Footballing gay #3

[Captain...]

Nobody is compelled to declare their sexuality, but some feel compelled to conceal it. There is sometimes gossip on here about so-and-so's wife/girlfriend...Can you imagine if, say, Andy King and Lloyd Dyer were in a relationship? Many, hopefully most, wouldn't give a shit, but quite a number would express disgust or abuse...and not just opposing fans. Likewise, while I don't want to watch a gay couple slobbering over one another in the stands any more than I want to watch a straight couple doing so ("inappropriate", as you say), I reckon that a significant minority would react more strongly to the former than to the latter...

Good luck to any gay footballer who comes out; even now, when there are fewer homophobic bigots than there used to be, they'd have to be very brave or very reckless.

Andy King and Lloyd Dyer, that's disgusting, their babies will be mixed race...

[Corky]

And go missing in tough away games.

[Thracian]

How is that a daft comment? I agree that the way this guy has came about in public wasn't necessary but my comment about generalising is that your every day person doesn't create a blog and publish it to millions of people therefore not all gays feel the need to come out.

It's a daft comment because "everyone" is not presumed to be straight - by anyone with even half a brain.

[Thracian]

a) You've answered your own rhetorical question: pressure groups do not highlight football because they want personal attention, but to promote their cause - the right of gay people not to face abuse for being themselves. About 25 years ago, a similar campaign highlighted racist abuse, otherwise it might still be acceptable for fans to throw bananas at Wes Morgan and to make monkey noises at Lloyd Dyer.

b) I'm not a footballer, so do not know why hardly any gay footballers come out, but my guess is that they suspect they might be subject to abuse and discrimination from club management and/or teammates and/or fans. Certainly, my gay nephew was subject to sufficient abuse, even violence due to his sexuality that my brother had to move home - and, although I happen to be straight, at school I got a lot of unpleasant abuse from people who guessed otherwise. Likewise, in most sports where gay men have come out, they've mainly done so at the end of their careers...suggesting similar fears. They are not stopped from being footballers, they just have to cover up part of their identity - which straight footballers do not. That's not to mention the (now hopefully rare) phenomenon of "gaybashing" - even murders of gay people for their sexuality....ever heard of "straightbashing"?

c) As a sidetrack, I have a hunch that there are probably proportionally fewer gay people in football than the average, just as there are proportionally more in some other professions, but it beggars belief that there are almost none...and I'm not talking about people shouting it from the rooftops, just maybe being seen out for a meal or drink with a same-sex partner.

d) There is massively more publicity about the sexuality of straight footballers than about that of gay footballers: we've all heard of WAGs, but not of HABs ("Husbands and Boyfriends"!); some footballers earn megabucks for having their wedding photos (to women!) published in magazines, while others are always having their photos printed with a glamour model on their arm or are in the gossip columns for scoring in nightclubs....in other words, they can and do "parade" their sexuality without fear, whereas historically (and to a large extent still) gay people have not been able to do likewise without fear of abuse, even violence, hence the historic need for strength in numbers through Gay Pride-type events.

e) Nobody is compelled to declare their sexuality, but some feel compelled to conceal it. There is sometimes gossip on here about so-and-so's wife/girlfriend...Can you imagine if, say, Andy King and Lloyd Dyer were in a relationship? Many, hopefully most, wouldn't give a shit, but quite a number would express disgust or abuse...and not just opposing fans. Likewise, while I don't want to watch a gay couple slobbering over one another in the stands any more than I want to watch a straight couple doing so ("inappropriate", as you say), I reckon that a significant minority would react more strongly to the former than to the latter...

f) Good luck to any gay footballer who comes out; even now, when there are fewer homophobic bigots than there used to be, they'd have to be very brave or very reckless.

a) I can't ever remember thinking it acceptable to throw bananas and still don't want football hijacking for any cause, nor politicising in any way, thanks.

