World Recession not affecting the richest?

[dave the caveman]

Apologies, I must be very bad at getting my point across. Otherwise I'm suprised by the level of support for communism.

In principle, becoming wealthy is relatively simple yes, but if you think it's equally simple for all then I fear you are seriously delusional. Even if you gave all people equal education, nationality, similar intelligence and a functioning social background, you'd see great differences.

I don't disagree with you. Take your hypothetical scenario and apply it to the context of this thread. Should those who have made money and got ahead of the pack financially, be cut back and have some of their money given to those who have fared worse? And if yes, how could you justify that?

No, the people that would know how to invest £1000 or less (or those that get lucky gambling) would be successful and get rich first. They would typically be the opportunistic small-time entrepreneurs or the skilled manipulators.

Even better, the same question for this scenario.

[Trav Le Bleu]

So you not only want to promote the ridiculous concept of equal distribution of wealth (as opposed to fair distribution) but in typically Leftist fashion you even want to decide how we spend it.

I really don't know what the watch and "trinket" industries are worth in relation to either new or old but what I do know is that they represent one hell of a lot of jobs, many of them skilled and in numerous countries of the world. Not to mention shops, markets, fairs, hotel foyers etc. Furthermore the evidence I've read lately suggests that investment in good watches and bijouterie has often proved wise with many leading makes of watches increasing fairly significantly in value.

As for the watches that "don't work" a good many people buy thm to preserve the skills of the old repairers or to develop skills themselves in the absence of repairing artisans who seem to be disappearing dramatically along with other skilled crafts thanks to the lack of investment in production industries such as building cruise liners, despite the massive boon that is going on.

Another reason for buying old watches is to use the parts as templates for other parts and that is by no means the only reason.. While the Labour Party seem to delight in destroying bits of history there are plenty of others who would rather preserve it - and that too provides a reasonable livng for some of them in various ways, writing books and pamphlets, lecturing, auctioneering, portering and ebay selling, often by the disabled.

What do you suggest instead? That we all follow the wise council of the Left - twats like Grin-and-Blair-It who waste our nations billions (but never his own millions) on phoney wars or Gordon Brown who, despite every expert imaginable warning him to the contrary, decided to sell a vast portion of the nation's gold at a pittance of a price before the widely predicted and logical boom that followed.

Very convincing, particularly the example of Good Christian Blair! Yes, sod the indulgence of people buying $300 watches but lets hear it forLabour-inspired bombing of countries instead and ignore the amount of food, medicine or education that little expense might buy worldwide.

As for wealth distribution don't get me started on that? If a diligent man chooses to educate himself, take risks, invest in his own efforts and create jobs in his own company then why the hell should he subsidise the bloke who prefers a trip to the betting shop, a tin of wacky baccy or to piss the evening's beer up against the wall?

Yes, you got my number all right?

I used old watches as an example - to my mind any watch that tells the time has value. Beyond that it's pretention and show... which, no wait... you accuse Labour of?

As far as saying wealth SHOULD be equally distributed I said nothing of the sort. I merely wondered how it would work out. I believe that if you work hard you will never find yourself without... but you won't necessarily get rich. There are subsistance farmers in developing countries that work 10 times harder than investment bankers and have jack all chance of ever being anything other than they are no matter how hard they work. Such is the world. As Reynard said, money makes money much easier than hard graft.

I have no idea why anyone would want more than they could possibly use though - the whole idea is alien to me.

[Thracian]

I have no idea why anyone would want more than they could possibly use though - the whole idea is alien to me.

And if the Communist ideologists have no more idea than you have then why would anyone support them?

How much money takes you beyond what you can use? And who's to judge? Any more than who is to judge the merits of how you earn it and the worthiness of how you spend it - be it the hourly earnings of an honest labourer, the vested-interest prescriptions of a doctor, the distasteful bonuses of a banker, the learned manipulations of a lawyer, or the lucky winner of the lottery?

Each of us has our hand in life and it is up to us to play it as best we can. Steven Hawking might understandably have quit given the hand he was dealt but look what he's made of his life in such devastating circumstances. So stop feeling sorry for folk and wipe out the envy Trav and, whatever it is you want for your own life, just do it.

How much someone can use is up to them. Some might well waste it but we see enough of that from the politicians I suspect you support so who has the right to call the tune? But others might not waste a penny.

