Jay Posted 15 June 2006 Share Posted 15 June 2006 A lot can happen between the ages of 13 and 18/19. Plus, different people develop at different stages. Going by your theory players like Stuart Pearce and Ian Wright would never have made it. you are spot on once again Lisa their is such a big differnce between being a promising youngster and making it is a full time pro plenty of players and not just ours have come through looking like the next best thing and they don't make the grade some players just reach their peak and can't develop any further like Tommy Wright or Jon Stevenson when the only way is down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 15 June 2006 Share Posted 15 June 2006 You make the point about the Academy's failure better than me Ric. When the whole concept of Academy football was launched by Howard Wilkinson I thought it was brilliant. What better reason could there be but to take decent young footballers away from the well-meaning parents and teachers who, in the main, didn't (and don't) have a clue. A bit like ingraining bad habits on the driving range Thracian. Far better for the professionals to ease them in correctly. However, with the fallout of Bosman and the deluge of foreigners into our game you can now pick up virtually the finished article on a free. In light of these developments I think Acadamies only benefit the "bigger" clubs and England as a national side. Unless our scouting improves dramatically I cannot see any benefit from keeping ours. So why don't we sign all these wonderful players on free transfers? It would not be something I would personally encourage in any club I was responsible for because I think we share a responsibility for the future health of English football but I accept that others would disagree with that. But have Leicester's foreign players, free or otherwise, been so brilliant?. I don't think so. And some have been appalling. I agree with you about the scouting and the golf!!! And I think you raise an important debate about the value of the Academy. Despite my inner belief that it might be invaluable to us in the end if run to maximum effect it is going to remain an expensive luxury if it doesn't produce or if our managers don't facilitate its producing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 15 June 2006 Share Posted 15 June 2006 A lot can happen between the ages of 13 and 18/19. Plus, different people develop at different stages. Going by your theory players like Stuart Pearce and Ian Wright would never have made it. Perhaps I'm just whacked after 18 holes of golf but I fail to see how my theory means that Stuart Pearce and Ian Wright would never have made it. Indeed my own sporting background perhaps makes me appreciate as much as anyone that different players develop/take opportunities at different ages. Furthermore I was trying to explain how the Academy might work generally. I would never rule out exceptions to any rule - one reason why having "the right sort" would be lower down on my priorities than on Rob Kelly's. Some of the very best sportsmen come with baggage aplenty. But I would never want to miss out on a Roy Keane, George Best, Frank Worthington, Peter Osgood, Steve Walsh. I would have passed on Denis Wise though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l444ry Posted 15 June 2006 Share Posted 15 June 2006 So why don't we sign all these wonderful players on free transfers? It would not be something I would personally encourage in any club I was responsible for because I think we share a responsibility for the future health of English football but I accept that others would disagree with that. But have Leicester's foreign players, free or otherwise, been so brilliant?. I don't think so. And some have been appalling. I agree with you about the scouting and the golf!!! And I think you raise an important debate about the value of the Academy. Despite my inner belief that it might be invaluable to us in the end if run to maximum effect it is going to remain an expensive luxury if it doesn't produce or if our managers don't facilitate its producing. Wow....don't get me wrong!!! I just meant that with the deluge of foreign players into the game there are many British players, young and old, becoming available at realistic prices. And if they want to continue their careers then a drop in wages to Championship level is essential. I suggest that the players are there.....but unfortunately we haven't had a manager since Martin O'Neill who spots the right ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 15 June 2006 Share Posted 15 June 2006 Wow....don't get me wrong!!! I just meant that with the deluge of foreign players into the game there are many British players, young and old, becoming available at realistic prices. And if they want to continue their careers then a drop in wages to Championship level is essential. I suggest that the players are there.....but unfortunately we haven't had a manager since Martin O'Neill who spots the right ones. You are right there. MON had a rare talent. The ability to put so many different types together in one big jigsaw and make them fit together effectively. Whether Rob Kelly can do it I don't know - and I feel guilty for having my doubts - but I do hope so. We so need a man with MON's vision and single mindedness. I am not saying we need a clone by any means. Each man is his own person. But Kelly will need to make some harsh decisions as well as remaining a popular man around the dressing room and training ground. We just cannot afford to carry passengers - and that goes for young players as well as older. I do have faith in him. It's just that he's still learning and he reminds me of one or two posters - he