US Presidential Election 2024

[grobyfox1990]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Hillary (and Trump, and Tate, and SYL) should be (mostly) free to spout whatever comes out of their mouths ("fire in a crowded theatre" argument aside).

 

When people listen to it and act upon it, that's when they should be held accountable. Trump's meltdown on Twitter over the 2020 election was just amusing right up to the point that his supporters stormed the Capitol on his (implicit) instructions.

 

But following this line of argument, I would agree you either regulate everyone in terms of such speech, or no one.

 

In any case, as per above, this false equivalence is hardly the only reason Trump should be nowhere near office anyway.

Ok sure and drawing the line is where we disagree I guess. I am sure we agree Tate and Yaxley are certain morons. But I think when such important people like Hilary and Trump start questioning our democracy, they should be immediately put in a box with action following.

[Sir Steve Howard]

4 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

What's your point?

It's highly ironic that people were shouting about Russian interference in 2016 when the US have been at it just as much.

Constant meddling in and around Russia's 'near abroad', such as Ukraine, Georgia in recent times.

[HighPeakFox]

Just now, Sir Steve Howard said:

It's highly ironic that people were shouting about Russian interference in 2016 when the US have been at it just as much.

Constant meddling in and around Russia's 'near abroad', such as Ukraine, Georgia in recent times.

Does it therefore prevent it having happened in their own country, or are you just deflecting?

[Sir Steve Howard]

1 minute ago, HighPeakFox said:

Does it therefore prevent it having happened in their own country, or are you just deflecting?

I'm not sure I follow. I'm not denying interference, it's everywhere.

The left-leaning moderators at the Trump-Harris debate were interfering in elections as they fact checked Trump repeatedly yet failed to fact check Kamala once.

[leicsmac]

... perhaps everyone having their own version of fact delivered to them ( often in spite of what facts actually exist) isn't the best idea for society going forward?

 

In any case, foreign and economic policy are hardly the only areas that matter right now, or even the most important.

[HighPeakFox]

8 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

I'm not sure I follow. I'm not denying interference, it's everywhere.

The left-leaning moderators at the Trump-Harris debate were interfering in elections as they fact checked Trump repeatedly yet failed to fact check Kamala once.

It is fairly clear, from what you are saying in this thread, that you get your information via very different sources to me, and see the world through a very different lens. The false equivalence in this thread is absolutely mind-blowing.

[Sir Steve Howard]

52 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Your reasoning is outrageous. Fundamentally a country is allowed the right to self-determination, those countries have the right to choose to join NATO, not be dictated to by an autocrat who has eroded his country’s democracy. With the threat of invasion, or actual invasion.
Our country, the US, the West, face an existential threat from Russia. They have meddled in and are continuing to meddle in the US and over here, undermining democracy. By effectively helping to promote candidates who are anti intellectual, by whipping up the working class over nonsense culture wars. I am a very socially conservative person but even I realise that culture war stuff should be nowhere near a salient election issue.

Johnson was a cretin but his Russia response was spot on. Biden may have messed up on Gaza, however his Russia response has been outstanding. He has always recognised the threat that Putin poses.
Do not side with the autocrat and do not side with the politician who admires the autocrat. 

 

36 minutes ago, bovril said:

It's interesting that a lot of people who defend Russia's actions are also quite nationalistic and very concerned about defending traditional (European) values and upholding sovereignty. And yet you have a European country that is bravely fighting to protect its own culture, sovereignty and territory against a Russian army containing thousands of conscripts from Asia, and they won't defend it.

Ukraine as a whole did not want to join NATO though.

Look through any Ukrainian election in recent times, there is a dramatic East-West split between Russian and European friendly candidate support.

The Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts Russia has invaded are/were comprised of a huge number of Russians.

 

The anti intellectual comment is sneering and I would argue unfounded. Who are you lobbing in this bucket, Orban, Le Pen?