They may well use every penny to create a company, to provide lucrative jobs, to invest in the offices of expansion to create still more worthwhile jobs and to pay for the delegatory support that will allow them to mentor other potential entrepreneurs so that they too go on to create companies, and jobs and even more entrepreneurs.

And all those successful, hard-working people might use some of their earnings to buy quality private educaton for their children who might themselves go on to be succcessful hardworking people who eventually invest huge sums of money in still more people.

And what do you get from anything invested in the guy who gambles his pennies away, who assaults his body with drugs and who pisses his benefits up the wall? You get sod all. And you'd get sod all if you gave him £50,000.

I know. I actually gave someone a four-figure wedge last year. He stole off me as a thankyou and wasted every spare penny on beer and weed. Welcome to the real world Trav and if you want more examples just ask.

Me I'm off to find a hard-working friend who's just been battered with a crowbar in front of her kids by the sort of thugs you'd probably supply with a sub, though from the taxpayer's pocket ather than your own.

They've robbed her of the efforts of her labours and, as usual, the apologist society that the do-gooders and human rightists have created will abdicate all responsibility, do sod-all and she will be left to pick up the pieces on her own.

Well, I'm going to help pick her off the ground and help restock her business for free if she'll let me. And, no, I'm not rich either. I've just got a little bit more than I need to use right now. So that's how I'll use it, enchallah, unless you object or perhaps want to help her yourself?

And if I had millions I'd do it some more. But I'd be choosy who I helped. Wasters are wasters and when they're the sort who would whack a woman with a crowbar they'd be out of my society in the morning once and for all. Equality? You must be f.....g joking.

[Thracian]

The Tories backed the war too Thrac.

And to their eternal shame. But it was Blair who made up the lies to justify it.

[Zingari]

And to their eternal shame. But it was Blair who made up the lies to justify it.

He didn't make up the lies , he was fed them by the global puppet masters who fed them to the Americans as well

Do you honestly believe anything would have been different whoever had been in PM ?

[Thracian]

He didn't make up the lies , he was fed them by the global puppet masters who fed them to the Americans as well

Do you honestly believe anything would have been different whoever had been in PM ?

Blair to my certain knowledge has plenty of people in military intelligence who could check out any feed from anywhere. Whether he ever wanted to find out the truth is another matter. To speculate on what others might have done is exactly that and completely worthless.

[Webbo]

Each of us has our hand in life and it is up to us to play it as best we can.

10/10

[Zingari]

Blair to my certain knowledge has plenty of people in military intelligence who could check out any feed from anywhere. Whether he ever wanted to find out the truth is another matter. To speculate on what others might have done is exactly that and completely worthless.

it's not really speculation , the war with iraq was planned well before 911 ,

and maybe Blair could have checked out many things , but whatever he may or may not have done , the results would have been the same , because the information he or anyone would have got would have been exactly the same.

and that is the war was inevitable , because the masters had deemed it so

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-01-10/politics/oneill.bush_1_roomful-of-deaf-people-education-of-paul-o-neill-national-security-council-meeting?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

[Thracian]

it's not really speculation , the war with iraq was planned well before 911 ,

and maybe Blair could have checked out many things , but whatever he may or may not have done , the results would have been the same , because the information he or anyone would have got would have been exactly the same.

and that is the war was inevitable , because the masters had deemed it so

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-01-10/politics/oneill.bush_1_roomful-of-deaf-people-education-of-paul-o-neill-national-security-council-meeting?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

So are you also confirming what I've said all along, that we were governed by a man so unscrupulous that, for the sake of power and fame, he'd deceive the British people either because he had no mind of his own, because he didn't want to queer his soon-to-be-gold-lined pitch with the US or because he hadn't the courage of his so-called convictions?

Because I'd remind you that Good Christian Blair made much of the supposed fact that he answered to a far higher authority than George Bush and what an irony it would be if he has to answer for that in time to come.

You make all the excuses for the guy that you like. But don't expect me to do the same. I recognised him as a forked tongued liar and bullshitter from day one - and you could add his scandalous deceit over the immigration numbers if you want further evidence.

[Trav Le Bleu]

And if the Communist ideologists have no more idea than you have then why would anyone support them?

