Lee Trundle

[Katy]

so...back to Lee Trundle

Hes a perv anyway

[Head Honcho]

To be fair you dont actually know which nationality I am. Im not sure why you are getting so upset with Wales being a country but maybe its best if you go back to saying how Gretna dont deserve any plaudits because they are bankrolled, as you seem to have more idea about that.

You could in fact argue that Wales is more of a country than England in so much as they have their own Government.

England only have a Parliament which is for the whole of the U.K.

................but thats another story

[Katy]

You could in fact argue that Wales is more of a country than England in so much as they have their own Government.

England only have a Parliament which is for the whole of the U.K.

................but thats another story

Quite! but im gerrin a bit bored of this now, im sure someone will come back and argue with their own shadow. lush anyone?

[LCFC UK]

You could in fact argue that Wales is more of a country than England in so much as they have their own Government.

................but thats another story

Dont make me laugh!!

Quite! but im gerrin a bit bored of this now, im sure someone will come back and argue with their own shadow. lush anyone?

[Sparky]

You're either being intentionally provocative or really, really stupid. For a start, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England are all nations in their own right. Recognised culturually (which is a bit of a joke for the English, I mean.. what culture?), socially, historically and in terms of language. In terms of law, Wales was, you are correct (though not by date) part of one legal term "England and Wales" from 1535 - when the Law in Wales act was passed (rendering all law in England, by default, law in Wales thus essentially making them one legal entity), until 1967 when it was repealed.

The only difference between Ireland and Scotland / Wales is law. Legally two are entities of a unitary state that politically unifies four recognised countries.

Or as a more sarcastic friend of mine put it:

Of course you'r right.

- Everyone knows that Essex has it's own language, spoken by over 600,000 people

- We all remeber when Essex won that Grand Slam, and missed out on World Cup qualification by playing poorly against Austria, Poland and Aserjaiban.

- And of course history is filled with Leicestershire historical heroes like Owain Glyndwr, Llewelyn the Last, Madog ap Owain Gwynedd, LLywelyn Fawr, Macsen Wledig, Hywel Dda, Rhodri Fawr, Dewi Sant - most of whom led their country.

- And what about the biggest travelling cultural festival in Europe (The National Eisteddfod) and the biggest youth festival in Europe (the Urdd Eisteddfod)? What about the largest youth organisation in Europe (The Urdd)? Aren't they in Essex too, conducted wholly in the local language?

- And I must say I love hearing Leicestershire sing their NATIONAL Anthem, waving their NATIONAL flag, in their NATIONAL Stadium, in front of their NATIONAL team, in their NATIONAL Capital, just a stone throw away from their NATIONAL Museum, NATIONAL History Museum and NATIONAL Assembly and an hour or two away from their NATIONAL Library, NATIONAL Botanic Gardens, NATIONAL Coal Museum, NATIONAL Showcaves, NATIONAL Pool and NATIONAL Watersports Centre. After the game they can go see their NATIONAL Opera or their NATIONAL Orchestra (see a link here?)

Comparing Wales to Essex and Leicestershire is not only offensive and bigoted, it is also unbelievably ill-informed, stupid and not based on facts. The only places Wales can be compared to is England and Scotland (not the NI, different history), all of them are sepate countries and nations, united under one political entity (hence the name UNITED Kingdom).

If you don't want to be proud of your COUNTRY, and would rather pledge your alliegence to you politcal entity, so be it. Just don't try and force it on those of us who are proud of our nations.

Edit: Oh and PS, the Welsh Football Association is the third oldest football association in the world. Which means, even at the peak of English bigotry, Wales was still deemed it's own unique nation (along with Scotland and Ireland) and considered able to start it's own national association for the government of football.

Edit: P, PS: Just because you want Earnie and Giggsy playing for England, no need to take it out on us.

earnie may drive the fastest milk cart in the west but he wouldnt make the england blind squad

[LCFC UK]

earnie may drive the fastest milk cart in the west but he wouldnt make the england blind squad

Giggs is getting past it to

[Finnegan]

Giggs now, sure. But it was billed as one of the best players in the world at his peak. Simon Davies and Danny Gabbidon are probably good enough to make an England squad, too.

