers matches just as I check out the English Championship matches. When I moved to Scotland the country, which could always give England a good match was alive with football chat and meant a lot to the nation. Living there now the only conversations one would have were concerned with "whats gone wrong with Scottish football ?". Its been the subject of so many STV programs .If you visit Scotland still you must have noticed how football has dropped down the list of conversational subjects.

Sorry but both of your posts are absolute nonsense

 

There's too much for me to go through to even try and begin to pick it apart.

 

A football fan who doesn't know who Andy Robertson is and 'Henrek Larsen'

 

Sam McGinn

 

[Muzzy_Larsson]

20 hours ago, Sly said:

I see Celtic / Rangers in the same way I see other former big European clubs like Galatasaray, Ajax, Marseille, AC Milan, Roma, Inter, Parma, Nottingham Forest, Benfica, Goteborg, Valencia etc

 

When they were good, they were great. 
 

However the football world has changed and is now largely dominated by 10 clubs at best, plus the Premier League teams. Without the commercial revenue, they can’t compete with mid to bottom end Premier League clubs. 
 

Real Madrid have been the constant for years. 
 

If you were to draw up the current top 50 teams in European football. Would those two feature? 
 

Without that they’re just another Newcastle United at best (fanatical fan base), or a Red Star Belgrade. 
 

I’d love to see a league cup revamped though and include Scottish, Irish and Welsh teams too. 

This is about the size of it. I'm loathed to use the term 'big club' as I feel it's such a misnomer nowadays but if I do Celtic are of course historically a big club, have a global fan base, etc, etc.

 

How much that matters now in modern football I'm not so sure. The sole barometer for success in football nowadays is typically how much money you can generate or throw at building a team/club (see Chelsea, Man City, PSG, etc).

 

With the brand that is the premier league we can't compete with any club that is in it, purely by association and the wealth that comes with it. What is it £100m in TV money for winning the EPL versus £2.5m for winning the SPFL. It's daft to even compare Celtic with any EPL clubs when you think about it.

[Muzzy_Larsson]

On 08/02/2021 at 13:33, Foxy-Lady said:

Just a small point...

 

Your points are well made and informative but i think the statistic you are using about the number of people per population attending games in Scotland is heavily distorted by the Rangers & Celtic attendances.

This is probably the case in most countries but i doubt there are many other countries where if you removed attendances for all matches excluding the Top 2 supported teams you would see such a dramatic fall in the number of attendees per population. I doubt whether either of the 2 professional clubs in my home city of edinburgh would survive for long financially without gate receipts from celtic and rangers fixtures.

In the PL and Bundesliga, most stadiums are full regardless of who is playing....that is definitely NOT the case in Scottish football

 

Scottish football is dying below the old firm (both of whom are also dependent upon each other for financial sustainability!) and most SPL clubs are no better supported or financially secure than lower league and non-league clubs in England.....and those below the SPL are effectively semi-amateur teams now.

 

None of this is relevant to this forum in any way but just thought id add a bit of context for you....

 

Tbh this has been the case since the 80's and will always be the case. As long as Celtic and Rangers stick around these clubs will continue to limp on though.

[King of Gipsy Lane]

2 hours ago, Gubbins said:

But if that huge US commercial base only comes into play if they are in the prem,  which as you say wont happen, then it's absolutely meaningless.  

We and every English club have a huge potential commercial base as well but it involves winning the prem multiple times in a short space of time so again its meaningless.

As of right now they dont have a massive global following as it's based on having huge numbers of glory hunters. The irish catholic thing I'm sure gives them some recognition abroad but clearly doesnt have that much weight financially without hefty success or theyd have more money to throw about. 

TV deals matter but if you think a club like West Brom for example is a bigger club than Celtic or Ranger because they have cash your deluded 🤣🤣🤣 money isn’t what makes a club BIG ! History and fan base does, Rangers and Celtic have a massive history, European Cup winners Celtic and both have millions and millions of fans globally they are unable to make that match TV revenues in England etc... but they are still a MASSIVE club

 

They harbour hopes of joining south of the border both clubs do and if they did many many clubs would not be able to match them very very quickly , which is why they are excluded 
 

when the European Elite Super league comes (and it will) clubs like ours will soon understand that being “big” cash clubs means nothing to the rest of the elite clubs and we might just understand what it is like to be a Celtic or Ranger