And if you don't go straight....

[FoxyPV]

Islamophobic nonsense.

There's more chance of a marxist revolution as there is of this happening in the UK

[Finnegan]

Islamophobic nonsense.

There's more chance of a marxist revolution as there is of this happening in the UK

THEY'VE GOT MUSLAMIC RAY GUNS!

[Nick]

The Sharia Tripods are coming I tell you - but there is a place where people are free (it's not the White Mountains) run now and avoid the 'capping':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLeqqG4sKik

[Captain...]

There is a much wider story. The leaflets were clearly not isolated incidents by any means. Members of the local muslim community have clearly been affected and intimidated for years by people connected with this group.

I posted the link because I did not believe those prosecuted acted independently or without reference to higher authority. At no time did i say or suggest that sharia courts (or people connected to the interpretation of sharia law) were behind the leaflets but I did think they'd have known about them...

And that seems clearly the case because the leaflets, reportedly produced in protest against a gay pride march in Derby were distributed right outside the mosque and the streets nearby. The activities of at least one member of the group concerned had also been widely known about.

http://www.mirror.co...15875-23709965/

From the article:

"While people are entitled to hold extreme opinions which others may find unpleasant and obnoxious, they are not entitled to distribute those opinions in a threatening manner intending to stir up hatred against gay people."

Chief Inspector Sunita Gamblin said: "This is a landmark case. It's the first time that Derbyshire have ever used this legislation and it's actually the first time nationally that this legislation has been used."

She added that such behaviour was not widespread in the community and that the wider Muslim community did not agree with the content of the leaflets.

"They're very pleased that the police have taken positive action and I'm sure they'll be very pleased with the outcome too."

But you are claiming to know better and you are again insinuating that this has something to do with Sharia courts. Why?

http://www.dailymail...years-jail.html

Last night it emerged that:

• Muslim fanatic and hate preacher Anjem Choudary was secretly invited by the group’s ringleader, Ihjaz Ali, for a series of meetings in Derby;
  
• The group had links with the extremist organisation Al-Muhajiroun, which is banned under UK anti-terror laws;
  
• Moderate Muslim leaders who spoke out against the group’s activities were targeted in a hate campaign in which their faces were printed on ‘wanted’ posters;
  

So they have arrested the ring leader, they know he has links with a banned extremist group and that Moderate Muslim leaders have spoken out against the groups activities, it doesn't sound like this big conspiracy involving the community leaders which you keep on suggesting.

Sharia law on homosexuality is explained here. There are different interpretations on the subject and on the appropriate punishments for those caught. But however you look at it the Sharia view seems pretty emphatic and unsympathetic.

http://en.wikipedia....ual_orientation

http://www.religionf...ality/islam.htm

As for saying that sharia law won't impact on British law that may or may not be the case but it is certainly impacting on British people.

And while i readily acknowedge hat Sharia law has no legal strength as such there is no question it has great rule of force within Islamic communities and not all of it welcome or considered to be just.

There are hundreds of cases dealt with by Sharia courts in England every week and there seems no doubt whatever that the principles applied are sometimes contrary to the freedoms both sexes enjoy under the established law of this land and also contrary to what some Muslims - particularly women - feel is fair and right. Efforts have already been made to redress this in some Muslim countries where the female vote is very strong.

http://www.telegraph...nto-itself.html

That is an interesting article, but is still doesn't support any theory that sharia law is taking over, what is clear is that Muslims need to be very careful when entering into marriages in England, the example given is of a woman who did not have her marriage legally recognised in England, so the courts would not be able to help her, it would also be difficult for an English court to legislate in a case that involves multiple marriages. This is illegal in England, but then these marriages are not legally recognised. It looks like a bit of a minefield to be honest and best to be resolved by those that understand the complexities of these cases.

All of these articles repeatedly state that decisions in these courts are not legally binding by british law and any further disputes can be taken to the British courts, but, as I said, if it is not a legally recognised marriage then it is very difficult to legislate.

I am involved with a group seeking to encourage a safer world for women and abuse/victimisation/injustice meted out to women in so many societies across the world is utterly appalling and totally indefensible. There is no case for accepting or ignoring such injustice here either to women or anyone else protected by law.

Freedoms allowed under UK law should be the freedoms available to anyone if required, without intimidation. Whether concerning gays, women, free speech or a whole lot of other things.

Yes you are right, but nothing you have shown or argued suggests anything different in the UK, the people that seek resolution to disputes in Sharia courts are not bound to them and are only applied if agreed by both sides.

I am not niave enough to believe that there are no abuses in these courts and in Musim societies specifically towards women, but these are things that sadly happen in all walks of life, but British muslim women have more freedoms than those in Saudi Arabia or Iran, whether they choose to exercise their rights or not is a different matter.