[Sir Steve Howard]

2 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

It is fairly clear, from what you are saying in this thread, that you get your information via very different sources to me, and see the world through a very different lens. The false equivalence in this thread is absolutely mind-blowing.

I try to get information from a wide range of sources and draw my own opinions. Evidently they differ from yours. I don't have a Putin poster on my wall and a Trump bumper sticker on my pick up truck, I just think that the overall rhetoric on here of the upcoming election being a battle of good vs evil is a bit basic.

[Sir Steve Howard]

For what it's worth, Russian officials were initially buoyant when Trump was elected in 2016 but he went on to impose some of the harshest sanctions on them, so the idea of him being a Putin apologist doesn't wash with me.

[grobyfox1990]

3 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

It is fairly clear, from what you are saying in this thread, that you get your information via very different sources to me, and see the world through a very different lens. The false equivalence in this thread is absolutely mind-blowing.

Election interference by various sources is not false equivalence, multiple nations engage in it via soft and hard methods for a variety of reasons. We have our very own Farage and Labour members doing it. Although of course Russian methods have been proven in a court of law. What is mind-blowing in this thread is the number of posts suggesting a second Trump term precipitates the end of civilisation. I don't know how far down the media rabbithole you have to be to believe that,  but I'd seriously suggest the posters need professional help to survive in our modern world. That being said it could all be Phil Bowman with these exaggerated and overblown posts as I can only seen the usernames of Leicmac when quoting my post.

[grobyfox1990]

4 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

I try to get information from a wide range of sources and draw my own opinions. Evidently they differ from yours. I don't have a Putin poster on my wall and a Trump bumper sticker on my pick up truck, I just think that the overall rhetoric on here of the upcoming election being a battle of good vs evil is a bit basic.

Basic is the word. Listen to what the candidates are saying, read their policy intentions and assess what they've done in their previous terms. Life will not end on Nov 5 Phil Bowman.

[Sir Steve Howard]

11 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

It is fairly clear, from what you are saying in this thread, that you get your information via very different sources to me, and see the world through a very different lens. The false equivalence in this thread is absolutely mind-blowing.

A large number of politicians from the UK have flown over to do door-knocking and campaigning for Harris in Pennsylvania. Is this false equivalence or election interfering by our very own country? Does it only work if you're 'interfering' on behalf of the candidate you don't like?

[bovril]

5 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

For what it's worth, Russian officials were initially buoyant when Trump was elected in 2016 but he went on to impose some of the harshest sanctions on them, so the idea of him being a Putin apologist doesn't wash with me.

Sounds a bit like he poked the bear

[HighPeakFox]

Just now, Sir Steve Howard said:

A large number of politicians from the UK have flown over to do door-knocking and campaigning for Harris in Pennsylvania. Is this false equivalence or election interfering by our very own country? Does it only work if you're 'interfering' on behalf of the candidate you don't like?

There it is, right there - that IS  false equivalence.

[Sir Steve Howard]

Just now, bovril said:

Sounds a bit like he poked the bear

Haha, personally I thought it was an apt analogy given the bear being synonymous with Russia

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

 

Ukraine as a whole did not want to join NATO though.

Look through any Ukrainian election in recent times, there is a dramatic East-West split between Russian and European friendly candidate support.

The Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts Russia has invaded are/were comprised of a huge number of Russians.

 

The anti intellectual comment is sneering and I would argue unfounded. Who are you lobbing in this bucket, Orban, Le Pen?

Speaking personally, I would say anyone who pursues nationalism the way they and some other leaders do given history shows rather clearly where that ends is at least rather short sighted, and at most willing to see the world burn of they can be lord of the ashes.

 

Whether that's "anti-intellectual" or not is up to the beholder, clearly.

[Sir Steve Howard]

3 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

There it is, right there - that IS  false equivalence.

Looks like we've come to the end of the reasoned conversation.

