Mystery of WTC 7 - Conspiracy

[l444ry]

ah i see , yes i suppose there could be some amount of doctoring of all these videos , that is a good point , but i till maintain it's a controlled demolition , by the judgement of my own eyes and more importantly the diligent work of AE911

ps it still sounds like "7's exploding" to me

Would be interested to know what you think of this link, Zinger.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_WTC7_explosion_video

[shen]

Would be interested to know what you think of this link, Zinger.

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_WTC7_explosion_video

All valid points they make and I concur with their conclusion: Without additional information, this video is pretty much worthless.

[Zingari]

OK l444ry I've looked at it and i'm starting to think we are all chasing elusive shadows , and i can only see one benefactor of that scenario

Basically it looks like a slick attempt at debunking, but in actual fact is saying nothing but everything is inconclusive

The “conclusion” says nothing more than without more evidence it’s inconclusive, it looks to me a classic case of double speak.

What we have is obviously a genuine piece of film footage from the actual day (I’m going to assume that much) and then we have the notion that somehow an unknown conspiracy theorist has somehow with tremendous effort and skulduggery made this look as though it ties into a grand conspiracy.

To what purpose are unknown owners of film footage, taken on the day, attempting to do this?

What profit is there for them to make such an attempt to fool us?

Those that readily condemn conspiracy theories never give us the answer as to what does anyone gain from all the hard work that would be needed to contrive such ludicrous assertions.

It’s easy to see why governments could afford the time and energy needed to fill us full of disinformation, but why do so many ordinary people suddenly appear from nowhere to try and trick us at every available opportunity whenever the government is suspected of deceit? It really makes no sense to me.

What profit is being gained by all the diligent architects and engineers who consistently doubt the official version (other than losing their livelihood their reputation on many occasion and probably worse on others)?

The answer is nothing but a life of misery for speaking the truth as they see it and it seems a pretty poor pay off to me

We have the possibility that the government is capable of and has a history of being masters of deceit , or an alternative theory that every Tom Dick and Harry is also out to trip us up at every opportunity , and I think I know who the likely culprits are.

Let’s for a moment imagine that the events of 911 did not happen in NY but happened in Moscow

Would we really believe the Russian government who told us that a steel framed building simply fell down due to fire ( remember it has never happened before )

And we can see the small fires and we can see the freefall nd symmetrical nature of the fall

We also hear Russian dissidents claiming it to be an inside job and claiming to have evidence of explosives etc and all the film footage available that indicates controlled demolition .

The Russians blamed another country then attacked that country as a pretext

Which group of conspiracy theorists would most of us believe in this instance

sorry to be so long winded , but i really can't explain myself any other way and there is still so much more that i'd like to add but i rather doubt that this much will get read

Nice to have you taking a genuine interest though,and not just making sarcastic comments ( sorry if that's not how they were intended) and i really do mean that

[Rincewind]

what point? sell books?

[Zingari]

what point? sell books?

Yeah right , show me all the stinking rich conspiracy theorists. Can you in actual fact name one ?

I believe you try to sell your own books . Have you made a vast fortune yet ? No, then try making up conspiracy theories and see how easy it is to make money that way , You'll be sorely disappointed

Most of the stuff is freely available to read on the web and all the DVDs are uploaded to youtube to be freely viewed.

People like Kevin Ryan , Kevin Barrett , Richard Gage etc have suffered nothing but abuse and loss of livelihood for their beliefs.

Surely it would be easier to make money writing Dan Brown type crap than trying to piece together government deceit at great personal cost .

But if you believe there's gold in them thar conspiracies , go right ahead

edit;

I'm not saying i don't like Dan Brown crap though

[shen]

OK l444ry I've looked at it and i'm starting to think we are all chasing elusive shadows , and i can only see one benefactor of that scenario

Basically it looks like a slick attempt at debunking, but in actual fact is saying nothing but everything is inconclusive

The “conclusion” says nothing more than without more evidence it’s inconclusive, it looks to me a classic case of double speak.