Organisations represent "gays" so, within football as elsewhere, they are representing the cause as well as the individuals supporting that cause - hence they are talking about themselves (as "gays").

b) By your own admission you're guessing so there's no point arguing. As for your nephew many of us have suffered abuse or violence at some time for some indefensible excuse. If abuse were the instigator I could have a campaign against something every week where I work. No I've not heard of straight-bashing but "straight" people have been killed/hurt for all sorts of other reasons involving judgemental thinking. And has the pro-gay campaigning ended violence against homosexuals? Or has the seemingly harsher penalties for all violence had the greater effect?

c) You may be right but you're guessing. Again, if people were out for a meal, who'd give a toss about their sexuality, unless they were slobbering all over one another and causing embarrassment?

d) The "straight" parading you mention is in no way the sort of organised parade I was referring to (as I'm sure you know) but as you mention it I think it's a depressing sign of the times that such pictures of glamour girls with footballers should be considered newsworthy at all and am more than happy not to buy newspapers which feed their readers such shallow, pre-conceived tripe and pretend it's news. I'd rather newspapers cut out all the sex-sells-papers stories and return to being news papers but that's no more likely than television turning away from soap operas. Both seem to have massive appeal for some reason.

e) Can't agree. I don't want to see anyone slobbering over their partners at a football match. Other than that - which amounts to basic consideration for others - i've no idea why anyone would need to conceal or reveal their sexuality at a football match.

f) How do you know there are fewer homophobic bigots? They may be concealing their feelings out of fear. In other words the campaigning might have eased the "gays" fears but caused others to hide their anti-gay feelings out of fear. You've only got to read the threads on here to see how hard it is for people to actually change their views. They might sometimes pay lip service to a change of view but a few months later they'll still be defending the same corner or staying silent out of fear but still thinking as they did before.

[Uncle Albert]

I bet it's great being a gay footballer.

Imagine the showers after a match. You're surrounded by young and physically fit men.

Bet his wank bank was constantly full.

You absolute freak.

Was talking about this in the Pub Saturday and someone made a great point. In Barrow Upon Soar there are a lot of gay men and women, not got a problem with them, don't really like the thought but it doesn't bother me.

A mate said "I can think of 10 gay people in this village a lone, plus all the people who now come out as gay in the World, there's loads now.. So you're telling me out of 90 odd English Football League clubs there isn't 10 gay Footballers?" He's right I bet there is loads!

Anyway, Gay men clearly aren't going to come out in Football it just won't happen, that's the society we live in unfortunately just like Racism won't ever leave Football.

Final thing I absolutely laughed out loud when someone said that chant "does your boyfriend know you're here?" hahaha!

[Les-TA-Jon]

Sir Alf Bentley - well done - you've saved me the trouble of quoting the hell out of Thracian's posts

[Alf Bentley]

a) I can't ever remember thinking it acceptable to throw bananas and still don't want football hijacking for any cause, nor politicising in any way, thanks.

Organisations represent "gays" so, within football as elsewhere, they are representing the cause as well as the individuals supporting that cause - hence they are talking about themselves (as "gays").

b) By your own admission you're guessing so there's no point arguing. As for your nephew many of us have suffered abuse or violence at some time for some indefensible excuse. If abuse were the instigator I could have a campaign against something every week where I work. No I've not heard of straight-bashing but "straight" people have been killed/hurt for all sorts of other reasons involving judgemental thinking. And has the pro-gay campaigning ended violence against homosexuals? Or has the seemingly harsher penalties for all violence had the greater effect?

c) You may be right but you're guessing. Again, if people were out for a meal, who'd give a toss about their sexuality, unless they were slobbering all over one another and causing embarrassment?

d) The "straight" parading you mention is in no way the sort of organised parade I was referring to (as I'm sure you know) but as you mention it I think it's a depressing sign of the times that such pictures of glamour girls with footballers should be considered newsworthy at all and am more than happy not to buy newspapers which feed their readers such shallow, pre-conceived tripe and pretend it's news. I'd rather newspapers cut out all the sex-sells-papers stories and return to being news papers but that's no more likely than television turning away from soap operas. Both seem to have massive appeal for some reason.

e) Can't agree. I don't want to see anyone slobbering over their partners at a football match. Other than that - which amounts to basic consideration for others - i've no idea why anyone would need to conceal or reveal their sexuality at a football match.

f) How do you know there are fewer homophobic bigots? They may be concealing their feelings out of fear. In other words the campaigning might have eased the "gays" fears but caused others to hide their anti-gay feelings out of fear. You've only got to read the threads on here to see how hard it is for people to actually change their views. They might sometimes pay lip service to a change of view but a few months later they'll still be defending the same corner or staying silent out of fear but still thinking as they did before.

