Ireland Vote Yes on the Lisbon Treaty

[Guest lcfc80]

That is where you are wrong. It is supposed to amend the Treaty on European Union (the Maastricht Treaty), and the Treaty establishing the European Community from the 50's. Given the way that the EU has expanded in the past decade or so, how would you address these issues?

You also ignore the fact that the UK has already negotiated certain opt outs, which include some decisions not being binding on the UK.

You've read the Treaty? Well done!

Thats a play on words. The european constitution is, as is the lisbon treaty, an amendment of the maastricht treaty. what i said is the lisbon treaty was supposed to be a whole new treaty compared to the european constitution, which it blatantly isn't.

The opt outs that you mention are worthless when all the other members can rewrite these laws when/if the thing ever goes through and we can't veto it because it is a majority voting system.

We'd be better of out of europe in my opinion so we could negotiate our own deals with other countries. You are yet to show me 1 benefit of the treaty for us as in the UK.

[Benji]

what will happen if the treaty is passed is what i have posted. This is supposed to be a whole new treaty after the european union constitution but after a independent 'think tank' panel of MP's studied it they concluded it was fundamentally the same treaty, many other european MP's from other countries have admitted it is the same treaty aswell. One of the main problems that it will provide this county is the 'majority voting ' system that will come in instead of the current system when we can veto policies that clearly don't help us. imagine how that could damage thinks such as the fishing industries when we can't stop the Spanish insisting they can catch more fish in our waters (this is just a random example of what could happen). The Treaty brings nothing to benefit this once great nation.

And I am not influenced by newspapers opions, I just take on board the facts

When there were only 6 member states maybe a veto system was reasonable. But how can you expect the EU to pass anything when it only takes one of 27 (and growing) member states to disagree.

Say a new law is proposed that is clearly for the good of us all, and Luxembourg with a population of less than half a million decide it doesn't suit them, how can it be reasonable that they veto the other 26?

Majority rule has long been a part of all modern day democracies as it is the only reasonable way of dealing with a lack of animosity.

[Daggers]

your trying very hard to get noticed by me tonight aren't you

No.

I was shooting the shit in a thread about irrelevant bullshit.

Sorry to cramp your ego, but I couldn't care two shits whether you notice me or not.

[Guest lcfc80]

When there were only 6 member states maybe a veto system was reasonable. But how can you expect the EU to pass anything when it only takes one of 27 (and growing) member states to disagree.

Say a new law is proposed that is clearly for the good of us all, and Luxembourg with a population of less than half a million decide it doesn't suit them, how can it be reasonable that they veto the other 26?

Majority rule has long been a part of all modern day democracies as it is the only reasonable way of dealing with a lack of animosity.

the veto right gives a country an important tool in protecting its own sovereignty. The veto would stop us being bullied by very pro europe countries such as germany and we also wouldn't fold at the french everytime their farmers or fishermen went on strike to get their own way

[Benji]

By the way, my personal opinion actually agrees with you lcfc80, I'm not a fan of the EU and I think Parliamentary Sovereignty should be restored and reiterated as it once was. The EU was created to help social and economic markets at a time in need. Once we start losing political power which has happened well into the EC Treaty our interests become less and less important. My point is however that as much as I'd rather we were not signatories, while we are a part of the EU, I'd rather it be a workable system.

[Guest]

Thats a play on words. The european constitution is, as is the lisbon treaty, an amendment of the maastricht treaty. what i said is the lisbon treaty was supposed to be a whole new treaty compared to the european constitution, which it blatantly isn't.

The opt outs that you mention are worthless when all the other members can rewrite these laws when/if the thing ever goes through and we can't veto it because it is a majority voting system.

We'd be better of out of europe in my opinion so we could negotiate our own deals with other countries. You are yet to show me 1 benefit of the treaty for us as in the UK.

Did you not read anything? The opt out the UK has negotiated means some things aren't binding on the UK. Do you know what that means?

I am not going to convince you of anything. I don't know if you've noticed, but I am trying to ascertain your position. In effect, I am asking you to convince me. What exactly is it you're afraid of?

[Daggers]

Did you not read anything? The opt out the UK has negotiated means some things aren't binding on the UK. Do you know what that means?