How much money takes you beyond what you can use? And who's to judge? Any more than who is to judge the merits of how you earn it and the worthiness of how you spend it - be it the hourly earnings of an honest labourer, the vested-interest prescriptions of a doctor, the distasteful bonuses of a banker, the learned manipulations of a lawyer, or the lucky winner of the lottery?

Each of us has our hand in life and it is up to us to play it as best we can. Steven Hawking might understandably have quit given the hand he was dealt but look what he's made of his life in such devastating circumstances. So stop feeling sorry for folk and wipe out the envy Trav and, whatever it is you want for your own life, just do it.

How much someone can use is up to them. Some might well waste it but we see enough of that from the politicians I suspect you support so who has the right to call the tune? But others might not waste a penny.

They may well use every penny to create a company, to provide lucrative jobs, to invest in the offices of expansion to create still more worthwhile jobs and to pay for the delegatory support that will allow them to mentor other potential entrepreneurs so that they too go on to create companies, and jobs and even more entrepreneurs.

And all those successful, hard-working people might use some of their earnings to buy quality private educaton for their children who might themselves go on to be succcessful hardworking people who eventually invest huge sums of money in still more people.

And what do you get from anything invested in the guy who gambles his pennies away, who assaults his body with drugs and who pisses his benefits up the wall? You get sod all. And you'd get sod all if you gave him £50,000.

I know. I actually gave someone a four-figure wedge last year. He stole off me as a thankyou and wasted every spare penny on beer and weed. Welcome to the real world Trav and if you want more examples just ask.

Me I'm off to find a hard-working friend who's just been battered with a crowbar in front of her kids by the sort of thugs you'd probably supply with a sub, though from the taxpayer's pocket ather than your own.

They've robbed her of the efforts of her labours and, as usual, the apologist society that the do-gooders and human rightists have created will abdicate all responsibility, do sod-all and she will be left to pick up the pieces on her own.

Well, I'm going to help pick her off the ground and help restock her business for free if she'll let me. And, no, I'm not rich either. I've just got a little bit more than I need to use right now. So that's how I'll use it, enchallah, unless you object or perhaps want to help her yourself?

And if I had millions I'd do it some more. But I'd be choosy who I helped. Wasters are wasters and when they're the sort who would whack a woman with a crowbar they'd be out of my society in the morning once and for all. Equality? You must be f.....g joking.

Yes Thrac you pillock - I pay people to attack the weak and vulnerable, that's my whole purpose in life. How you arrived at that little kernal of wisdom from me saying that I believed that 100s of billions of pounds in the possession of very few people was probably a little greedy... your logic process amazes me. For the record I have stood up to the likes of thug you speak of, been the victim of them when defending the weak and vulnerable and ended up with a trip to hospital. Which is ironic, cos apparently, I funded them!

And are you saying that I don't work hard? Well screw you Thrac.

I have only ever claimed dole for 2 weeks in my life - and that was after being a couple of months out of work, my longest period without. I've never sponged off the state, in fact I've gone out of my way to unnecessarily burden it. I've never been late paying a bill to anyone and always been content with what I have.

And you should try finding a job for my deaf wife that truly matches her abilities. As it is she's a cleaner, but as her previous employer once said she would have been a manager at the company if it wasn't for the fact she was deaf. Now people will say that shouldn't stop someone, but it does, doesn't it, unless the company also pay for someone to translate everything for her. In this current climate there's no company going to go anywhere near that. They might put on a show of "equal opportunities", but the truth is that there is no such thing.

You cite Hawking as "what anyone can achieve". Yes, he has achieved a lot overcoming motor neurone disease, but look at his privilaged launch pad. He came from a family of scientists and was already studying at Cambridge before his symptoms started to surface. What he then went on to achieve can't be denied, but the simple fact remains that Mufasa Bezangwe from Umpati village in the darkest Congo is not ever going to get that chance. By your definition, he's a lazy wastral, rising at 5am to check the cattle haven't died in the night, walking 10 miles to get some water, walking 10 miles back carrying it. Watering the crops, tilling the ground... I don't know exactly what they do, I'm not out there, but I'm sure that they work as hard as me and you and will NEVER get the chance to better themselves.

Even in this country events can conspire against a person. There's no gaurentee, as I said earlier but which you ignored, that hard work will bring you riches. Hard work that has been poorly advised, such as openning a pork butchers in Golders Green can bring you ruin. In general though, hard work will always keep a roof over your head and a food in your belly.