What we have is obviously a genuine piece of film footage from the actual day (I’m going to assume that much) and then we have the notion that somehow an unknown conspiracy theorist has somehow with tremendous effort and skulduggery made this look as though it ties into a grand conspiracy.

To what purpose are unknown owners of film footage, taken on the day, attempting to do this?

What profit is there for them to make such an attempt to fool us?

Those that readily condemn conspiracy theories never give us the answer as to what does anyone gain from all the hard work that would be needed to contrive such ludicrous assertions.

It’s easy to see why governments could afford the time and energy needed to fill us full of disinformation, but why do so many ordinary people suddenly appear from nowhere to try and trick us at every available opportunity whenever the government is suspected of deceit? It really makes no sense to me.

What profit is being gained by all the diligent architects and engineers who consistently doubt the official version (other than losing their livelihood their reputation on many occasion and probably worse on others)?

The answer is nothing but a life of misery for speaking the truth as they see it and it seems a pretty poor pay off to me

We have the possibility that the government is capable of and has a history of being masters of deceit , or an alternative theory that every Tom Dick and Harry is also out to trip us up at every opportunity , and I think I know who the likely culprits are.

Let’s for a moment imagine that the events of 911 did not happen in NY but happened in Moscow

Would we really believe the Russian government who told us that a steel framed building simply fell down due to fire ( remember it has never happened before )

And we can see the small fires and we can see the freefall nd symmetrical nature of the fall

We also hear Russian dissidents claiming it to be an inside job and claiming to have evidence of explosives etc and all the film footage available that indicates controlled demolition .

The Russians blamed another country then attacked that country as a pretext

Which group of conspiracy theorists would most of us believe in this instance

sorry to be so long winded , but i really can't explain myself any other way and there is still so much more that i'd like to add but i rather doubt that this much will get read

Nice to have you taking a genuine interest though,and not just making sarcastic comments ( sorry if that's not how they were intended) and i really do mean that

Sorry to say this, but there are some serious fallacies in your logic. Firstly, when they conclude that the video you posted is inconclusive, they're very much spot on. It's like pictures of Nessie, they're ambiguous, fuzzy and provide precious little information on the issue at hand. Secondly, it's very likely that the video was just another one of thousands of by-stander accounts being uploaded as the whole event was extraordinary. It didn't have to be the owner of the video that started the conspiracy talks, it could have been any random person that saw the video and thought 'hang on, this is good stuff for my theory'. There are schizophrenic nutters out there who believe everything is wired and Big Brother is keeping a close eye on them 24/7, there are trolls who love to cause a stir and there are the gullible ones who will buy into any story as long as it's told in a compelling way. Either way, there is no way this video can be used as evidence of anything unusual in the circumstances.

As for experts giving their view in support of the 'suspicious side', they themselves can be of the sort just described or they are just commenting on the same limited (and possibly selected) evidence that we see too. Is it so hard to think that they've got an opinion on the whole matter as normal persons as well as experts? When you're convinced you're right, you'll likely try to support your own views, which both sides can be accused of doing. As critical as you are of the official version, I feel you should be at least as critical of the sources that support your own view.

If it happened in Moscow, I genuinely believe we wouldn't be discussing it. The fact it happened in New York and involved the WTC is the biggest reason it has gotten so much attention (also conspiracy theory-wise) in my opinion.

[Zingari]

Sorry to say this, but there are some serious fallacies in your logic. Firstly, when they conclude that the video you posted is inconclusive, they're very much spot on. It's like pictures of Nessie, they're ambiguous, fuzzy and provide precious little information on the issue at hand. Secondly, it's very likely that the video was just another one of thousands of by-stander accounts being uploaded as the whole event was extraordinary. It didn't have to be the owner of the video that started the conspiracy talks, it could have been any random person that saw the video and thought 'hang on, this is good stuff for my theory'. There are schizophrenic nutters out there who believe everything is wired and Big Brother is keeping a close eye on them 24/7, there are trolls who love to cause a stir and there are the gullible ones who will buy into any story as long as it's told in a compelling way. Either way, there is no way this video can be used as evidence of anything unusual in the circumstances.

