My Two penneth

[davieG]

What a boring man you are , play a new tune or shut up.

It's a forum if you don't like it don't read it and if you find it that boring go to your controls and select 'Manage your ignored users'.

Better boring than disrespectful or rude.

[Thracian]

It's like denying a lad his dinner break, DavieG. The opportunity to play football at school should have been listed in the very first paragraph of Human Rights legislation.

[Sir Fynwy]

It's a forum if you don't like it don't read it and if you find it that boring go to your controls and select 'Manage your ignored users'.

Better boring than disrespectful or rude.

That's the problem davie, the unchanging and regular arguement from one poster has basically made reading this forum a chore, which I do very infrequently now. Ignore users only works if you log in each time you read ft which i don't due to time restrictions etc.

I call that rude!

[davieG]

It's like denying a lad his dinner break, DavieG. The opportunity to play football at school should have been listed in the very first paragraph of Human Rights legislation.

If it was today I could have sued them under that act anyway and got millions in compensation, to enable me buy up LCFC and to have Gibbo cloned

[davieG]

That's the problem davie, the unchanging and regular arguement from one poster has basically made reading this forum a chore, which I do very infrequently now. Ignore users only works if you log in each time you read ft which i don't due to time restrictions etc.

I call that rude!

But you still found the time to post this quite unnecessary post

What a boring man you are , play a new tune or shut up.

.

[Thracian]

If it was today I could have sued them under that act anyway and got millions in compensation, to enable me buy up LCFC and to have Gibbo cloned

Then we'd have the ground full

[Guest]

I am quite sure you do but I just have the feeling that you start with a philosophy of caution first.

By that I mean if we have a defence that concedes goals I feel that your approach would be to add another defender to the mix whereas mine would be to get rid of the defender/s who were unable to cope or find out the reasons and adjust the system/improve the player/s.

I would never compromise my team's attacking potential because I would always consider that one of the reasons we were conceding goals was that the ball was not where it should be: in our possession and in their half.

That doesn't mean being reckless. It means having a team of footballers all demonstrably capable of passing quickly and accurately and all ruthless enough to want to do it whatever the score or the stage of the match. In other words, sitting back on a lead would simply not enter their head and if it did they would soon know about it.

Wrong yet again. You've obviously never had the pleasure of watching a match in my vicinity.

[Sir Fynwy]

But you still found the time to post this quite unnecessary post

.

Sorry but being stuck in a Milan Hotel waiting for a business dinner with some colleagues I decided to kill some time by browsing FT only to have to read all the same old stuff again.

I won't bother again!

[davieG]

Sorry but being stuck in a Milan Hotel waiting for a business dinner with some colleagues I decided to kill some time by browsing FT only to have to read all the same old stuff again.

I won't bother again!

No you're very welcome you just don't need to read Thracian's posts again

[Guest]

No you're very welcome you just don't need to read Thracian's posts again

I do tell him, bless his little cottons.....

[Thracian]

Wrong yet again. You've obviously never had the pleasure of watching a match in my vicinity.

Perhaps you convey a different message as a spectator than you do as a poster. But if you say you do believe in attacking football then I happily apologise for forming the wrong impression. Perhaps there's hope yet.

[Guest]

Perhaps you convey a different message as a spectator than you do as a poster. But if you say you do believe in attacking football then I happily apologise for forming the wrong impression. Perhaps there's hope yet.

The best form of defence is attack, but to do this you have to have the right players. We don't, and we don't have the resource behind to just go out and buy them.

However, you have to have the balance. You cannot attack for 90 minutes non-stop. You also need the players who will defend well. We don't have those either.

Given the choice I would build from the back, not because I am cautious, but because I believe in a firm foundation from which to build on. This is a results game, after all.

[Head Honcho]

I'm hoping we hang on to Williams.

Didn't he improve a little under Rob Kelly?

Williams may improve next season, he'll be playing for a contract the season after won't he

[Thracian]

The best form of defence is attack, but to do this you have to have the right players. We don't, and we don't have the resource behind to just go out and buy them.

However, you have to have the balance. You cannot attack for 90 minutes non-stop. You also need the players who will defend well. We don't have those either.

Given the choice I would build from the back, not because I am cautious, but because I believe in a firm foundation from which to build on. This is a results game, after all.

Thanks for the explanation. That's exactly the way I believed you thought. I totally agree with you about the need for balance which should mean we both fail to understand why our team is so overloaded with defensive players. It is as easy to sign attackers as defenders but we sign very few of first team standard for some extraordinary reason and don't seem capable of bringing through any attackers of our own(unless you count O'Grady).