a) Likewise, I'd prefer football to be politicised as little as possible. But some things are more important than football (sorry, Shanks!). So, when football is an appropriate place for political issues to be raised, fine! Mind you, it is hardly swamped by gay rights campaigns - a bit from the PFA/FA about homophobic chanting (and stuff like "does your boyfriend know you're here?" is surely as harmless, if naff, as asking every long-haired player about their caravan...it's the intent that matters, as FIF correctly says). However, if you equate promoting a cause to "wanting attention", presumably those campaigning to save the indoor market just "want attention", do they?

b) My "guess" is an educated guess, so not worthless: the PFA state that they have been advising 8 gay footballers (and that's just the ones who've contacted them), none of whom want to come out. Do you have evidence that the PFA is lying? Why are those players so publicity-shy, if not through fear? Don't you think the media would be all over it, even if no announcements were made and they were just seen out with gay partners? Out of 1000s of UK footballers, only 2 have ever come out; 1 committed suicide, the other has quit the game at 25. I've been abused or beaten up a few times during my life, but nothing as (temporarily) damaging as the anti-gay abuse that I (inaccurately) got when I was a teenager. I was effectively accused of being some sort of unacceptable, subhuman, non-male scum and was left confused, withdrawn and on the verge of a breakdown. If gay footballers felt able to be open, it might help some young people today avoid that - and might educate some out of ignorance (not that I blame them for being cautious). Gay and straight people are hurt/killed for various reasons, but I've never heard of a straight person being hurt/killed purely for their sexuality. What has probably improved the situation, Thracian, is new generations growing up since decriminalisation and having friends, colleagues & family members who are "out"...hopefully the negative influence of our older generations will gradually/mainly die off.

c) You're being disingenuous here. If Andy King, say, was seen walking into a restaurant holding hands with a girlfriend, it would have zero news value. If he did so with a boyfriend, it would be front-page national news. Some would applaud, many would shrug, but some would unleash a lot of vitriol.

d) I agree with you re. tittle-tattle in papers, but not re. "parading". People assert their presence/express their identity in numbers where they might be fearful of the consequences if they did so alone. Many groups (e.g. trade unions) operate on the same principle. It breeds confidence, challenges opponents...and is hopefully a bit of fun. I'm only sorry I've not "paraded" in support!

e) Agreed, no slobbering please (unless you're a hormone-controlled teenager and can't help it!), but I'd have no problem with a straight couple at a match holding hands or giving one another a quick peck; would everyone have the same tolerance of a gay couple doing the same? If not, there is still a problem to some extent...

f) Polls consistently suggest that fewer people are anti-gay these days. Yes, a few might feel forced to give "the expected response", but I can't imagine large numbers are so cowed that they can't express themselves in an anonymous survey. Are you referring to yourself by any chance? I only ask as you repeatedly used inverted commas around "gay" and "straight" and made some strange references to sex with horses and hollowed-out cucumbers! Don't tell me that I've misunderstood and "market trader" is not an occupation but a euphemism for the sexual preferences of men who meet at "Ye Olde Horse and Cucumber" for sexual experiences with livestock and food produce....I do hope you wash the produce before selling it on, if so!

[BlueFoxWYS]

Is it any surprise when you get knuckle draggers like the ones prevalent in this thread from the Cardiff forum?:

http://www.cardiffcityforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105315

[BoneDog]

This is all a bit silly. Brighton fans have written a letter to the FA about it? My gosh. OTT or what.

Singing 'Does your boyfriend know you're here' is in no way on a par with racism. I once tried to start a song against Brighton 'Sing when you're bummin, You only sing when you're bummin, sing when you're bummmmmmin', and I'm not a gayist. It was just fun and if a gay heard it I doubt he was appalled.

[Alf Bentley]

This is all a bit silly. Brighton fans have written a letter to the FA about it? My gosh. OTT or what.

Singing 'Does your boyfriend know you're here' is in no way on a par with racism. I once tried to start a song against Brighton 'Sing when you're bummin, You only sing when you're bummin, sing when you're bummmmmmin', and I'm not a gayist. It was just fun and if a gay heard it I doubt he was appalled.

Tend to agree, Mr. Empty. Such chants might be a bit naff and silly, especially when 99% of their fans are probably straight...but I quite like harmless naffness and silliness. There are issues worth getting serious about...and then there's silliness. There's a fair bit of truth in FIF's comment - the intent (nasty or silly?) tells you a lot. There's a world of difference between a silly (and possibly fun) chant like "does your boyfriend?" and the viciousness that Sol Campbell was subject to, surely?!