And who are you to criticise me for being satisfied with that?

Oh yes, and I'm not a communist, I'm apolitical because I'm not so blinkered to believe that only one human ideology can be right... even tories sometimes go against their party and so do labour and liberals. I blindly suggest that everything Cameron or Clegg or Milliband (and I had to wiki that cos I couldn't remember who was leader at the moment ) or any other political leader says is the right thing to be doing is just plain dumb.

Now make your reply if you will, but you'll not get any more out of me. It's not that I can't think how to counter your arguments, it's not that I don't have the time, it's not even that I can't be bothered, it's more that there's no point reasoning with the unreasonable.

[MrsJohnMurphy]

Yes Thrac you pillock - I pay people to attack the weak and vulnerable, that's my whole purpose in life. How you arrived at that little kernal of wisdom from me saying that I believed that 100s of billions of pounds in the possession of very few people was probably a little greedy... your logic process amazes me. For the record I have stood up to the likes of thug you speak of, been the victim of them when defending the weak and vulnerable and ended up with a trip to hospital. Which is ironic, cos apparently, I funded them!

And are you saying that I don't work hard? Well screw you Thrac.

I have only ever claimed dole for 2 weeks in my life - and that was after being a couple of months out of work, my longest period without. I've never sponged off the state, in fact I've gone out of my way to unnecessarily burden it. I've never been late paying a bill to anyone and always been content with what I have.

And you should try finding a job for my deaf wife that truly matches her abilities. As it is she's a cleaner, but as her previous employer once said she would have been a manager at the company if it wasn't for the fact she was deaf. Now people will say that shouldn't stop someone, but it does, doesn't it, unless the company also pay for someone to translate everything for her. In this current climate there's no company going to go anywhere near that. They might put on a show of "equal opportunities", but the truth is that there is no such thing.

You cite Hawking as "what anyone can achieve". Yes, he has achieved a lot overcoming motor neurone disease, but look at his privilaged launch pad. He came from a family of scientists and was already studying at Cambridge before his symptoms started to surface. What he then went on to achieve can't be denied, but the simple fact remains that Mufasa Bezangwe from Umpati village in the darkest Congo is not ever going to get that chance. By your definition, he's a lazy wastral, rising at 5am to check the cattle haven't died in the night, walking 10 miles to get some water, walking 10 miles back carrying it. Watering the crops, tilling the ground... I don't know exactly what they do, I'm not out there, but I'm sure that they work as hard as me and you and will NEVER get the chance to better themselves.

Even in this country events can conspire against a person. There's no gaurentee, as I said earlier but which you ignored, that hard work will bring you riches. Hard work that has been poorly advised, such as openning a pork butchers in Golders Green can bring you ruin. In general though, hard work will always keep a roof over your head and a food in your belly.

And who are you to criticise me for being satisfied with that?

Oh yes, and I'm not a communist, I'm apolitical because I'm not so blinkered to believe that only one human ideology can be right... even tories sometimes go against their party and so do labour and liberals. I blindly suggest that everything Cameron or Clegg or Milliband (and I had to wiki that cos I couldn't remember who was leader at the moment ) or any other political leader says is the right thing to be doing is just plain dumb.

Now make your reply if you will, but you'll not get any more out of me. It's not that I can't think how to counter your arguments, it's not that I don't have the time, it's not even that I can't be bothered, it's more that there's no point reasoning with the unreasonable.

I love you Bro !!!

[Zingari]

So are you also confirming what I've said all along, that we were governed by a man so unscrupulous that, for the sake of power and fame, he'd deceive the British people either because he had no mind of his own, because he didn't want to queer his soon-to-be-gold-lined pitch with the US or because he hadn't the courage of his so-called convictions?

Because I'd remind you that Good Christian Blair made much of the supposed fact that he answered to a far higher authority than George Bush and what an irony it would be if he has to answer for that in time to come.

You make all the excuses for the guy that you like. But don't expect me to do the same. I recognised him as a forked tongued liar and bullshitter from day one - and you could add his scandalous deceit over the immigration numbers if you want further evidence.

Yes, i am agreeing with you and i too believe that he was unscrupulous and am not making any excuses for him or anyone else and i hope both he and Bush rot in hell for their crimes against humanity . I really am not trying to justify any of his actions

As for the "higher authority" bit , I'll let you think a bit longer on how this religious excuse has been used throughout the centuries by religious leaders to con the gullible masses .

