Thracian Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 If some recent racist and phobic chants have upset the football community wait til this lot become football fans... http://uk.news.yahoo...-152353818.html And while those so inclined might think they're well protected by the English legal system they'd better make the best of it... http://www.dailymail...osed-doors.html And, yes, there's one in Leicestershire. http://leicestershir...aria-court.html Suddenly my wife of near-45 years seems ever more attractive! I actually find it strange that supporters of the Islamic faith sit as MPs and councillors in this country because, as I understand it, disciples of Islam don't actually recognise any national or local government which operates contrary to Islamic doctrine. Islam It is not like other faiths. It is non-negotiable. So why are they there? Well, the only justification I can find is that a Muslim can sit on such a body is if his presence can be shown to advance the cause of Islam. You could perhaps argue that every MP or councillor is there to represent his or her beliefs. But they are not usually philosophically opposed to the non-Islamic government itself. Perhaps someone could explain. It is interesting too that the accused in the above case quote Islamic scriptures. To quote the hadiths is universal because the scriptures are inbedded in Muslim psyche from an early age just as Christian doctrine was hammered into English kids at one time. But no-one distributes idealogical leaflets on something they disbeiieve in. Can you imagine the uproar about this if it were Christian zealots promoting such a hateful campaign? Where did the leaflets come from? Who was the promoter? How many were distributed? Are these the views of the Sharia court representatives? Gays, Jews, Christians... who else will Islamists disapprove of when it's convenient? People who wear the wrong tee-shirts, people who wear their skirt an inch above the knee, people who take to the sea in bikinis. Actually some of them do, and vehemently. And yet the number of Sharia courts is allowed to grow. People sitting in those courts call many of us disbelievers because they say there is only one God. Right or wrong I agree with that - and believe that God is within any of us if we choose to recognise Him. Like many Islamists I believe God is nebulous and has no form. I also believe he has no need of any man to speak on his behalf. Would followers of Islam say differently? I seriously wonder if God speaks at all in any way that can be translated into words. God to me is felt not heard. I wonder who the Islamists believe created the people they condemn?. If God created them do they therefore suggest that God is flawed? Or that Islamists might represent God in taking the lives of those who, surely, he created or permitted to be created. How would that sit with the pious and merciful humility of true Islam (so rarely found in the zealot), the concept of God being all wise and all knowing and of man being simply his humble servant? Perhaps someone would enlighten me. Not with the words of man but with the wisdom of God. And that's before I mention the hypocrisy which relates not just to Pakistan but to other Islamic countries as well for all that they prefer to hide it. - these two links being just random examples. http://news.bbc.co.u...asia/248219.stm http://original.anti...with-the-devil/ I don't pretend that such abuses are rife only in the countries mentioned and don't exist in The West because they do, to our great shame. But those links relate to staunchly Islamic lands and if Islamists cannot reasonably attend to the moral fibre of predominently Islamic populations then by what yardstick should extremists soil our country and our society with their merciless and hate-filled propaganda? In fact I get sick of Muslim attacks on Western morality. They and their countries have a long way to go before they can justifiably moralise to anyone. They don't even start by admitting the truth - about marital rape and abuse, about the grooming of children for sex, about the rape gangs which have shamed Islam throughout Europe and other things. It is high time this country got out of Europe, answered to its own laws and started standing for something again, instead of allowing itself to be molested like a cheap whore by people peddling hatred. .
Yojoe36 Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 Oh very dear... 8 years later. "English courts abolished, and to be replace by..."
marko Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 And while those so inclined might think they're well protected by the English legal system they'd better make the best of it... http://www.dailymail...osed-doors.html An article that's two and a half years' old out of the 'Daily Hate Mail' is hardly a true representation of Sharia law in England.
