Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Wales has been part of England since 1284 AD. It's absurd that when it comes to international football the UK has been chopped up into so many little bits. Even if you could make a case for Scotland and Northern Ireland having their own 'national' teams, it's completely bewildering that Wales, which is nothing more than an English county just like Leicestershire or Essex, should compete as a nation in UEFA and FIFA competitions. You're either being intentionally provocative or really, really stupid. For a start, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England are all nations in their own right. Recognised culturually (which is a bit of a joke for the English, I mean.. what culture?), socially, historically and in terms of language. In terms of law, Wales was, you are correct (though not by date) part of one legal term "England and Wales" from 1535 - when the Law in Wales act was passed (rendering all law in England, by default, law in Wales thus essentially making them one legal entity), until 1967 when it was repealed. The only difference between Ireland and Scotland / Wales is law. Legally two are entities of a unitary state that politically unifies four recognised countries. Or as a more sarcastic friend of mine put it: Of course you'r right. - Everyone knows that Essex has it's own language, spoken by over 600,000 people - We all remeber when Essex won that Grand Slam, and missed out on World Cup qualification by playing poorly against Austria, Poland and Aserjaiban. - And of course history is filled with Leicestershire historical heroes like Owain Glyndwr, Llewelyn the Last, Madog ap Owain Gwynedd, LLywelyn Fawr, Macsen Wledig, Hywel Dda, Rhodri Fawr, Dewi Sant - most of whom led their country. - And what about the biggest travelling cultural festival in Europe (The National Eisteddfod) and the biggest youth festival in Europe (the Urdd Eisteddfod)? What about the largest youth organisation in Europe (The Urdd)? Aren't they in Essex too, conducted wholly in the local language? - And I must say I love hearing Leicestershire sing their NATIONAL Anthem, waving their NATIONAL flag, in their NATIONAL Stadium, in front of their NATIONAL team, in their NATIONAL Capital, just a stone throw away from their NATIONAL Museum, NATIONAL History Museum and NATIONAL Assembly and an hour or two away from their NATIONAL Library, NATIONAL Botanic Gardens, NATIONAL Coal Museum, NATIONAL Showcaves, NATIONAL Pool and NATIONAL Watersports Centre. After the game they can go see their NATIONAL Opera or their NATIONAL Orchestra (see a link here?) Comparing Wales to Essex and Leicestershire is not only offensive and bigoted, it is also unbelievably ill-informed, stupid and not based on facts. The only places Wales can be compared to is England and Scotland (not the NI, different history), all of them are sepate countries and nations, united under one political entity (hence the name UNITED Kingdom). If you don't want to be proud of your COUNTRY, and would rather pledge your alliegence to you politcal entity, so be it. Just don't try and force it on those of us who are proud of our nations. Edit: Oh and PS, the Welsh Football Association is the third oldest football association in the world. Which means, even at the peak of English bigotry, Wales was still deemed it's own unique nation (along with Scotland and Ireland) and considered able to start it's own national association for the government of football. Edit: P, PS: Just because you want Earnie and Giggsy playing for England, no need to take it out on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC UK Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 End of the day with all the jargon talk out the way, Scotland Wales and England is all in the same country, genius i know. To me that is England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 End of the day with all the jargon talk out the way, Scotland Wales and England is all in the same country, genius i know. To me that is England. Hate to disappoint you, bucko, but "England" is about as legally officially as "Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland" by your own argument. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is the correct term and no-where in there does it mention England. England is just another member state of the entity. Now it happens to be the largest geographically, yes, so of course it has the most representitive bodies in the houses of parliament and yes geographically that building is in England. But England is as much a free nation, a unique country, an individual state as any other home nation. Wales belongs to England as much as England belongs to, say, Northern Ireland. So before you belittle Wales, remember you're doing your own country a little injustice too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC UK Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Hate to disappoint you, bucko, but "England" is about as legally officially as "Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland" by your own argument. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is the correct term and no-where in there does it mention England. England is just another member state of the entity. Now it happens to be the largest geographically, yes, so of course it has the most representitive bodies in the houses of parliament and yes geographically that building is in England. But England is as much a free nation, a unique country, an individual state as any other home nation. Wales belongs to England as much as England belongs to, say, Northern Ireland. So before you belittle Wales, remember you're doing your own country a little injustice too. Bucko.. England is the most populous Home Nation of the United Kingdom. It accounts for more than 83% of the total UK population, occupies most of the southern two-thirds of the island of Great Britain and shares land borders with Scotland to the north and Wales to the west. Elsewhere, it is bordered by the North Sea, Irish Sea, Atlantic Ocean and English Channel. England is named after the Angles, one of a number of Germanic tribes believed to have originated in Angeln in Northern Germany, who settled in England in the 5th and 6th centuries. This is also the origin of its Latin name Anglia. It has not had a distinct political identity since 1707, when the Kingdom of Great Britain was established as a unified political entity; however, it has a legal identity separate from those of Scotland and Northern Ireland, as part of the entity "England and Wales". England's largest city, London, is also the capital of the United Kingdom. As i said in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Well in the eyes of the entire nations of Scotland, NI and Wales, you can have all the political legislation you want - we're still free. We've the history, the language, the identity and the pride. All over the globe there are former nations fighting and campaigning for political freedom and global recognition as a unique entity. Every few years a new one arises and a new one establishes itself. Our time will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC UK Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Well in the eyes of the entire nations of Scotland, NI and Wales, you can have all the political legislation you want - we're still free. We've the history, the language, the identity and the pride. All over the globe there are former nations fighting and campaigning for political freedom and global recognition as a unique entity. Every few years a new one arises and a new one establishes itself. Our time will come. good luck to ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Harpic Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Edit: P, PS: Just because you want Earnie and Giggsy playing for England, no need to take it out on us. Be honest, wouldn't you rather be supporting a team who are ranked as one of the best in the world than a team which has consistently been a laughing stock of the european game? It's in your interests to support an England football team that, like our cricket team correctly does, incorporates Welsh players into it. It would give you an excuse to support a national side who can play with the big boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Wouldn't you rather support a succesful, powerful club like Chelsea than a weak, underperforming side like Leicester? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC UK Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Wouldn't you rather support a succesful, powerful club like Chelsea than a weak, underperforming side like Leicester? Why are you on this forum? it is clear you are not a city fan but just hear to waffle on about that small town called Wales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 I was making a point. I am a Leicester fan, yes, my point was - why is it essential to support a succesful football team that wins everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Be honest, wouldn't you rather be supporting a team who are ranked as one of the best in the world than a team which has consistently been a laughing stock of the european game? It's in your interests to support an England football team that, like our cricket team correctly does, incorporates Welsh players into it. It would give you an excuse to support a national side who can play with the big boys. I like the way you ignored the rest of the post and quote that, personally I think you are doing the Welsh a diservice but maybe im bias. Your views are nothing but political, which is fine but you then make yourself look silly by ignoring the actual FACTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Harpic Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Wouldn't you rather support a succesful, powerful club like Chelsea than a weak, underperforming side like Leicester? That's the thing. Supporting a world power like England kind of balances out the day-to-day frustrations of being a City fan. It's no co-incidence that the flags you see at England matches generally have non-entities like Carlisle, Forest and, yes, Leicester City written on them. But to support both City and Wales... Ouch. I feel for ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 I feel for me, too. I've had season tickets for Welsh international qualifiers for the last two campaigns and will be going off to get my hopes shattered this year again. But, hey, at least I'll get to see Tomas Rosicky grace the temple grass and Earnie beat the Germans again. \o/ Cymru will not yield. \o/ P, p, ps: At least our stadium works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC UK Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 I was making a point. I am a Leicester fan, yes, my point was - why is it essential to support a succesful football team that wins everything? Who said it is essential? I'm proud to be supporting Leicester, although there poor league positioning this season the relegation battle was a tense few weeks until things seemed brighter, teetering around relegation was more intruiging then hanging around 9th or 10th all season if you get my drift. Sorry about the city fan comment btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 