As for experts giving their view in support of the 'suspicious side', they themselves can be of the sort just described or they are just commenting on the same limited (and possibly selected) evidence that we see too. Is it so hard to think that they've got an opinion on the whole matter as normal persons as well as experts? When you're convinced you're right, you'll likely try to support your own views, which both sides can be accused of doing. As critical as you are of the official version, I feel you should be at least as critical of the sources that support your own view.

If it happened in Moscow, I genuinely believe we wouldn't be discussing it. The fact it happened in New York and involved the WTC is the biggest reason it has gotten so much attention (also conspiracy theory-wise) in my opinion.

What most people seem to forget though is that this video along with all the other evidence of deceit is not meant to be taken as conclusive proof of anything; it’s rather just part an incremental layer.

Let me give you an example;

A man comes home early from work and as he gets to the front door he thinks he hears the back door close and footsteps going up the path

He climbs the stairs and sees some of his wife’s clothing on the stairs.

He goes into the bedroom and sees a sock on the floor that is not his

He sees his wife in the shower looking flustered

He sees a stain on the bedclothes

( get the picture ?)

OK ?

Now it would be very easy to dismiss each of those things individually one by one as nothing and ascribe alternative explanations to each of them that could be very plausible indeed , could it not ?

But you could not do that if you take them as a whole set in relation to each other and it’s the incremental nature of the evidence regarding 911 that says more than individual pieces of youtube footage when added to the obvious strangeness of the actual collapse

[Rincewind]

There are a ;ot of people who buy books on the subject besides watching/buying videos going to lectures promotion talks for books. On both sides of the argument. I think on an earlier page I put down the number of books written on the subject. May have been something like 30,000

There are thousands of reports ideas on how this or that could have happened. The majority differing partly or fully and written with the help of experts in all feilds. Not all these have suffered. I could not come to a conlusion just by seeing an hanfull.

[shen]

But you could not do that if you take them as a whole set in relation to each other and it’s the incremental nature of the evidence regarding 911 that says more than individual pieces of youtube footage when added to the obvious strangeness of the actual collapse

But to take your case, there is the inherent danger that the husband suspected it in the first place. What he heard wasn't the back door but the neighbors garage, the sock was his son's, the stain was already there etc. It warped in his mind to fit his pre-conceived suspicion. He'll insist what he witnessed was the true version. He gets a dodgy account from a passing neighbour who doesn't recollect the garage door being open. It MIGHT well have been closed the neighbour says. The man takes this as gospel. The son doesn't recollect misplacing his sock there and to escape trouble for being untidy, he claims it's not his. No-one knows who's stain it is on the sheets, but the man, too clouded by now, refuses to accept that he could have been the culprit.

When you claim this video points to something fishy having happened, you base it on nothing more than your preconceived condition. As some of the debunkers (sorry marko, 'conspiracy doubters') have pointed out, conspiracy believers will have a tendency to grab anything they can, even the least credible and most far-fetched stories, and call them 'clues'.

[topharry123]

I went to a breakfast a while ago here in Texas and the guy who was the main speaker was a guy who had a very high up job in the pentagon who was there when the plane crashed. The pictures he showed of the crash, his version of events, the look on his face throughout and the reaction of his wife who I am sure had heard the story hundreds of times told me that he was telling the truth 100%. You can come up with any conspiracy theories for anything, but when you hear someone talk about a personal experience like that which ruined their lives and killed many people they know it's pretty obvious that it happened in the way it came out. I'm sure some details have not been released, but who needs to know everything? Think the conspiracy theorists need to leave it alone and respect the people that died. It was a truly horrific event and we should remember the people who it affected rather than bringing it up all again with theories, which are all they are, about what may or may not have happened. Yes a lot of details have not been made public, but at the end of the day the terrorist threat has been very real all over the world since 9/11, with our troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to try to alleviate and stamp out terrorism. The story has been told and no amount of proof from theorists will ever change the events as told by the government. Think people should just leave it alone and if forget about trying to prove something that can never be proven.