[Guest]

Thanks for the explanation. That's exactly the way I believed you thought. I totally agree with you about the need for balance which should mean we both fail to understand why our team is so overloaded with defensive players. It is as easy to sign attackers as defenders but we sign very few of first team standard for some extraordinary reason and don't seem capable of bringing through any attackers of our own(unless you count O'Grady).

Good attacking players, on average so it seems, cost more than good defenders.

[Thracian]

Good attacking players, on average so it seems, cost more than good defenders.

If you're saying we cannot afford good attackers (and Lord knows we've spent enough in wages on bad attackers) then the only option is to develop our own (my preferred option anyway). And how long is it since we deveoped a striker or a winger or an attacking midfielder who was first choice for the first team?

[Guest]

If you're saying we cannot afford good attackers (and Lord knows we've spent enough in wages on bad attackers) then the only option is to develop our own (my preferred option anyway). And how long is it since we deveoped a striker or a winger or an attacking midfielder who was first choice for the first team?

These things take time, and we have false hopes in recent years (Wright et al). Showing promise at a lower level of football is no guarantee of success. I think Heskey is the last player that we brought on and has gone on to have any success.

[Thracian]

These things take time, and we have false hopes in recent years (Wright et al). Showing promise at a lower level of football is no guarantee of success. I think Heskey is the last player that we brought on and has gone on to have any success.

What an indictment.

[l444ry]

If you're saying we cannot afford good attackers (and Lord knows we've spent enough in wages on bad attackers) then the only option is to develop our own (my preferred option anyway). And how long is it since we deveoped a striker or a winger or an attacking midfielder who was first choice for the first team?

As you say, Thracian, we have never developed young players who come through. So how long therefore would it take your plan to work? In what division would you expect us be in before they materialise? And furthermore, how would you stop anyone leaving if one of the so called "bigger" clubs came calling? With respect, your preferred plan is bordering on fantasy land.

[Thracian]

As you say, Thracian, we have never developed young players who come through. So how long therefore would it take your plan to work? In what division would you expect us be in before they materialise? And furthermore, how would you stop anyone leaving if one of the so called "bigger" clubs came calling? With respect, your preferred plan is bordering on fantasy land.

If you are honestly suggesting the Academy cannot work then why waste money on it?.

My view is that it can.

One of the reasons we don't bring people through is that we don't seem to work hard enough on that final push. In fact the whole process seems to stall if we cannot send people out on loan.

Furthermore we don't show enough faith in those players early enough and rather than involving them on the first team bench we seem to prefer poor but highly paid "outside" signings to our own seemingly more effective youngsters. I wonder why that is?.

It would also depend on who was selecting the players and who was bringing them through as to how long it took for regular throughput to materialise but if we've got no money to buy anyone decent and we don't develop our own are you suggesting we pack up as a club, as nearly happened of course?.

This season took us closer than I'd ever want to go towards footballing oblivion so why you are so condemning of an alternative approach I don't know.

Do you deny we need 20 more goals a season?. Do you deny our team has insufficient attackers? Do you deny we waste money on too many bad signings? Do you deny we fail to capitalise on our free kicks and corners?

Well if we cannot buy all the people to put those problems right we have to develop some. At this stage of our history we ought to have a regular production line but we don't. We have to find out why and put it right promptly.

O'Grady is an example really. The bloke was buzzing but instead of getting him deeply involved we gave him a bit part. Why? Because Fryatt and Hume were doing the business as strikers.

My answer? Play all three and adapt the system so we take out someone who is ineffective.

There really is no point in having these players if we don't use them to greatest effect.

[l444ry]

If you are honestly suggesting the Academy cannot work then why waste money on it?.

My view is that it can.

One of the reasons we don't bring people through is that we don't seem to work hard enough on that final push. In fact the whole process seems to stall if we cannot send people out on loan.

Furthermore we don't show enough faith in those players early enough and rather than involving them on the first team bench we seem to prefer poor but highly paid "outside" signings to our own seemingly more effective youngsters. I wonder why that is?.

It would also depend on who was selecting the players and who was bringing them through as to how long it took for regular throughput to materialise but if we've got no money to buy anyone decent and we don't develop our own are you suggesting we pack up as a club, as nearly happened of course?.

This season took us closer than I'd ever want to go towards footballing oblivion so why you are so condemning of an alternative approach I don't know.