I am not going to convince you of anything. I don't know if you've noticed, but I am trying to ascertain your position. In effect, I am asking you to convince me. What exactly is it you're afraid of?

Cheese.

Apparently.

*sniggers in a pubescant manner*

[Benji]

Cathedral has become a massive favourite in our house over the last year

[Daggers]

Cathedral has become a massive favourite in our house over the last year

I find it too mild for my tastes now, Benji, although my daughter is a fan.

Me? I bought a delightful hand-made mature cheddar with lemon, chilli and mango last weekend. Creamy yet fiery, with a full flavour.

Much like the Lisbon Treaty.

Only better on biscuits.

[Guest]

I quite like Cathedral.

[Edmund]

Swiss Emmental is where it's at.

[Guest lcfc80]

Did you not read anything? The opt out the UK has negotiated means some things aren't binding on the UK. Do you know what that means?

I am not going to convince you of anything. I don't know if you've noticed, but I am trying to ascertain your position. In effect, I am asking you to convince me. What exactly is it you're afraid of?

nothing is binding and if you believe it is then fair enough. Just because it said in the daily mirror that we would be OK doesn't mean we will. All the things that have been agreed that we have opted out can easily be reworded so we have to face the consequencies later on. I'll tell you what i am scared of, im scared of losing our independence to europe, im scared of us being bossed around by pro euro countries like france and germany, im scared of us having to foot the bill for crap countires like poland (did you know we pay one of the highest amounts into europe but take almost the least out?) im scared that we will lose what little national identity we have left.

Still yet to hear where you can show me a good point in joining, and after all if you can't do that then I have already got the upper hand

[Daggers]

I quite like Cathedral.

Face it: Cathedral is for gays, illegals and benefit scroungers.

Vache Qui Rit is better than that!

[Zingari]

it's just another step on the way to the NWO , it's pointless worrying about it now as it's far too late .

apparently , not in the treaty , but on a footnote to a footnote , the death penalty ( " in the case of war, riots, upheaval" ) has been slipped in

[stez]

presumably i'll still have to go to work?

[Ford Super Sunday]

Your argument looks like it's come straight from the Daily Mail. I just want to see if you know exactly what you know about this Treaty, what you know about the current Treaties, and how the new one purports to affect the current status quo.

Really, I thought it sounded a bit more like The Sun had put those arguments into his head.

Nevertheless, this is what we have democracy and pay MPs for, to make these decisions for me. The choice is easy, if you're so against the damn thing, vote for the conservatives or UKIP, if you love and want it, vote Labour.

I want people to make the decisions on this because they have READ the thing IN FULL. I don't have a clue whether we should or shouldn't sign up to this treaty, because I haven't read it in full, and I am not going to believe the spin and shpiel that is in newspapers. The amount of euro-myths they have produced over the years is shocking.

Once ministes and MPs have read it IN FULL, then they can use their expertise to judge whether it is economically viable for us to sign up, and the benifits that it will have. I dont think there is one peice of legislation that has no negative reasons why to sign it etc.

A democratically elected government is making the decision on whether we should or shouldn't sign up to the treaty. Are we really going to have a referendum, at enormous cost to organise and carry out, only for about 20% of the electorate to turn out and actually vote? If you want that, vote Tory, and you'll get your wish.

I can see it now...

'OH MY GOD THERE IS NO WAY WE SHOULD BE IN EUROPE, have you read The Sun?'

'so you're going to vote in the referendum today'

'fook off, it's pissing it down, i'm not getting wet just to vote'

[Guest]

Still yet to hear where you can show me a good point in joining, and after all if you can't do that then I have already got the upper hand

You clearly haven't read what I have posted properly.

Really, I thought it sounded a bit more like The Sun had put those arguments into his head.

I was being kind.

[Webbo]

Nevertheless, this is what we have democracy and pay MPs for, to make these decisions for me. The choice is easy, if you're so against the damn thing, vote for the conservatives or UKIP, if you love and want it, vote Labour.

At the last election Labour promised us a referendum on this.However on your argument none of us should have voted anyway unless we'd read all the manifestos of all the parties.

[davieG]

Really, I thought it sounded a bit more like The Sun had put those arguments into his head.

Nevertheless, this is what we have democracy and pay MPs for, to make these decisions for me. The choice is easy, if you're so against the damn thing, vote for the conservatives or UKIP, if you love and want it, vote Labour.