[shen]

The story has been told and no amount of proof from theorists will ever change the events as told by the government. Think people should just leave it alone and if forget about trying to prove something that can never be proven.

It's now more than 60 years ago since WW2 ended, but new information is still coming to light to this day. Stuff which was unknown to the public for decades. It will not change the death tolls, but it challenges what was previously taken as hard facts and 'truth'. This is of absolutely vital importance. We as a society depend on our history to identify and distinguish ourselves. The way our accounts of history affect our present is staggering. If anything about 9/11 was covered up on purpose, I think it's our duty as citizens to find out about the truth. After all, the consequence of 9/11 has been an even greater invasion into our privacy for 'security reasons', a couple of still ongoing wars and many more lives lost in the name of 'war on terror'.

And don't get me wrong, I can understand where you're coming from. Experiencing it up close and personal adds another horrific dimension to it. I just think that the above mentioned reason still justifies ongoing questioning of the real events.

[Zingari]

I went to a breakfast a while ago here in Texas and the guy who was the main speaker was a guy who had a very high up job in the pentagon who was there when the plane crashed. The pictures he showed of the crash, his version of events, the look on his face throughout and the reaction of his wife who I am sure had heard the story hundreds of times told me that he was telling the truth 100%. You can come up with any conspiracy theories for anything, but when you hear someone talk about a personal experience like that which ruined their lives and killed many people they know it's pretty obvious that it happened in the way it came out. I'm sure some details have not been released, but who needs to know everything? Think the conspiracy theorists need to leave it alone and respect the people that died. It was a truly horrific event and we should remember the people who it affected rather than bringing it up all again with theories, which are all they are, about what may or may not have happened. Yes a lot of details have not been made public, but at the end of the day the terrorist threat has been very real all over the world since 9/11, with our troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to try to alleviate and stamp out terrorism. The story has been told and no amount of proof from theorists will ever change the events as told by the government. Think people should just leave it alone and if forget about trying to prove something that can never be proven.

He should make these pictures freely available then , because as far as i'm aware there are no pictures of a plane hitting the pentagon, and if there are conclusive photos of an actual plane hitting the pentagon it would do a great amount towards putting any conspiracy to bed .As the pentagon is the most securely guarded building in the world , the lack of any photos hitting or approaching it has been one of the greatest debating issues regarding flight 77 for the last 10 years . Surely he can't be unaware of this , can he ?

I didn't really want to get onto all the other anomalies of 911 as it just gets a bit messy , but I'm fairly happy now that most who have wanted to contribute in the debate about WTC7 have done so already , and i'm grateful to everyone to have stayed on topic for 9 pages

[shen]

If there are conclusive photos of an actual plane hitting the pentagon it would do a great amount towards putting any conspiracy to bed .As the pentagon is the most securely guarded building in the world , the lack of any photos hitting or approaching it has been one of the greatest debating issues regarding flight 77 for the last 10 years .

This was one of my main gripes about the 9/11 examination. I found it odd that only very dodgy pictures of the approach/impact were released. They must have security cams all over the place particularly in that area! However, taking into account that it IS the Pentagon, I'm sure they have non-sinister reasons to keep them hidden from the public.

This does a convincing job of debunking the missile attack theories. It certainly made me much less quizzical about the whole issue.

[Zingari]

This was one of my main gripes about the 9/11 examination. I found it odd that only very dodgy pictures of the approach/impact were released. They must have security cams all over the place particularly in that area! However, taking into account that it IS the Pentagon, I'm sure they have non-sinister reasons to keep them hidden from the public.