[Sir Steve Howard]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Speaking personally, I would say anyone who pursues nationalism the way they and some other leaders do given history shows rather clearly where that ends is at least rather short sighted, and at most willing to see the world burn of they can be lord of the ashes.

 

Whether that's "anti-intellectual" or not is up to the beholder, clearly.

Also speaking personally, I prefer Orban's 'nationalistic' approach of refusing to permit mass migration and instead using Government incentives to allow the native population to afford having children.

BBC article this week detailing how native fertility rates in the UK are well and truly in the toilet.

[bovril]

4 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

Also speaking personally, I prefer Orban's 'nationalistic' approach of refusing to permit mass migration and instead using Government incentives to allow the native population to afford having children.

I don't really pay attention to these things but I think it hasn't worked? 

[Sir Steve Howard]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

I don't really pay attention to these things but I think it hasn't worked? 

Hungary's fertility rate in 2023 was 1.58, which puts it upper-mid table within Europe but still lower than the 'replacement' number of 2.1

Hard to say how much said incentives have contributed to this though?

 

The anti immigration tactic seems to be working as planned.

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

Hungary's fertility rate in 2023 was 1.58, which puts it upper-mid table within Europe but still lower than the 'replacement' number of 2.1

Hard to say how much said incentives have contributed to this though?

 

The anti immigration tactic seems to be working as planned.

It's fallen again apparently. 

https://fortune.com/europe/2024/08/19/hungary-offered-e30000-to-couples-having-3-kids-but-its-birth-rate-has-still-fallen-to-a-record-monthly-low/

 

I heard a lot when I lived in Eastern Europe how E European countries were more hardline on immigration and how this was working, but the fact is most immigrants don't want to move to those countries, although that is changing very slowly. 

[leicsmac]

21 minutes ago, Sir Steve Howard said:

Also speaking personally, I prefer Orban's 'nationalistic' approach of refusing to permit mass migration and instead using Government incentives to allow the native population to afford having children.

BBC article this week detailing how native fertility rates in the UK are well and truly in the toilet.

Traditional closed borders "X first" nationalism of that type simply won't survive the pressures on our species caused by resource scarcity and population growth that are coming.

 

That only ends Mad Max into style unless we face such problems as a species, IMO.

[LiberalFox]

I struggle to see how Kamala Harris wins the election. Biden only narrowly won last time out. 

 

I've heard anecdotal evidence that people are switching to Trump in small numbers citing economic concerns and small numbers on the left are planning to protest by either not voting or voting for a no hoper.

 

I haven't heard a single person say they are switching to Dem based on Trump's legal issues. 

 

This would be enough to reverse the Dem gains last time out and deliver a similar result to 2016.

 

Would be interested in why there would be a different outcome. 

 

 

 

 

[Dr The Singh]

I work with alot of yanks and just recently have come from there.  What surprised me was how many ethnic groups support Trump, but there are so many parrelels between us and them.  2 biggest reasons, immigration and expense.  They relate both together, for example, so many latino's are having to move from Miami to other areas because immigration has made cheap housing expensive and increase supply of cheap labour.  

 

The global economy and inflation they seem to believe Trump would have handled it alot better.  

 

So just like the conservatives of the UK, the democrats are seen as poor termers.

 

 

[leicsmac]

42 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

I work with alot of yanks and just recently have come from there.  What surprised me was how many ethnic groups support Trump, but there are so many parrelels between us and them.  2 biggest reasons, immigration and expense.  They relate both together, for example, so many latino's are having to move from Miami to other areas because immigration has made cheap housing expensive and increase supply of cheap labour.  

 

The global economy and inflation they seem to believe Trump would have handled it alot better.  

 

So just like the conservatives of the UK, the democrats are seen as poor termers.

 

 

Which is rather sad considering that people like Hinchcliffe are saying what Trump and the Repubs really think of such ethnic groups and they'll turn on them as soon as they stop being useful for them to get power.