lcfcadam Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 To be honest our justice system has dealt with these vile individuals quickly and effectively. I see no impact yet of Sharia affecting our own law. Regardless of the so-called "power" these behind-closed-doors Sharia courts think they have, ultimately it is just self-important nonsense. Any "decisions" they make still have to be approved by proper courts, operating under the still relatively sensible British law. Let's just say I'm not concerned about becoming a hated outcast in my own country just yet
Thracian Posted 20 January 2012 Author Posted 20 January 2012 An article that's two and a half years' old out of the 'Daily Hate Mail' is hardly a true representation of Sharia law in England. Perhaps this, for the BBC, in more acceptable and up-to-date. http://www.jihadwatc...ardest-hit.html You refer to the Mail piece relating to 2009 but the first official sharia court was only referred to in the Leicester Mercury article of 2008. You are probably right that the Mail article is not a true representation. But surely you are not suggesting there are fewer sharia courts now.
marko Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 Perhaps this, for the BBC, in more acceptable and up-to-date. http://www.jihadwatc...ardest-hit.html You refer to the Mail piece relating to 2009 but the first official sharia court was only referred to in the Leicester Mercury article of 2008. You are probably right that the Mail article is not a true representation. But surely you are not suggesting there are fewer sharia courts now. I've no idea to be honest with you. I don't know if they're proving increasingly popular, if they've plateaued or declined. Either way, our criminal justice system will never be permeated by any Sharia principles, traditions or sanctions. And I cannot foresee it ever coming into our civil legal branch. Further, any judgement handed down in one of these 'Sharia Courts' is not legally enforceable, so even the most devout Muslim could stick two fingers up to any decision. So I fail to see how such a weak, unenforceable system could ever have an overreaching jurisdiction over me. I'm pretty sure while my ticker is tocking U.K and EU law will be what governs me.
Thracian Posted 20 January 2012 Author Posted 20 January 2012 You may be right and I hope it's that simple.
Captain... Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 Perhaps this, for the BBC, in more acceptable and up-to-date. http://www.jihadwatc...ardest-hit.html You refer to the Mail piece relating to 2009 but the first official sharia court was only referred to in the Leicester Mercury article of 2008. You are probably right that the Mail article is not a true representation. But surely you are not suggesting there are fewer sharia courts now. The mail has an agenda to stir up hate and fear, if it was Christians using the church to help settle disputes, you wouldn't have a problem with it, are these guys evil: http://www.christianmediation.org.uk/ It is the same shit they just believe in a different fictional character. The nonsense scaremongering about Sharia law springing up all over the country is irrelevant to the original piece. As for Muslims quoting anti-gay scripture, I have had the same shit off Jehovah's witnesses, seriously, I got a leafleat through my door asking me if I knew why there were earthquakes, when I opened it I was surprised to discover it was because of Gay people. I am not saying it is right to spread anti gay messages, but it is not just a muslim thing.
Saxondale Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 The state, law or (even more so) religion should not tell people how to lives their lives, but provide a framework for decent interaction between people such that ones behaviour does not overtly negatively impact on others. How dare a religion (I'm not singling any out in particular) tell people what they can and can't drink, wear and bum if it doesn't impact on others.
flowwolf Posted 20 January 2012 Posted 20 January 2012 An article that's two and a half years' old out of the 'Daily Hate Mail' is hardly a true representation of Sharia law in England. And you should know because ? Are you actually trying to defend a religious group that thinks it can operate an independent law outside of the elected and state laws of this country ? Why should a illegal law ( sharia ) that is not even recognised by our state laws be represented at all ? If anyone want's to live under sharia law may I take the opportunity to wish them a safe journey and return to the country's that operate it.
Rincewind Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 On Twitter there are some extreme Christian fundalmentalists CFAMA who are vile in their views. They follow the Bible word for word and are anti-gay to the extreme posting utter crap. I am so glad I am am atheist and able to think for myself.
Daggers Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 I pop back and Tony has still got a bug up his arse about homosexuality and Muslims? What were the odds on that?