Where we differ is in your belief that anything could or would have been different with a different British government or PM .

I know you think it's all speculation , but it really isn't . Had the tories been in power ( or whoever ) the same external pressures would have been brought upon them to accept the global military industrial complex ( or whatever you want to call the real rulers of the world ) assertion that war in Afghanistan and Iraq was necessary to fight the phoney " war on terror "

In conclusion , i agree with you about Blair , I disagree that anything could have been different . Parliament is no more than a Punch and Judy sideshow to distract us from the real villains in the world .

ps read my sig and listen to what Eisenhower said in his farewell address in 1961 ( it's on youtube ), you will see he had had a glimpse of what was happening in the world and unfortunately his warnings have been ignored because since then no-one has had the deep understanding of how the military/ CIA /Secret Services work ( except perhaps for JFK who paid the ultimate price for standing up to them )

[Thracian]

A) I pay people to attack the weak and vulnerable, that's my whole purpose in life. How you arrived at that little kernal of wisdom from me saying that I believed that 100s of billions of pounds in the possession of very few people was probably a little greedy... your logic process amazes me. For the record I have stood up to the likes of thug you speak of, been the victim of them when defending the weak and vulnerable and ended up with a trip to hospital. Which is ironic, cos apparently, I funded them!

a) That's exactly what the first paragraph of your original script speculated might be a good idea or are you suggesting that everyone would suddenly be equal except people who whack women with crowbars? If so that's a pretty rapid breakdown in your extended theory of giving everyone the same financial opportunity. Your original statement was entirely unambiguous - it talked about money being divided equally - it didn't contain any reference to "a few people possessing billions and the merits of that or otherwise). As for standing up to thugs that is entirely irrelevent to the terms of your speculative suggestion. However the fact that you've had such an experience like most everyone else it seems, only confirms the state of our "apologist" nation in their attitude to tackling such behaviour.

B) And are you saying that I don't work hard? Well screw you Thrac.

b) Did I say/imply that you didn't work hard or did I actually refer to an how an honest worker might have every right to choose how to spent his money.

C) And you should try finding a job for my deaf wife that truly matches her abilities. As it is she's a cleaner, but as her previous employer once said she would have been a manager at the company if it wasn't for the fact she was deaf.

a) More envy and ungratefulness. Are you somehow suggesting there's something wrong with being a cleaner? Cos to me it's a perfectly respectable job and one that's pretty important to the way of our world. I know about deafness, my wife is parially deaf too - and she's undergone major brain surgery -so I doubt that anyone would give her a job of any kind. So we made jobs ourselves. What's to stop yours doing the same if she's as clever as you suggest. For all the reasons I've experienced I know the problems faced by people with serious handicaps but by what yardstick goes that mean someone else somehow owes her a job other than perhaps the Government? I've seen the employers side of the disability problem and it can be hell on earth. And potentially seriously threatening to a smallish company. With a real sense of fairness that could be sorted but it won't be because companies seem obliged to be social servants these days whatever the attitude of their employees which can be utterly predatory.

D) Re Hawking.

a) I didn't realise Hawking had a privileged start and should really have begun life with your "equal" advance. I wonder if all the Yakubus earning thousands of pounds a week in British football also had a head start or if some of them were actually like Mufasa Bezangwe. The two destitute Nigerian villagers I talked with recently were both set to train as doctors while, in Tunisia, university tuition is free with the cost of books/materials works out at around £320. Sounds like they've got a fair chance and that a good many of them might potentially take the jobs of British students when the time comes.

E) Even in this country events can conspire against a person. There's no gaurantee, as I said earlier but which you ignored, that hard work will bring you riches. Hard work that has been poorly advised, such as openning a pork butchers in Golders Green can bring you ruin. In general though, hard work will always keep a roof over your head and a food in your belly.

a) What has advice got to do with anything? We've all got brains to think for ourselves. Life is full of good and bad pathways and every one of them offers the opportunity to learn something valuable. I can cite the examples of lots of people who have made something of themselves from nowhere. But bad outcomes are not confined to the poor - in fact the risks get higher as the stakes get bigger. Three times in my life I've lost five-figure sums outright but I didn't moan and complain about guarantees and I certainly didn't get or expect any sympathy. Nor did I envy those who fared better. I just got up and tried again, giving thanks for the life and breath in my body and the recovery of my beloved wife..