[Gené and Tonic]

Not Simon Davies or Gabbidon, but definately Giggs, and possibly Hartson as the fourth striker but I doubt it

[Finnegan]

Danny Gabbidon had the potential to be a great player. It may be a little late now, but given top level international experience a few years earlier and he'd have easily gotten a place in the England squad (were he English.) Ferdinand and Campbell are greatly over-rated, I'd rather Danny in my side over both. Certainly better than Wes Brown and Ledley King IMO. Simon Davies is a very versatile player in the midfield and I again I think he's better than England squadies such as Owen Hargreaves (Welsh ) and Michael Carrick, maybe Jenas too. I'm not saying they'd start, but they'd make the squad.

Hartson's too old even for us, really. You can say "when he was younger..." but when Hartson was younger you had Shearer and as much as I love Big John, he's no Alan Shearer.

[Sparky]

Danny Gabbidon had the potential to be a great player. It may be a little late now, but given top level international experience a few years earlier and he'd have easily gotten a place in the England squad (were he English.) Ferdinand and Campbell are greatly over-rated, I'd rather Danny in my side over both. Certainly better than Wes Brown and Ledley King IMO. Simon Davies is a very versatile player in the midfield and I again I think he's better than England squadies such as Owen Hargreaves (Welsh ) and Michael Carrick, maybe Jenas too. I'm not saying they'd start, but they'd make the squad.

Hartson's too old even for us, really. You can say "when he was younger..." but when Hartson was younger you had Shearer and as much as I love Big John, he's no Alan Shearer.

had davies in my dream team this year and hes done note for me !

[Finnegan]

Aye but Everton have had a disappointing yeah, bad move for him, tbh. I'd have stuck at Tottenham.

[Lemon Harpic]

You could in fact argue that Wales is more of a country than England in so much as they have their own Government.

England only have a Parliament which is for the whole of the U.K.

Britain needs fewer politicians, not more.

That the Scots and the Welsh have been duped into supporting more of these useless, self-serving parasites only shows that petty nationalism can be a dangerous thing.

The English can be pretty patriotic, especially around World Cup time, but I sincerely hope that we are too intelligent to support an English parliament. Our politicians already have enough tax-funded gravy trains to ride without creating another one.

[Lemon Harpic]

Puh-lease that's just a poor excuse for an argument stemmed from the fact you've no culture and heritage to be proud of.

It's true. how can we compete when Wales boasts the National Coal Museum?

[Finnegan]

Yeah because our most prestigous cultural past-time is Morris Dancing, isn't it?

Britain needs fewer politicians, not more.

That the Scots and the Welsh have been duped into supporting more of these useless, self-serving parasites only shows that petty nationalism can be a dangerous thing.

Ah but you see, this here is what we call an opinion. Backed by no fact or evidence. I have plenty of those myself, I personally believe Wales and Scotland would survive as individual entities the same as Ireland and that there'd be no negative to forming of the Republic of Wales. Can I prove it? No, it's just an opinion based only on simple logic.

At the end of the day, the argument was your claim that Wales isn't a nation. You were proved wrong, you are wrong and that's it. We even managed to find fairly friendly terms, don't ruin it by being more of a moron.

[Lemon Harpic]

Ah but you see, this here is what we call an opinion. Backed by no fact or evidence. I have plenty of those myself, I personally believe Wales and Scotland would survive as individual entities the same as Ireland and that there'd be no negative to forming of the Republic of Wales. Can I prove it? No, it's just an opinion based only on simple logic.

Maybe I'm wrong, and the Welsh assembly and Scottish parliaments are not just glorified town councils. I know that the Scottish parliament in particular has cost the people of Scotland a lot of money. I mean a lot. Has it been worth it or is it just another gravy train that nationalists have been fooled into accepting? I'd say the latter is true and that's why I don't want a parliament for England.

But if you think that your MWA's are giving you a valuable service, I can't stop you handing out your money to them.

At the end of the day, the argument was your claim that Wales isn't a nation. You were proved wrong

Not quite.

As I've said before, nations are political entities. That's why they are also known as nation-states. Wales' political status is that of a principality with a devolved assembly, not a fully fledged nation in it's own right.

We even managed to find fairly friendly terms, don't ruin it by being more of a moron.

In my own way, I was trying to be friendly. However I'm not someone who puts much stock in petty nationalism, which history has shown can be a destructive force (third reich, anyone?). So yeah, I will voice any criticism I may have about nationalists whether they come from Scotland, Wales or England. I make no apologies for doing so.

[Finnegan]

Your issue is with jingoism, not nationalism. Something that bothers me greatly, that you can't tell people you're a nationalist anymore because people get scared thanks to the names of various political movements. Does that mean we should all cynical of socialists because that's how the Nazi party started out?

[Lemon Harpic]

Does that mean we should all cynical of socialists because that's how the Nazi party started out?