Captain... Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 And you should know because ? Are you actually trying to defend a religious group that thinks it can operate an independent law outside of the elected and state laws of this country ? Why should a illegal law ( sharia ) that is not even recognised by our state laws be represented at all ? If anyone want's to live under sharia law may I take the opportunity to wish them a safe journey and return to the country's that operate it. It does not operate outside the law, it is bound by the laws of this country and its decisions are not legally binding unless expressly stated by the laws of our country, all it is doing is providing a system of arbitration and mediation with the laws of the faith at heart. Whether or not you follow their findings is up to you, and you are not bound and never will be by their decisions. If you have a problem with the muslim faith and the interpretations of their holy texts that is your right, but they are doing nothing illegal, and nothing that isn't being provided by other religions, see my link above. Unfortunately the Daily hate is scaremongering again, and people without the capacity to read past provocative headlines are falling for it.
Thracian Posted 21 January 2012 Author Posted 21 January 2012 It does not operate outside the law, it is bound by the laws of this country and its decisions are not legally binding unless expressly stated by the laws of our country, all it is doing is providing a system of arbitration and mediation with the laws of the faith at heart. Whether or not you follow their findings is up to you, and you are not bound and never will be by their decisions. If you have a problem with the muslim faith and the interpretations of their holy texts that is your right, but they are doing nothing illegal, and nothing that isn't being provided by other religions, see my link above. Unfortunately the Daily hate is scaremongering again, and people without the capacity to read past provocative headlines are falling for it. The Daily Mail didn't distribute those leaflets. Nor has anyone questioned the accuracy of their claim about the increase in sharia courts or, indeed, answered the question about what the administrators of such courts would think about the sentiments of those leaflets.
Thracian Posted 21 January 2012 Author Posted 21 January 2012 On Twitter there are some extreme Christian fundalmentalists CFAMA who are vile in their views. They follow the Bible word for word and are anti-gay to the extreme posting utter crap. Precisely what has that got to do with anything? It's like saying that, because someone else hates left-handers it puts into proportion the idea of left-handers being targetted by another group. If you'd wish me to condemn Christians, Buddhists, Atheists or anyone else had they distributed such extreme views then take it as read. But it wasn't the issue and if it was there'd be uproar and widespread condemnation.
flowwolf Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 It does not operate outside the law, it is bound by the laws of this country and its decisions are not legally binding unless expressly stated by the laws of our country, all it is doing is providing a system of arbitration and mediation with the laws of the faith at heart. Whether or not you follow their findings is up to you, and you are not bound and never will be by their decisions. If you have a problem with the muslim faith and the interpretations of their holy texts that is your right, but they are doing nothing illegal, and nothing that isn't being provided by other religions, see my link above. Unfortunately the Daily hate is scaremongering again, and people without the capacity to read past provocative headlines are falling for it. That being the case can you explain why they call it a law ? There is only one law in this country and that law is for every one regardless of creed culture or religion. Only one faith sets it's self up as a rival law and that is Islam hence calling it Sharia law. By sitting in their own little courts they are demonstrating complete lack of respect for our laws, Not exactly endearing themselves to the British public are they not to mention complete lack of integration by this isolationist attitude. I wonder if the Sharia law forbids the handing out of anti homosexual leaflets on the streets of Britain ?
Captain... Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 That being the case can you explain why they call it a law ? There is only one law in this country and that law is for every one regardless of creed culture or religion. Only one faith sets it's self up as a rival law and that is Islam hence calling it Sharia law. By sitting in their own little courts they are demonstrating complete lack of respect for our laws, Not exactly endearing themselves to the British public are they not to mention complete lack of integration by this isolationist attitude. I wonder if the Sharia law forbids the handing out of anti homosexual leaflets on the streets of Britain ? It's just a name, the laws of physics are not legally binding, it is set up up to resolve disputes in muslim communities as they would be resolved in muslim countries because some people want to live that way and look to religious leaders for guidance. It is not the law of the land and followers are free to follow the rulings or not, these courts are not set up to govern crimes like murder. The tribunals, working mainly from mosques, settle financial and family disputes according to religious principles. They lay down judgments which can be given full legal status if approved in national law courts. - from the Daily Mail article The sharia courts in the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal are recognised as courts under the Arbitration Act. This law, which covers Jewish Beth Din courts, gives legal powers to a tribunal if all parties involved accept its authority. - Also from the Daily Mail article Islam has different principles when it comes to issues around marriage and children that can't and shouldn't be taken into account in English courts, so they provide arbitration services to resolve disputes. If the result is questionable it can then be taken to British courts. Under Sharia law there probably isn't any issue with handing out anti-gay leaflets, but they weren't prosecuted under Sharia law, they were arrested under UK law and found guilty, Sharia law has no jurisdiction and never will over crimes committed in our country. The 2 articles in the original post are completely unrelated except that they are both about muslims. Basically this whole thread seems to be a smear campaign to generate hate towards muslims and frankly I am pretty disgusted, and disappointed in Thracian for starting it.