Do you deny we need 20 more goals a season?. Do you deny our team has insufficient attackers? Do you deny we waste money on too many bad signings? Do you deny we fail to capitalise on our free kicks and corners?

Well if we cannot buy all the people to put those problems right we have to develop some. At this stage of our history we ought to have a regular production line but we don't. We have to find out why and put it right promptly.

O'Grady is an example really. The bloke was buzzing but instead of getting him deeply involved we gave him a bit part. Why? Because Fryatt and Hume were doing the business as strikers.

My answer? Play all three and adapt the system so we take out someone who is ineffective.

There really is no point in having these players if we don't use them to greatest effect.

Were you a politician in a previous life Thracian? I posed several questions regarding your obsession with youth and you answered your own new ones.

If the Academy keeps on with it's pitiful performance then, yes, I do seriously think we should look to make savings there until more funds become available.

When you say we don't try hard enough with "the final push" surely the last six or seven managers were in a better position to know if any of the young players were good enough. I don't see any of these lost jewels lighting up any other teams elsewhere.

I am not so stupid as to suggest we should "pack up as a club" just because I disagree with your way forward. I am not condemning "an alternative approach", just yours..... I simply am not convinced just chucking in a load of kids in the hope that they will become the Busby Babes is realistic.

[Ric Flair]

If you are honestly suggesting the Academy cannot work then why waste money on it?.

My view is that it can.

One of the reasons we don't bring people through is that we don't seem to work hard enough on that final push. In fact the whole process seems to stall if we cannot send people out on loan.

Furthermore we don't show enough faith in those players early enough and rather than involving them on the first team bench we seem to prefer poor but highly paid "outside" signings to our own seemingly more effective youngsters. I wonder why that is?.

It would also depend on who was selecting the players and who was bringing them through as to how long it took for regular throughput to materialise but if we've got no money to buy anyone decent and we don't develop our own are you suggesting we pack up as a club, as nearly happened of course?.

This season took us closer than I'd ever want to go towards footballing oblivion so why you are so condemning of an alternative approach I don't know.

Do you deny we need 20 more goals a season?. Do you deny our team has insufficient attackers? Do you deny we waste money on too many bad signings? Do you deny we fail to capitalise on our free kicks and corners?

Well if we cannot buy all the people to put those problems right we have to develop some. At this stage of our history we ought to have a regular production line but we don't. We have to find out why and put it right promptly.

O'Grady is an example really. The bloke was buzzing but instead of getting him deeply involved we gave him a bit part. Why? Because Fryatt and Hume were doing the business as strikers.

My answer? Play all three and adapt the system so we take out someone who is ineffective.

There really is no point in having these players if we don't use them to greatest effect.

How many of our academy players have left us and gone on to better things or even make a success of things at a lower level in the past few years? All the ones that would have done we have kept and are in our first team or pushing to get in there (Weso, Stearman, O'Grady, Sheehan and hopefully soon Chambers)

I had the same views as you a few seasons ago under Adams when the youngsters weren't given a chance but the ones that I wanted to be involved have since gone on to play for FC Inter Turku, Blackpool/Barnsley and Mansfield. There were 2 others that I was desperate to see and they are now both in our first team and 2 of our best players (Weso and Stearman) they got their chance because they were good enough.

That's not to say that some academy players don't get over-looked and it seems to be easier for managers not to take a chance on some, which is unfair. But in our situation I think it will be a case of if they have some talent they'll get a chance because we have no money and a small squad.

[Thracian]

Were you a politician in a previous life Thracian? I posed several questions regarding your obsession with youth and you answered your own new ones.

If the Academy keeps on with it's pitiful performance then, yes, I do seriously think we should look to make savings there until more funds become available.

When you say we don't try hard enough with "the final push" surely the last six or seven managers were in a better position to know if any of the young players were good enough. I don't see any of these lost jewels lighting up any other teams elsewhere.

I am not so stupid as to suggest we should "pack up as a club" just because I disagree with your way forward. I am not condemning "an alternative approach", just yours..... I simply am not convinced just chucking in a load of kids in the hope that they will become the Busby Babes is realistic.

I don't think the six or seven managers you mention were necessarily wrong (including Kelly, although I'd sure like to find out on that score particularly in respect of Dodds, Porter and Chambers).

What bothers me is that we first select players around the age of 13 or even less, then spend years developing them and not one single forward has come through since Heskey way back - unless you count O'Grady which I don't as yet.

And the question remains therefore. If we cannot afford good players we have to bring our own through and no-one has told me yet why we fail to bring forwards through.