I want people to make the decisions on this because they have READ the thing IN FULL. I don't have a clue whether we should or shouldn't sign up to this treaty, because I haven't read it in full, and I am not going to believe the spin and shpiel that is in newspapers. The amount of euro-myths they have produced over the years is shocking.

Once ministes and MPs have read it IN FULL, then they can use their expertise to judge whether it is economically viable for us to sign up, and the benifits that it will have. I dont think there is one peice of legislation that has no negative reasons why to sign it etc.

A democratically elected government is making the decision on whether we should or shouldn't sign up to the treaty. Are we really going to have a referendum, at enormous cost to organise and carry out, only for about 20% of the electorate to turn out and actually vote? If you want that, vote Tory, and you'll get your wish.

I can see it now...

'OH MY GOD THERE IS NO WAY WE SHOULD BE IN EUROPE, have you read The Sun?'

'so you're going to vote in the referendum today'

'fook off, it's pissing it down, i'm not getting wet just to vote'

You really think they've all read it - I suspect they haven't and don't need to they'll just follow the party line whether they agree with it or not.

As for 'their expertise' what expertise do they have on this subject that is any different to any other interested member of the public bearing in mind you need no qualifications to become an MP other than either a 'safe seat' or half decent personality/media face.

[TrickyTrev]

When there were only 6 member states maybe a veto system was reasonable. But how can you expect the EU to pass anything when it only takes one of 27 (and growing) member states to disagree.

Say a new law is proposed that is clearly for the good of us all, and Luxembourg with a population of less than half a million decide it doesn't suit them, how can it be reasonable that they veto the other 26?

Majority rule has long been a part of all modern day democracies as it is the only reasonable way of dealing with a lack of animosity.

Negotiating opt outs and limits of central power makes far more sense in a broader union, the veto is too cruder power in such a large body. Only wish that I could have faith that one person in the media understood the treaty, I can't make head nor tail of the serious consequences of its ratification, the whole thing is played off as a contest between the xenophobes and the anti-xenophobes.

[Webbo]

This treaty means that decisions will be made on our behalf by people who don't necessarily live in this country so won't be effected, who we don't know the identity of, who we haven't voted in and cannot vote out.

You don't have to be xenophobic to be against that.

[Guest lcfc80]

This treaty means that decisions will be made on our behalf by people who don't necessarily live in this country so won't be effected, who we don't know the identity of, who we haven't voted in and cannot vote out.

You don't have to be xenophobic to be against that.

that sir basically sums it up in laymans term, spot on. I couldn't give a shit if Lisa wants me to convince her. She asked for facts, i gave her facts. she has yet to bring any substance to the thread apart from a little bit she read on Wikipedia whilst wearing blinkers. have a good one im going pub

[Guest]

At the last election Labour promised us a referendum on this.However on your argument none of us should have voted anyway unless we'd read all the manifestos of all the parties.

The Labour party promised us a referendum on the European Constitution that was thrown out by the Dutch and the French. The Lisbon Treaty is the amended version, and Labour say that they didn't therefore promise a vote on that one.

that sir basically sums it up in laymans term, spot on. I couldn't give a shit if Lisa wants me to convince her. She asked for facts, i gave her facts. she has yet to bring any substance to the thread apart from a little bit she read on Wikipedia whilst wearing blinkers. have a good one im going pub

Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Nice try.

You really don't get it, do you.

Pathetic.

[TrickyTrev]

This treaty means that decisions will be made on our behalf by people who don't necessarily live in this country so won't be effected, who we don't know the identity of, who we haven't voted in and cannot vote out.

You don't have to be xenophobic to be against that.

I didn't say you have to be xenophobic to be disturbed by the anti-democratic tendencies of the EU. I said that it is impossible to find any serious debate on the issue in the English media because one side is so clearly xenophobic, others take the opposing view in order to just distance themselves. There is no grown up debate about Europe and it is incredibly annoying, there are genuine discussions to be had about the trade off between the dilution of democratic power and the clear economic benefits.

[Daggers]

This treaty means that decisions will be made on our behalf by people who don't necessarily live in this country so won't be effected, who we don't know the identity of, who we haven't voted in and cannot vote out.

You don't have to be xenophobic to be against that.

Not the fucking Scottish?!