This does a convincing job of debunking the missile attack theories. It certainly made me much less quizzical about the whole issue.

Surely now after 10 years it's not unreasonable to expect a few clear photographs that would not compromise any security issues they may have .

They were quick enough to release those photos that debunked Thierry Meyssan truck bomb theory , unfortunately they raised more questions than before

[shen]

Surely now after 10 years it's not unreasonable to expect a few clear photographs that would not compromise any security issues they may have .

They were quick enough to release those photos that debunked Thierry Meyssan truck bomb theory , unfortunately they raised more questions than before

Surely the debris, damage and human remains should be enough evidence that it was an aircraft that crashed into the Pentagon.

[Zingari]

Surely the debris, damage and human remains should be enough evidence that it was an aircraft that crashed into the Pentagon.

What debris ?

There are no recognisable parts from a Boeing on the lawn outside , and how come the hole is so small ? and the windows still intact where the wings are supposed to have made contact ? .

It must have gone through the hole like being sucked through a straw . the hole is estimated at around 16 feet across

There explanation being that the plane vapourised on contact would surely have vapourised the passengers , so any body parts found cannot have been inside the plane .

The two explanations are totally contradictory ,

please watch this short video

no debris , no sign of an aircraft , no marks on the lawn ,

[marko]

What debris ?

There are no recognisable parts from a Boeing on the lawn outside , and how come the hole is so small ? and the windows still intact where the wings are supposed to have made contact ? .

It must have gone through the hole like being sucked through a straw . the hole is estimated at around 16 feet across

There explanation being that the plane vapourised on contact would surely have vapourised the passengers , so any body parts found cannot have been inside the plane .

The two explanations are totally contradictory ,

please watch this short video

no debris , no sign of an aircraft , no marks on the lawn ,

Zing, there's clearly debris in this photo - it's indisputable. It also explains why the hole in the Pentagon was size it was.

Pentagon

[Rincewind]

I was wondering how it was done too. As the plane smashes it would become smaller wouldnt it and it depends on the angle too.

The film seemed too presise. Too correct. Everything he said fitted. What got me is even the dumbest kid in class would ask how a plane that size fitted in a small hole.

So for me there must be another expanation. The US Government would not be able to cover up something if it happened sa shown in the film..

[marko]

If anyone fancies a read on the evolution of 9/11 theories

BBC Article

[Zingari]

Zing, there's clearly debris in this photo - it's indisputable. It also explains why the hole in the Pentagon was size it was.

Pentagon

So the windows weren’t broken by the wings ( presumably they were travelling at the same speed as the fuselage ) because the glass was blast proof , but the fuselage managed to pierce itself through 9 layers of reinforced concrete wall .

Take a look for yourself , that is what they are claiming

Did you actually read it or do you just think if the heading says "debunking 911 theories" , that is enough ?

do you seriously believe that the AE911 groups and all the other scientists etc who are seriously questioning the events have not been made aware of "popular mechanics " debunking ?

Claim: Many Pentagon windows remained in one piece—even those just above the point of impact from the Boeing 757 passenger plane. Pentagonstrike.co.uk, an online animation widely circulated in the United States and Europe, claims that photographs showing "intact windows" directly above the crash site prove "a missile" or "a craft much smaller than a 757" struck the Pentagon.

FACT: Some windows near the impact area did indeed survive the crash. But that's what the windows were supposed to do—they're blast-resistant.

Sorry that bit just made me realise these guys are either idiots or paid stooges

Fast forward to around 4:30 minutes ( or preferably watch the whole of in plane sight and ripple effect films ) to hear experts that are not afraid to speak and don't hide behind spurious magazine articles

And I'm not inclined to believe everything in popular mechanics either . They should stick to teaching Barney how to fix his tractor

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/100806popularmechanics.htm

[marko]

I posted it to show the plane debris on the lawn which you were adamant didn't exist.