RicFlair rightly mentions Stearman and (hopefully) Wesolowski but not one winger, attacking midfielder or centre-forward (O'Grady is not used as a centre-forward he is used as a 15-minute ball-holder to help run the game out).

I can tell you this. If I were paying for the Academy, I'd be well cheesed off because such a lack of return is contributing seriously to our demise. What I'm interested in is why no forwards have emerged.

The Academy players (runaway runners up in their League and winners of the Westerby Cup) have had excellent results under Jon Rudkin and Steve B. They score goals for fun and even at reserve level have often been seen to run rampant. It doesn't seem to be their fault because their teams attack in numbers, deliver good and effective free kicks, have players who take a good proportion of chances with panache.

Then suddenly these same players seem to have nowhere to go and they end up treading water. The people I'm talking about have had a positive effect at every level they've played yet, at first team level, there is suddenly no enthusiasm even for them replacing people who have a negligible effect.

And yet those people have to be shifted if Leicester are to improve - of that I am absolutely certain.

I thought Kelly would be ruthless enough or shrewd enough to know who they were, to move them on and to bring in better from outside leaving a couple of youngsters per season to be eased through from the bench.

But he talks as if he wants to retain virtually the entire squad including the negative players which means, if there's no available money for better signings and there's no obvious room for youngsters to come through from the bench we have a serious impasse.

It really seems that our only hope rests with the chairman coming up with some investment from somewhere but as it stands there seems precious little to invest in given our situation both on and off the field.

At least four positions, probably five positions need seriously strengthening not counting the cover we need for those same positions. In team terms that is major reconstruction. How is it going to come about if we don't offload a few, sell someone and fully utilise what we already have?

PS as a direct answer to your questions.

How long for the plan to work?

It could start working immediately because I would have two, possibly three out of O'Grady, Porter, Dodds, Chambers, Sheehan drafted into our first team squad of 16 from the start.

I would involve them extensively in the friendlies and I would show faith in them instead of chucking them out after a couple of mistakes (I saw plenty of mistakes from the regulars last year).

Porter, for instance was diabolical when he first played midfield but he quickly learned and adjusted - and as dramatically as Kisnorbo. By Christmas you would know if those in the squad were becoming potential regulars and cash assets

or if they were falling short in which case the others would be given their chance.

What Division: The Championship. Is there some reason we should suddenly be turfed out? I would see any unused youngsters (from the five mentioned) being joined by perhaps Gradel and Odihiambo (plus any not seen yet) the season after next making a minimum of four being used over the next two seasons.

What if one of the big guns came in? Well I expect Southampon to benefit for years from Arsenal coming in for Walcot so, if someone came in for, say, Chambers then our most important task is to be sure we've earmarked some potential alternatives to spend the money on. Such a possibility is one of the main attrctions of the Academy work.

[l444ry]

How many of our academy players have left us and gone on to better things or even make a success of things at a lower level in the past few years? All the ones that would have done we have kept and are in our first team or pushing to get in there (Weso, Stearman, O'Grady, Sheehan and hopefully soon Chambers)

I had the same views as you a few seasons ago under Adams when the youngsters weren't given a chance but the ones that I wanted to be involved have since gone on to play for FC Inter Turku, Blackpool/Barnsley and Mansfield. There were 2 others that I was desperate to see and they are now both in our first team and 2 of our best players (Weso and Stearman) they got their chance because they were good enough.

That's not to say that some academy players don't get over-looked and it seems to be easier for managers not to take a chance on some, which is unfair. But in our situation I think it will be a case of if they have some talent they'll get a chance because we have no money and a small squad.

You make the point about the Academy's failure better than me Ric. When the whole concept of Academy football was launched by Howard Wilkinson I thought it was brilliant. What better reason could there be but to take decent young footballers away from the well-meaning parents and teachers who, in the main, didn't (and don't) have a clue. A bit like ingraining bad habits on the driving range Thracian. Far better for the professionals to ease them in correctly.

However, with the fallout of Bosman and the deluge of foreigners into our game you can now pick up virtually the finished article on a free. In light of these developments I think Acadamies only benefit the "bigger" clubs and England as a national side. Unless our scouting improves dramatically I cannot see any benefit from keeping ours.

[Guest]

What bothers me is that we first select players around the age of 13 or even less, then spend years developing them and not one single forward has come through since Heskey way back - unless you count O'Grady which I don't as yet.

A lot can happen between the ages of 13 and 18/19. Plus, different people develop at different stages. Going by your theory players like Stuart Pearce and Ian Wright would never have made it.