Which is why i believe people like Anjem Choudary say it is wrong for Muslims to even vote in British elections. It is the very point I made about Muslims serving on UK councils...that unless it is seen to be furthering the cause of Islam it is actually against their faith to serve any administration that is not based on Islam .

Yes, some of the freedoms I mentioned have been signficantly eroded in the battle to keep the peace among people of so-often contrasting views but they are to be valued and they are worth defending.

They don't include the freedom for anyone to incite hatred and moderate, peaceful and inclusive Muslim people, and especially the young. are entitled to be protected from their own hate-mongers - seen or unseen - just as much as anyone else.

So are you agreeing with Anjem Choudrey, that Muslims shouldn't serve on British councils? I think it is important to have Muslims on councils to represent muslim communities, and of course they will have certain agendas and points of view to do with their faith, but that is true of anyone with a strong faith, they will look to exert their principles on the council.

I am going to be honest, I really am still failing to see what point you have been trying to make, other than "muslims are bad".

If you want to talk about homophobia in the UK you have to look a lot wider than Muslim extremists,

Likewise if you are going to look at abuses and discrimination towards Women and sexual inequality again it goes much deeper than muslim extremists in the UK.

If you have a problem with the Sharia courts, and believe that they are trying to take over then frankly you sound like a typical bigotted Daily Mail reader, and I don't believe that you are, but your approach to making your point just gets completely lost because you are trying to connect too many things together that don't go together.

[Nick]

From the article:

"While people are entitled to hold extreme opinions which others may find unpleasant and obnoxious, they are not entitled to distribute those opinions in a threatening manner intending to stir up hatred against gay people."

Chief Inspector Sunita Gamblin said: "This is a landmark case. It's the first time that Derbyshire have ever used this legislation and it's actually the first time nationally that this legislation has been used."

She added that such behaviour was not widespread in the community and that the wider Muslim community did not agree with the content of the leaflets.

"They're very pleased that the police have taken positive action and I'm sure they'll be very pleased with the outcome too."

But you are claiming to know better and you are again insinuating that this has something to do with Sharia courts. Why?

Last night it emerged that:

• Muslim fanatic and hate preacher Anjem Choudary was secretly invited by the group’s ringleader, Ihjaz Ali, for a series of meetings in Derby;
  
• The group had links with the extremist organisation Al-Muhajiroun, which is banned under UK anti-terror laws;
  
• Moderate Muslim leaders who spoke out against the group’s activities were targeted in a hate campaign in which their faces were printed on ‘wanted’ posters;
  

So they have arrested the ring leader, they know he has links with a banned extremist group and that Moderate Muslim leaders have spoken out against the groups activities, it doesn't sound like this big conspiracy involving the community leaders which you keep on suggesting.

That is an interesting article, but is still doesn't support any theory that sharia law is taking over, what is clear is that Muslims need to be very careful when entering into marriages in England, the example given is of a woman who did not have her marriage legally recognised in England, so the courts would not be able to help her, it would also be difficult for an English court to legislate in a case that involves multiple marriages. This is illegal in England, but then these marriages are not legally recognised. It looks like a bit of a minefield to be honest and best to be resolved by those that understand the complexities of these cases.

All of these articles repeatedly state that decisions in these courts are not legally binding by british law and any further disputes can be taken to the British courts, but, as I said, if it is not a legally recognised marriage then it is very difficult to legislate.

Yes you are right, but nothing you have shown or argued suggests anything different in the UK, the people that seek resolution to disputes in Sharia courts are not bound to them and are only applied if agreed by both sides.

I am not niave enough to believe that there are no abuses in these courts and in Musim societies specifically towards women, but these are things that sadly happen in all walks of life, but British muslim women have more freedoms than those in Saudi Arabia or Iran, whether they choose to exercise their rights or not is a different matter.

So are you agreeing with Anjem Choudrey, that Muslims shouldn't serve on British councils? I think it is important to have Muslims on councils to represent muslim communities, and of course they will have certain agendas and points of view to do with their faith, but that is true of anyone with a strong faith, they will look to exert their principles on the council.

I am going to be honest, I really am still failing to see what point you have been trying to make, other than "muslims are bad".

If you want to talk about homophobia in the UK you have to look a lot wider than Muslim extremists,

Likewise if you are going to look at abuses and discrimination towards Women and sexual inequality again it goes much deeper than muslim extremists in the UK.

If you have a problem with the Sharia courts, and believe that they are trying to take over then frankly you sound like a typical bigotted Daily Mail reader, and I don't believe that you are, but your approach to making your point just gets completely lost because you are trying to connect too many things together that don't go together.