[Zingari]

I posted it to show the plane debris on the lawn which you were adamant didn't exist.

it's not really enough debris from a massive airliner is it really ? no engines , no wheels , no landing gear , no luggage in fact nothing that cannot be attributed to a lighter metal type drone ( which is what the claim by many is )

it all just magically disappeared into that little hole 16 feet across

that piece of metal is discussed here

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/debris.html

No-one is denying that something hit the pentagon , and that something was probably made out of metal that will obviously leave some evidence , but what is being questioned is whether or not it was a massive airliner , or something else .

but , ok you got me , i'm convinced now , and i'm writing to AE911 and telling them to call off the search now popular mechanics have posted the conclusive picture of a piece twisted metal

[l444ry]

it's not really enough debris from a massive airliner is it really ? no engines , no wheels , no landing gear , no luggage in fact nothing that cannot be attributed to a lighter metal type drone ( which is what the claim by many is )

it all just magically disappeared into that little hole 16 feet across

that piece of metal is discussed here

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/debris.html

No-one is denying that something hit the pentagon , and that something was probably made out of metal that will obviously leave some evidence , but what is being questioned is whether or not it was a massive airliner , or something else .

but , ok you got me , i'm convinced now , and i'm writing to AE911 and telling them to call off the search now popular mechanics have posted the conclusive picture of a piece twisted metal

Maybe eyewitness accounts might sway you, Zingari!! Are you sure that you have an open mind on this matter?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html

[marko]

it's not really enough debris from a massive airliner is it really ? no engines , no wheels , no landing gear , no luggage in fact nothing that cannot be attributed to a lighter metal type drone ( which is what the claim by many is )

it all just magically disappeared into that little hole 16 feet across

that piece of metal is discussed here

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/debris.html

No-one is denying that something hit the pentagon , and that something was probably made out of metal that will obviously leave some evidence , but what is being questioned is whether or not it was a massive airliner , or something else .

but , ok you got me , i'm convinced now , and i'm writing to AE911 and telling them to call off the search now popular mechanics have posted the conclusive picture of a piece twisted metal

There is pictures of the landing gear and the engine. I'm find them later when i've finished my work.

You might want to read the bottom of the link you provided that states such a crash would turn the plane in to confetti. Correct me if i'm wrong, but in the photo I provided, there certainly appears to be lots of other small pieces of debris.

Also, have a read about the rotor in the link you provided. Surely you can't argue that was from a plane?

[Zingari]

Maybe eyewitness accounts might sway you, Zingari!! Are you sure that you have an open mind on this matter?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/witnesses/bart.html

why don't they just put out a video of the plane that hit the pentagon ?

they must have some seeing as how this is the most securely guarded building in the world .

i do not believe it's anything to do with national security , it's because there isn't one .

sorry l444ry i've seen and heard them all ( well lots of them anyway ) before, and you can easily get as many alternative versions anywhere on youtube

eyewitness accounts cannot make a plane do what it is not designed to do , and the steep curve and dive performed by whatever hit the pentagon is not possible by an airliner such as a Boeing 757 .

experienced pilots do not believe it possible , not just me

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/american_77_hijack_impossible.html

and listen to russ wittenberg

edit;

I think I’ll have to stop for a while now as I can’t keep up with all the bunking , debunking and de –debunking , and I think we are all now just chasing elusive shadows .

I am still convinced that much is still questionable about the official version of the 911 events , and it seems most of you are not in the slightest suspicious , and some others that are slightly suspicious but generally accept the government version of events .

There’s probably nothing either side can do to convince the other that they are wrong , so I’ll just say it’s been good to talk and I genuinely hope the people who believe the government are right and that I am wrong , because if I’m correct and this does all come out , then I genuinely fear for what could happen .

So for the time being, I’ll just think that ignorance is bliss in this case , and maybe pick up again in the near future