just doesn't strike me as one to take risks even if it might extend his knowledge and his boundaries. Doesn't mean he (or the posters) are wrong and that he won't do it his way and come good. In the end I don't care so long as he puts the pride and sparkle back into our club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 June 2006 Share Posted 16 June 2006 Perhaps I'm just whacked after 18 holes of golf but I fail to see how my theory means that Stuart Pearce and Ian Wright would never have made it. Indeed my own sporting background perhaps makes me appreciate as much as anyone that different players develop/take opportunities at different ages. Furthermore I was trying to explain how the Academy might work generally. I would never rule out exceptions to any rule - one reason why having "the right sort" would be lower down on my priorities than on Rob Kelly's. Some of the very best sportsmen come with baggage aplenty. But I would never want to miss out on a Roy Keane, George Best, Frank Worthington, Peter Osgood, Steve Walsh. I would have passed on Denis Wise though! Because neither were picked up by league clubs as youngsters and both were playing non-league when Palace and Covscum signed both as relatively older players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 16 June 2006 Share Posted 16 June 2006 Because neither were picked up by league clubs as youngsters and both were playing non-league when Palace and Covscum signed both as relatively older players. Just because I favour developing our own talent (especially when we have so little money) doesn't mean I wouldn't sign a good player off the street or from anywhere else given the opportunity. I have no problem with signing good players any time if we can and you know enough about my views to accept that the likes of attacking full-back Stuart Pearce and c.20-goals a season striker Ian Wright would have been right up my street. It is signing and persisting with negative or ineffective players when there are better options (both within and without) that bothers me and which is holding the club back. We simply cannot continue giving ourselves a handicap every season by holding on to such players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez of Mahrez Posted 16 June 2006 Share Posted 16 June 2006 It is signing and persisting with negative or ineffective players when there are better options (both within and without) that bothers me and which is holding the club back. We simply cannot continue giving ourselves a handicap every season by holding on to such players. Whatever you want to say about Craig Levein, he did not go out and make it his aim to sign ineffective players. And I think Kelly's reluctance to use the likes of Hamill, Hammond and Sylla suggests that he would be willing to let them go should someone come in for them. The fact is that we have signed some duff players and no-one wants to take them off our hands. With our wage bill and the size of our squad, they are still here and will be for the considerable future. Perhaps the problem is the contract but then for example Hamill is still quite young and if he had been given a one-year contract, performed well and then gone off to the Premiership this summer everyone would have been moaning about him not being given a long-term contract. I agree that persisting with these players in the first team ahead of the likes of Porter and Dodds is a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 16 June 2006 Share Posted 16 June 2006 I think you're right. I wonder if Levein will learn from having left himself up a cul-de-sac so often?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez of Mahrez Posted 16 June 2006 Share Posted 16 June 2006 I think you're right. I wonder if Levein will learn from having left himself up a cul-de-sac so often?. I'm sure fans of some League One giants will find out soon enough On that note, I remember the vast, vast majority of fans scratching their heads at why Douglas and de Vries in particular were given three-and-a-half-year contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 16 June 2006 Share Posted 16 June 2006 I'm sure fans of some League One giants will find out soon enough On that note, I remember the vast, vast majority of fans scratching their heads at why Douglas and de Vries in particular were given three-and-a-half-year contracts. I bet they've got big scabs now!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Flair Posted 19 June 2006 Share Posted 19 June 2006 You make the point about the Academy's failure better than me Ric. When the whole concept of Academy football was launched by Howard Wilkinson I thought it was brilliant. What better reason could there be but to take decent young footballers away from the well-meaning parents and teachers who, in the main, didn't (and don't) have a clue. A bit like ingraining bad habits on the driving range Thracian. Far better for the professionals to ease them in correctly. However, with the fallout of Bosman and the deluge of foreigners into our game you can now pick up virtually the finished article on a free. In light of these developments I think Acadamies only benefit the "bigger" clubs and England as a national side. Unless our scouting improves dramatically I cannot see any benefit from keeping ours. Academies also benefit smaller clubs in the lower leagues because it appears that lots of youngsters from premierships clubs get released and they then have to find their way again in football at a lower level and we are now seeing lots of yougnsters at lower levels then being re-signed by bigger clubs a few years later. I think that's brilliant, that benefits two ends of the spectrum as lower level clubs get excellent