You're talking rubbish, SosbanFach.

The German Worker's Party (which later became the Nazi party) was volkish (nationalist and racist) from the start. Would Adolf Hitler really have joined a socialist party?

[potter3]

He's beeen arrested, and someone called Tate, but they are on bail until the end of the season.

[filbertway]

How did talking about Trundle turn into a bitchfest of people arguing about whether wales is a country or not?

[Katy]

How did talking about Trundle turn into a bitchfest of people arguing about whether wales is a country or not?

Because your man harpic picked up on something I said about a Country's flag shouldnt be defacated - which it shouldnt whether he thinks Wales is a country or not, its still insulting. This seems to have been lost somewhere in the resulting stat fest

[Finnegan]

Nazism was the ideology held by the National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, commonly called NSDAP or the Nazi Party), which was led by its Führer (leader), Adolf Hitler. The word Nazism is most often used in connection with the government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945 (the "Third Reich"), and it is derived from the term National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus, often abbreviated NS). Adherents of the Nazi ideology held that the Aryan race were superior to other races, and they promoted Germanic racial supremacy and a strong, centrally governed state.

Sigh. Don't correct me when I'm right.

I don't have a problem with nationalism or socialism. I'd probably, if we're labeling here, call myself both - but my point is, in the context of nationalism, it's very hard to admit that these days because people instantly assume a racist. When in fact, extreme nationalism or "chauvenistic nationalism" is in fact jingoism while the literal definition of nationalism is simply:

na·tion·al·ism Pronunciation Key (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)

n.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

I've highlighted what I, personally, draw my beliefs from.

[Lemon Harpic]

Sigh. Don't correct me when I'm right.

I won't. But here, you are very, very wrong.

German Worker's Party

In 1919 Anton Drexler, Gottfried Feder and Dietrich Eckart formed the German Workers's Party (GPW) in Munich. The German Army was worried that it was a left-wing revolutionary group and sent Adolf Hitler, one of its education officers, to spy on the organization. Hitler discovered that the party's political ideas were similar to his own. He approved of Drexler's German nationalism and anti-Semitism but was unimpressed with the way the party was organized. Although there as a spy, Hitler could not restrain himself when a member made a point he disagreed with, and he stood up and made a passionate speech on the subject.

Anton Drexler was impressed with Hitler's abilities as an orator and invited him to join the party. At first Hitler was reluctant, but urged on by his commanding officer, Captain Karl Mayr, he eventually agreed. He was only the fifty-fourth person to join the German Workers's Party. Hitler was immediately asked to join the executive committee and was later appointed the party's propaganda manager.

In the next few weeks Hitler brought several members of his army into the party, including one of his commanding officers, Captain Ernst Roehm. The arrival of Roehm was an important development as he had access to the army political fund and was able to transfer some of the money into the GWP.

The German Workers's Party used some of this money to advertise their meetings. Adolf Hitler was often the main speaker and it was during this period that he developed the techniques that made him into such a persuasive orator.

Hitler's reputation as an orator grew and it soon became clear that he was the main reason why people were joining the party. This gave Hitler tremendous power within the organization as they knew they could not afford to lose him.

Adolf Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany.

Hitler, therefore redefined socialism by placing the word 'National' before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had "German blood". Jews and other "aliens" would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans should be brought to an end.

I don't have a problem with nationalism or socialism. I'd probably, if we're labeling here, call myself both.

So you're a National Socialist, then?

This makes your appalling lack of knowledge about Nazism even more confusing.

[filbertway]

Please tell me most of this has been copied and pasted and your'e not writing gigantic essays saying basically the same things?

[Lemon Harpic]

Please tell me most of this has been copied and pasted and your'e not writing gigantic essays saying basically the same things?

It was a lazy cut-and-paste job from me. I probably could have edited it to just the highlights that illustrate my point that Hitler just co-opted the term socialism for his own use...

Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas... However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War.

In the end I decided that as SosbanFach's knowledge of this subject was so clearly lacking, I'd post the article in it's entirety and give SosbanFach the history lesson he should have been given at school.

[Strokes]

It was a lazy cut-and-paste job from me. I probably could have edited it to just the highlights that illustrate my point that Hitler just co-opted the term socialism for his own use...

In the end I decided that as SosbanFach's knowledge of this subject was so clearly lacking, I'd post the article in it's entirety and give SosbanFach the history lesson he should have been given at school.

Trouble is history can be distorted / interpreted in so many ways that it becomes as usful as fiction.