Good post + 1

Warning: Historically, 'reasoning' with Tony in regard to these 'hobby horses' of his, can take up a lot of time and bear little fruit.

[Trav Le Bleu]

I pop back and Tony has still got a bug up his arse about homosexuality and Muslims?

What were the odds on that?

I'm thinking it can't be coincidence...

[flowwolf]

Thank you for your well balanced reply Captain but I disagree about this thread being some sort of smear campaign against Islam. It has merely brought to our attention the fact that Muslims obviously do not feel part of the British culture and operate isolationism in the form of having their own so called Sharia law Ie a law solely for Muslims. It sends out a message that they do not wish to adopt any of our culture, indeed the Muslim clerics openly poor scorn on our way of life and poison the minds of young Muslims to the point where they will hand out leaflets saying we should hang homosexuals. If you ask me they are doing a pretty good job of smearing themselves by the actions and rhetoric without the help of the Daily Mail.

[Captain...]

Thank you for your well balanced reply Captain but I disagree about this thread being some sort of smear campaign against Islam. It has merely brought to our attention the fact that Muslims obviously do not feel part of the British culture and operate isolationism in the form of having their own so called Sharia law Ie a law solely for Muslims. It sends out a message that they do not wish to adopt any of our culture, indeed the Muslim clerics openly poor scorn on our way of life and poison the minds of young Muslims to the point where they will hand out leaflets saying we should hang homosexuals. If you ask me they are doing a pretty good job of smearing themselves by the actions and rhetoric without the help of the Daily Mail.

But it is the generalisation of muslims that I don't like, in the articles about these leaflets the muslims in the area and community leaders have disassociated themselves with these actions and said that they are the actions of extremists and not representative of all muslims in the UK. Of course there are muslim extremists, but they are the minority. In the same way the Westboro Bapist church are not representative of all Christians. If you have been following the Presidential campaigning in the States the Right wing conservative views towards homosexuals are just as unpleasant, and these are the people vying to get in to power and will be the representatives of one of the most powerful nations in the world, now that is a lot scarier than a few bigotted muslims who have been arrested and quite serverly punished.

As for the Sharia courts, do you think that the uk courts are able to deal with family disputes over multiple, unregistered marriages? Do you think they should be? I don't see any problem with disputes being settled outside of the British legal if they are dealt with fairly and to the satisfaction of both parties, if anything it illeviates the burden on the British courts and allows for specialists to deal with specialist cases. If they are not dealt with in a fitting manner then they can still be brought to British courts. Do you have the same problem with the Jewish Beth Din courts? The same thing but specialisng in issues specific to Jewish law?

If this was part of an increasing number of incidents of muslim extremism in the UK then I would be more worried, but actually this is the first case I've heard about for a long time, in the last 5 years cases of muslim extremism seems to have decreased dramatically.

[Daggers]

They are training pussyterrorists...

The only solution is to man the blenders...

[AoWW]

Daggers - Those poor pussycats.

[Daggers]

The only good pussy is a dead pussy.

Ask any necrophiliac.

[The Doctor]

They are training pussyterrorists...

Call in Mr Schrödinger

[flowwolf]

But it is the generalisation of muslims that I don't like, in the articles about these leaflets the muslims in the area and community leaders have disassociated themselves with these actions and said that they are the actions of extremists and not representative of all muslims in the UK. Of course there are muslim extremists, but they are the minority. In the same way the Westboro Bapist church are not representative of all Christians. If you have been following the Presidential campaigning in the States the Right wing conservative views towards homosexuals are just as unpleasant, and these are the people vying to get in to power and will be the representatives of one of the most powerful nations in the world, now that is a lot scarier than a few bigotted muslims who have been arrested and quite serverly punished.

As for the Sharia courts, do you think that the uk courts are able to deal with family disputes over multiple, unregistered marriages? Do you think they should be? I don't see any problem with disputes being settled outside of the British legal if they are dealt with fairly and to the satisfaction of both parties, if anything it illeviates the burden on the British courts and allows for specialists to deal with specialist cases. If they are not dealt with in a fitting manner then they can still be brought to British courts. Do you have the same problem with the Jewish Beth Din courts? The same thing but specialisng in issues specific to Jewish law?

If this was part of an increasing number of incidents of muslim extremism in the UK then I would be more worried, but actually this is the first case I've heard about for a long time, in the last 5 years cases of muslim extremism seems to have decreased dramatically.

Take your point Captain , and well argued !

[HEGGSY]

THEY'VE GOT MUSLAMIC RAY GUNS!

Pissed Skinhead:They're trying to get that Muslamic law over here!