Captain... Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 The Daily Mail didn't distribute those leaflets. Nor has anyone questioned the accuracy of their claim about the increase in sharia courts or, indeed, answered the question about what the administrators of such courts would think about the sentiments of those leaflets. As I have replied to flowwolf, there may be Sharia courts in England but they have no jurisdiction over crimes and criminal activity, so it is irrelevant what they think to anti-gay leaflets, these are crimes, they have been punished by British law what is your problem with that?
AdamN Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 The 2 articles in the original post are completely unrelated except that they are both about muslims. Basically this whole thread seems to be a smear campaign to generate hate towards muslims and frankly I am pretty disgusted, and disappointed in Thracian for starting it. Absolutely spot on. Thank you for a bit of sense. But no-one distributes idealogical leaflets on something they disbeiieve in. Can you imagine the uproar about this if it were Christian zealots promoting such a hateful campaign? Yes. Take the Westboro Baptist Church as the most well known example. They were hardly greeted with cheers and whistles, were they?
Thracian Posted 21 January 2012 Author Posted 21 January 2012 As I have replied to flowwolf, there may be Sharia courts in England but they have no jurisdiction over crimes and criminal activity, so it is irrelevant what they think to anti-gay leaflets, these are crimes, they have been punished by British law what is your problem with that? It may be irrelevent and it may not. The administrators of Sharia courts, together with the Imams exert tremendous influence over Muslim people and I find it extremely difficult to imagine these leaflets were distributed "off the cuff" and without at least token approval from others in higher authority. As for my topic somehow representing hatred against Muslims the truth is quite the opposite. It is meant to deter hatred against gays or anyone else - exactly the sort of action which is considered an important and worthy cause in football circles and beyond.. My topic is a stand, not against Muslims but against extremists, the pedlars of hate, and anyone from any faith or organisation, who would allow or encourage such messages. It is appalling to think that anyone - and especially young people - should be encouraged to hate in this way, and even more so in the name of God. I have many Muslim friends and associates. I even contributed to Ramadam this year via a family in Tunisia. Some of those friends are so close they call me "dad" and so longstanding that I would have happily have welcomed a Muslim daughter-in-law were there any chance of it happening. I've never heard one word of hatred from their collective lips and cannot imagine why any followers of their faith should wish to change that, either on the subject of homosexuality or anything else. But there are messages of hate being fed to young Muslims - against The West and against so-called Western influences - particularly from radical people or organisations, and I find it difficult to believe that the people found guilty of distributing those leaflets have not been influenced by such messages. We seem keen enough to end villification and victimisation of people in football. Why not in every other arena?
Captain... Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 All of that may be true, but the link you have made between these people sending out leaflets, and the increase in Sharia courts is completely fabricated. You have not answered my question, why did you post that link? Some people did something bad, and got punished, there is no other story there except they are Muslims, now if they hadn't been punished because they were just quoting scripture, then you would have a right to be morally outraged. Then you make a link between an isolated incident of anti-gay leaflet dropping to the increase in Sharia courts in UK. Now you seem to be claiming that these Sharia courts are behind it, and other incidents of hatred towards the West, with no basis what so ever. There is no evidence in your post that there is a much bigger issue at the core of these leaflet droppers, you may have a point that those prosecuted are just the foot soldiers, and actually they should be looking at the community leaders who authorised these leaflets and not those that delivered them, you don't blame the paper boy for delivering something you don't like. But that comment was lost under a whole sea of anti muslim nonsense. Read back your first post and tell me you can't see how that could be interpretted as anti-muslim.