I was responding to Lemon Harpic who wrote, amongst other things: Be honest, wouldn't you rather be supporting a team who are ranked as one of the best in the world than a team which has consistently been a laughing stock of the european game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC UK Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 P, p, ps: At least our stadium works. Ouch. Oh well when it is built youl have to fill your ground with Vans Tropy finals or something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Haha I don't care whether the English FA put the FA Cup Final or the LDV Vans Trophy Final in Cardiff, it's all money going to the WRU so it's all good by me, tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Harpic Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Your views are nothing but political, which is fine but you then make yourself look silly by ignoring the actual FACTS. I'm not ignoring the actual FAC... I mean facts. The facts are that it is not history, language, identity and pride that makes a nation, but political and legal legislation (hence, Palestine is not internationally recognised as a country). Politically and legally Wales is part of England. The Welsh may not like it, but it is fact. Nations are political entities only. I actually know some people from north Wales, they sound completely English when they speak and for some reason hate people from south Wales. Who is to say that these people belong to the same 'nation' as SosbanFach but not to the same nation as you and I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC UK Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Haha I don't care whether the English FA put the FA Cup Final or the LDV Vans Trophy Final in Cardiff, it's all money going to the WRU so it's all good by me, tbh. Excactly, thats what am saying that will be no more when..............it......is.....finally...built... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 No, Wales and England are BOTH politically seperate but part of the United Kingdom and Great Britain and Northern Ireland, we've been over this. "England and Wales" is a term literally concerning law and only law coined because we share the same legal system, while the Scots have some variation on their laws. Nations are political entities only. Puh-lease that's just a poor excuse for an argument stemmed from the fact you've no culture and heritage to be proud of. You're entitled to believe that, but I expect you're in a minority - by expressing that opinion you're proclaiming yourself "British" and nothing else, that's fine by me but I'm sure there are a lot of English patriots that'll disagree with you. Problem is, the BNP have made it psychologically negative to be proud to be English and to wave the St. George's cross without feeling embarassed, otuside of match day. Which is a shame really. As for the North / South thing - yeah the folk from North Wales think they're "more Welsh" than those from the South because the language is stronger there and it's far more rural, but the rivalry's only the same as the North and South of England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Honcho Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Be honest, wouldn't you rather be supporting a team who are ranked as one of the best in the world than a team which has consistently been a laughing stock of the european game? It's in your interests to support an England football team that, like our cricket team correctly does, incorporates Welsh players into it. It would give you an excuse to support a national side who can play with the big boys. Oh so it's your Cricket team now is it? I thought it came under the umbrella of The England and Wales Cricket Board which by the way is run by David Morgan a Welshman!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syko Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 so to break it all up but what happened to talking about LEE TRUNDLE? i'm sure thats that topic i clicked on not lets argue about Wales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 Scouse wears insulting t-shirt. Soul Crew go mad. Overtly political correctness takes over. Swansea appologise. Scouse probably gets ban. The end. It really has been greatly blown out of proportion. And so what, the thread went off-topic. The thread's a conversation. Conversations go off topic, especially the topic's boring to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 I'm not ignoring the actual FAC... I mean facts. The facts are that it is not history, language, identity and pride that makes a nation, but political and legal legislation (hence, Palestine is not internationally recognised as a country). Politically and legally Wales is part of England. The Welsh may not like it, but it is fact. Nations are political entities only. I actually know some people from north Wales, they sound completely English when they speak and for some reason hate people from south Wales. Who is to say that these people belong to the same 'nation' as SosbanFach but not to the same nation as you and I? To be fair you dont actually know which nationality I am. Im not sure why you are getting so upset with Wales being a country but maybe its best if you go back to saying how Gretna dont deserve any plaudits because they are bankrolled, as you seem to have more idea about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gené and Tonic Posted 4 April 2006 Share Posted 4 April 2006 so...back to Lee Trundle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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