F) Oh yes, and I'm not a communist.

a) It was you mentioned the communistic basis of your speculative suggestion.

,

[Trav Le Bleu]

I love you Bro !!!

Straight back at ya!

[shen]

I don't disagree with you. Take your hypothetical scenario and apply it to the context of this thread. Should those who have made money and got ahead of the pack financially, be cut back and have some of their money given to those who have fared worse? And if yes, how could you justify that?

Well being in a country with progressive income tax does colour my view somewhat. Now I'm not saying that the people that navigate the capitalistic system should get 'punished', but socio-economic equality does eliminate or at least reduce many societal issues. My girlfriend told me the other day about a summary report about research on income equality vis-a-vis anticipated and experienced happiness that showed people are happier when they have similar income. That's not communism, that's social democracy and wholly justifiable.

My main gripe initially though was with the rich people, billionaires if you like, that have not earned their money (I'll use a fuzzy word for lack of better) 'fairly' and some people on here, including yourself, saying that anyone could become such a wealthy person if one had the given abilities. (By the way, how would you define those abilities?)

I'd like to use an analogy with a footballer like Inzaghi. There's no arguing that he was/is successful at the very highest stage too. But how many times has he not made us scream out in disgust with his dives or the 'illegal' goals he has gotten through the manipulation of the offside rule? Without a doubt there are more skillful footballers playing in Italy that will never achieve that kind of success. Could be because they weren't at the right clubs when young, they didn't have the right connections, were ill the day the Milan scout visited or because they didn't have that, let's say, cheating streak Inzaghi has. Point is there are so many insurmountable or unforeseeable objects preventing regular Joe getting rich even if he had a magic billionaire idea. The odd success story is extraordinary and can by no means be applied as a rule.

[FoxyPV]

Point is there are so many insurmountable or unforeseeable objects preventing regular Joe getting rich even if he had a magic billionaire idea. The odd success story is extraordinary and can by no means be applied as a rule.

It's not only what you make of your situation but what others make of your situation. You can only get so far without the help of others. This is where those from better socio-economic backgrounds have a big advantage over most.

Thrac - I don't what the problem is with trying to redress some of the imbalances that come with what particular class you were born into.

[Webbo]

Life's not fair. Some people are born into wealth most of us aren't. That's nobody's fault it's just the luck of the draw.

I don't earn a great living, far from it, though I'm a good tradesman I'm a crap businessman, if I had more drive and ambition I could earn a lot more. There's no point blaming anyone else for that, I'm not the victim of some posh conspiracy. People need to take responsibility for their own lives.

[FoxyPV]

Life's not fair. Some people are born into wealth most of us aren't. That's nobody's fault it's just the luck of the draw.

I don't earn a great living, far from it, though I'm a good tradesman I'm a crap businessman, if I had more drive and ambition I could earn a lot more. There's no point blaming anyone else for that, I'm not the victim of some posh conspiracy. People need to take responsibility for their own lives.

Why should someone benefit more than you solely based on the luck of birth? You can take all the responsibility for your actions that you want but because someone is born into a higher social class, they will (in most cases) enjoy advantages of which you can only dream.

[Webbo]

Why should someone benefit more than you solely based on the luck of birth? You can take all the responsibility for your actions that you want but because someone is born into a higher social class, they will (in most cases) enjoy advantages of which you can only dream.

Making rich people poorer just for the sake of equality seems like needless spite to me. They've got money good luck to them. If I earned a fortune I'd want my kids to benefit from it rather then some (possibly undeserving) stranger.

I've never really understood the politics of envy.

[Thracian]

It's not only what you make of your situation but what others make of your situation. You can only get so far without the help of others. This is where those from better socio-economic backgrounds have a big advantage over most.

Thrac - I don't what the problem is with trying to redress some of the imbalances that come with what particular class you were born into.

====

I wasn't born into a class and don't look at people in terms of class/money/status but in terms of what they are in themselves. A cleaner can impress/earn my respect me as easily as a lawyer and a nurse as easily as a knight of the realm and I've met them all.