Thracian Posted 21 January 2012 Author Posted 21 January 2012 All of that may be true, but the link you have made between these people sending out leaflets, and the increase in Sharia courts is completely fabricated. You have not answered my question, why did you post that link? Some people did something bad, and got punished, there is no other story there except they are Muslims, now if they hadn't been punished because they were just quoting scripture, then you would have a right to be morally outraged. Then you make a link between an isolated incident of anti-gay leaflet dropping to the increase in Sharia courts in UK. Now you seem to be claiming that these Sharia courts are behind it, and other incidents of hatred towards the West, with no basis what so ever. There is a much wider story. The leaflets were clearly not isolated incidents by any means. Members of the local muslim community have clearly been affected and intimidated for years by people connected with this group. I posted the link because I did not believe those prosecuted acted independently or without reference to higher authority. At no time did i say or suggest that sharia courts (or people connected to the interpretation of sharia law) were behind the leaflets but I did think they'd have known about them... And that seems clearly the case because the leaflets, reportedly produced in protest against a gay pride march in Derby were distributed right outside the mosque and the streets nearby. The activities of at least one member of the group concerned had also been widely known about. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2012/01/20/muslim-men-face-jail-for-handing-out-gay-hate-leaflets-115875-23709965/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2089536/Muslim-fanatics-called-execution-gays-face-seven-years-jail.html Sharia law on homosexuality is explained here. There are different interpretations on the subject and on the appropriate punishments for those caught. But however you look at it the Sharia view seems pretty emphatic and unsympathetic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_sexual_orientation http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/islam.htm As for saying that sharia law won't impact on British law that may or may not be the case but it is certainly impacting on British people. And while i readily acknowedge hat Sharia law has no legal strength as such there is no question it has great rule of force within Islamic communities and not all of it welcome or considered to be just. There are hundreds of cases dealt with by Sharia courts in England every week and there seems no doubt whatever that the principles applied are sometimes contrary to the freedoms both sexes enjoy under the established law of this land and also contrary to what some Muslims - particularly women - feel is fair and right. Efforts have already been made to redress this in some Muslim countries where the female vote is very strong. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8686504/Sharia-a-law-unto-itself.html I am involved with a group seeking to encourage a safer world for women and abuse/victimisation/injustice meted out to women in so many societies across the world is utterly appalling and totally indefensible. There is no case for accepting or ignoring such injustice here either to women or anyone else protected by law. Freedoms allowed under UK law should be the freedoms available to anyone if required, without intimidation. Whether concerning gays, women, free speech or a whole lot of other things. Which is why i believe people like Anjem Choudary say it is wrong for Muslims to even vote in British elections. It is the very point I made about Muslims serving on UK councils...that unless it is seen to be furthering the cause of Islam it is actually against their faith to serve any administration that is not based on Islam . Yes, some of the freedoms I mentioned have been signficantly eroded in the battle to keep the peace among people of so-often contrasting views but they are to be valued and they are worth defending. They don't include the freedom for anyone to incite hatred and moderate, peaceful and inclusive Muslim people, and especially the young. are entitled to be protected from their own hate-mongers - seen or unseen - just as much as anyone else.
marko Posted 21 January 2012 Posted 21 January 2012 And you should know because ? Are you actually trying to defend a religious group that thinks it can operate an independent law outside of the elected and state laws of this country ? Why should a illegal law ( sharia ) that is not even recognised by our state laws be represented at all ? If anyone want's to live under sharia law may I take the opportunity to wish them a safe journey and return to the country's that operate it. Well, for a start it's out of date so unless they've remained static it can't be classed as a true representation. Could you please point out exactly where i've defended this illegal Sharia law? All i've done is point out that it's scaremongering by the Daily Hate Mail about how we're being pushed closer and closer to an Islamic legal system, when if truth be told, it's simply not the case. That's the whole point, they're not operating any law. No decision is enforceable in any shape or form, therefore how you can categorise it as an illegal law is beyond me. Anyway, let me know when Sharia law affects you, although I suspect i'll be waiting a while.
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