young players for free and then they often make a big profit on them in the future. This though is coming about because as you say, the premiership clubs have filled their squads full of foreigners with lots of them being mediocre and the academy players then struggle to make the breakthrough. The big question that I can't really answer as I don't have the proof but are academies worthwhile or are they a drain on finance? I'd say they are worthwhile because all players start off in academies and if there were no academies in this current climate i'd fear for clubs like ourselves and lower down. I mean how much do academies cost to run per season? I think I read somewhere that it costs £14000 per player per season, whether that's true i'm not sure. But with us selling Heskey & Piper for £15 million combined I still think that's a massive profit in the past 10 years. Plus we have 2 academy players in our first team that could potentially fetch us another £10 million should they progress to the level they are capable of and we don't have to sell them at a knock-down price. Levein was right in saying that if we're going to fund an academy then it's vital to try and bring through 2 or 3 players per season and he's right about that. I think with some fine tuning our academy could be very beneficial to us and I hope Kelly has the same insight as Levein did here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 19 June 2006 Share Posted 19 June 2006 My instinct is to stick with the Academy but we cannot afford many years of not bringing two or three players through - and the very thought of that seems to fill some fans with horror as they would obviously sooner us keep buying exotic but overpriced ornaments for the bench and sidelines from distant places. I've nothing against talented exotic but ornaments piss me off and overpriced ones even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janx Posted 31 July 2006 Author Share Posted 31 July 2006 I think that we need a couple of time served 28-32 year olds to take us up.... Quality players down the spine, perhaps one in Midfield, goal and defence... yeah thats a spine durr. If you look at the teams that did well and went up, they had plenty of experience and youth at their disposal.. I am NOT talking about a return to the Micky Adams Darby and Joan Club days, but think that these young guys need a bit of experience from people who have won things, been up and down the leagues etc. OK on with the slating!! Just wanted to bump this as I think RK has done SOME of what I asked by bringing in AJ.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Flair Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 Just wanted to bump this as I think RK has done SOME of what I asked by bringing in AJ.... The problem is that AJ is going to be wasted if Kelly continues with this defender army and long ball game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 Just wanted to bump this as I think RK has done SOME of what I asked by bringing in AJ.... Grrr thanks! Ive just had to trawl through Thracian's 70 identical posts to get to this point. My head hurts now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The People's Hero Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 Grrr thanks! Ive just had to trawl through Thracian's 70 identical posts to get to this point. My head hurts now! They weren't identical, there were some subtle variations in terms of syntax and structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 They weren't identical, there were some subtle variations in terms of syntax and structure. Yeah ok the words just merged into one identical thread with bits of Lisa thrown in for good measure. I now need therapy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janx Posted 31 July 2006 Author Share Posted 31 July 2006 Yeah ok the words just merged into one identical thread with bits of Lisa thrown in for good measure. I now need therapy. Just do what I do, read the firsy and last posts...most of everything else that Thracian and Ric Flair put, is too soperiphic to read otherwise... Just kiddin!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 Just do what I do, read the firsy and last posts...most of everything else that Thracian and Ric Flair put, is too soperiphic to read otherwise... Just kiddin!! I was hoping to find some reasonable debate....but I didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 What? With me involved? You're deluded..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Flair Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 Just do what I do, read the firsy and last posts...most of everything else that Thracian and Ric Flair put, is too soperiphic to read otherwise... Just kiddin!! How very rude of you sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janx Posted 31 July 2006 Author Share Posted 31 July 2006 How very rude of you sir. sorry? What?? I just nodded off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Flair Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 sorry? What?? I just nodded off Let's hope you don't read this forum on your laptopo when your driving home otherwise you'll do yourself a mischief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thracian Posted 31 July 2006 Share Posted 31 July 2006 No-one offered him a professional contract (probably with good reason). Tiatto might have been pretty shite last season, but I reckon I'd still rather see him play than some focking builder. Any takers for the next Vinnie Jones? Yes they did. He turned them down to remain a builder. Football wages were nothing special in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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