If you've got some masterplan for righting the financial wrongs of our world I'm all ears but you've seen how easily Trav's theory fell apart, just as mentioned in George Orwell's 1984. Everyone was equal when he first spoke. But then he didn't sound too happy about the woman batterers yet assuming they'd get penalised it's a case of some being more equal than others straight away which is exactly what happens in practice as you can see in any communist country.

So what next Reynard? Are you saying that someone shouldn't inherit wealth? That you shouldn't be able to do your damndest to give your kids a good start in life just because someone who doesn't give a shit about their kids decides to spend his life and money backing horses? Where's the fairness in that?

What's your solution?

If you wouldn't fan the flames of envy and class discrimination? How would you preside over a truly fair administration?

[shen]

Making rich people poorer just for the sake of equality seems like needless spite to me. They've got money good luck to them. If I earned a fortune I'd want my kids to benefit from it rather then some (possibly undeserving) stranger.

I've never really understood the politics of envy.

It's not about making the rich poorer, it's about making the wealthy and resourceful carry a heavier financial burden in society than the less wealthy and resourceful. Hardcore liberal capitalists will no doubt argue that it stifles the competitiveness of the wealthy elite, those allegedly responsible for economic growth in capitalist societies, a logic I can follow, but find way too narrow-minded and short-sighted.

[BoneDog]

This is how I see it :

The richest of the rich are getting richer because of all the loopholes all over the world that give them tax breaks (among many other benefits).

The poor are getting poorer because the richest are manufacturing global price hikes in essentials like electricity, gas, food etc. (that we buy from them), and at the same time many of us are taking big wage cuts and losing jobs, whilst having to pay more for things we need. The gap between rich and poor is widening every day now, and not by accident.

Food prices are soon going up and it won't be long before the majority of people give every single penny they earn to some big corporation or another and have no money or time left for leisure.

Soon the working class won't even be able to save £10 a week because every single penny they have will will be gone on gas, electricity, water, food, medicines and other essentials. Yeah, you'll be able to struggle through, but everything we earned will have been given to the few massive companies that will own everything and most of us will be left with no wealth to leave behind on our deathbeds because it will have been extorted by ruthless barstads with no affection for humanity whatsoever! And those same ruthless barstads and their future families will keep on lording it over the masses for eternity.

But hey-ho what can you do? Despair?

Hell no, follow some words of wisdom - "If you realize that you have enough, you are truly rich". But hold on, if I believe in those words then am I letting the barstads subjugate me. Ooooh decisions, dicisions.

I'm babbling Lynn.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Why should someone benefit more than you solely based on the luck of birth? You can take all the responsibility for your actions that you want but because someone is born into a higher social class, they will (in most cases) enjoy advantages of which you can only dream.

Being born into wealth or otherwise is no more fair/unfair than being born good looking or ugly, intelligent or stupid, tall or short, likeable or a ****. It's just the way the cookie crumbles. Deal with it.

[Zingari]

Just because there are millions in the world who are starving or homeless etc and there are millions in the world with enough money to buy diamond studded dog collars and lear jets , I see no reason to change the tax system a little to redistribute the weath . it's just bloody minded envy of the worst kind .

If people want to get rich , they can bloody well go out and win the lottery or something , and don't tell me it's that hard , thousands have done it now , some of them investing as little as £1 .

[OzFox]

The richest of the rich are getting richer because of all the loopholes all over the world that give them tax breaks (among many other benefits).

They are also protected by the current legal system. As an example, I was recently sued for half a million dollars damages by a crooked former boss. The case had no basis in reality, and was purely brought out of spite. Nonetheless, once you're sucked in you have to defend it with "the legal process" which involves months of "discovery" and various other rorts designed to make lawyers a packet. So after nine stressful months, and about $100,000 in legal fees, I settled out of court. To go to the supreme court (here in Australia) and defend the case would have cost a further $100,000 minimum, with no guarantee of a successful result or that the plaintiff wouldn't just back down at a suitable moment. Needless to say, the plaintiff was a wealthy man and could easily bear the cost of lawyers and barristers.

Most western legal systems are designed for the rich by the rich. Unless you're wealthy and can afford to go the distance, you haven't a prayer of getting justice in a civil case. Further, there's no hope of the system ever being changed to something cheaper and fairer (like they have in Germany) because the laws are designed by lawyers who have no wish to lose their gravy train. Politicians also have no interest in change, because many are former lawyers themselves.

Quite simply, outrageous.