Eastleigh by-election.

[Guest MattP]

Older conservatives, at least those that represented the Party rather than those just muttering intollerences behind twitching curtains, were actually nearly human.

The evil rot set in with Thatcher.

I actually thought Thatcher's lot were the best Conservatives, not only did they genuinely represent the values of the party but they were damn good pantomine villians as well.

[Alf Bentley]

On a sidenote don't Labour select some classy candidates?, no matter how much my hatred for Gordon Brown was I wouldn't fantastise about his children being left fatherless. Let alone actually write it down and broadcast it.

This decidedly unclassy comment doesn't merit much response, but a few facts are called for:

- Labour's candidate's comments were written in 1998, in a book remembering his feelings about the Thatcher regime. They have obviously been raked up as a dirt-throwing exercise by the manipulative right-wing press that you get your opinions from.

- Visceral hatred of Thatcher was indeed very common at the time. Many loved her and many hated her. A major historical figure, but probably the most divisive this country has ever known. I regret that I have mellowed so much that I no longer feel that hatred. She launched a sustained, ruthless and largely successful attack on whole swathes of the country (including football fans), attacking the moral values of "one nation", mutual care, community and human rights in favour of social division, deprivation and the right of the fortunate to trample over the unfortunate. You clearly approve of that. I disapprove.

- Thatcher's children were adults at the time of the Brighton bomb. Son Mark, a noted playboy, was probably lost in the Sahara on his misguided, millionaire-funded attempt to win the Paris-Dakar rally...though it was a while before he progressed to getting a suspended sentence, through a plea bargain, for funding the procurement of helicopters for a military coup in West Africa. Daughter Carol had probably just been dumped by future criminal Jonathan Aitken (once he'd realised that romancing her wasn't going to help him up the Thatcherite greasy career pole), before moving on to a glittering career in "I'm a Celebrity".

- Save your tears, Matt, for....Gordon Brown, whose infant child's health problems were splashed in "The Sun" after News International illicitly obtained information from the child's records via a member of hospital staff. The details are shrouded in mystery, but this is an organisation proven to have invaded privacy and paid money to reveal people's secrets, riding roughshod over people's lives in the cynical pursuit of a fast buck....the perfect epitome of the Thatcher doctrine that you so worship!

[Webbo]

This decidedly unclassy comment doesn't merit much response, but a few facts are called for:

- Labour's candidate's comments were written in 1998, in a book remembering his feelings about the Thatcher regime. They have obviously been raked up as a dirt-throwing exercise by the manipulative right-wing press that you get your opinions from.

Where do you get your opinions from? Is it possible that people can think for themselves and agree with something just because they agree with something?

[The Doctor]

I'm sure theres plenty of voters who would vote for them in a general election, but I believe by-elections often have a higher percentage of protest votes, and I would imagine the UKIP would get a good share of them.

And if my voting history is anything to go by those protest votes are usually a load of cocks drawn on the ballot and filling all white space with "galloway is a cunt".

[Guest MattP]

This decidedly unclassy comment doesn't merit much response, but a few facts are called for:

- Save your tears, Matt, for....Gordon Brown, whose infant child's health problems were splashed in "The Sun" after News International illicitly obtained information from the child's records via a member of hospital staff. The details are shrouded in mystery, but this is an organisation proven to have invaded privacy and paid money to reveal people's secrets, riding roughshod over people's lives in the cynical pursuit of a fast buck....the perfect epitome of the Thatcher doctrine that you so worship!

Whatever the excuse, the comment is what it is. 80's or not, the time or not, he openly admitted he wanted our armed forces to be defeated and he openly wished the elected (she wasn't that hated was she) PM was killed. That's pretty sick and if you write that down you can be judged by it. If the Tories had endorsed a candidate that had wished death upon a Labour leader I'm sure you wouldn't mind mentioning it. (and I wouldn't put it all down the manipulative left wing press either)

Gordon Brown wasn't exactly shy about shedding a few tears about his son was he? Remember Piers Morgan and that pathetic self-serving interview we were all subject to. 'Vote for me, I'm a modern love story and we lost our first child'. Truly sickening stuff. Pathetic.

Your an interesting read on these pages usually but your defence of the Labour party stretches into Alastair Campbell territory at times.

[FoxyPV]

A poor showing in Eastleigh would further sharpen the knives for Cameron. The backbenchers don't like him, even though he's the most popular thing about the party.

He'll still be there come 2015 bar something catastrophic or internal insanity.

Past 2015.......

I don't think there's much point in Labour going in all guns blazing for a seat they have little chance in getting and if they poll really badly then the media on all sides will use it as a stick to beat Ed. It's lose / lose really.

[FoxyPV]

Whatever the excuse, the comment is what it is. 80's or not, the time or not, he openly admitted he wanted our armed forces to be defeated and he openly wished the elected (she wasn't that hated was she) PM was killed. That's pretty sick and if you write that down you can be judged by it. If the Tories had endorsed a candidate that had wished death upon a Labour leader I'm sure you wouldn't mind mentioning it. (and I wouldn't put it all down the manipulative left wing press either)

Gordon Brown wasn't exactly shy about shedding a few tears about his son was he? Remember Piers Morgan and that pathetic self-serving interview we were all subject to.

Your an interesting read on these pages usually but your defence of the Labour party stretches into Alastair Campbell territory at times.

Was this not done after Cameron had used his son as political point scoring?

[Webbo]

Was this not done after Cameron had used his son as political point scoring?

IIrc after his disabled son died he didn't make any attempt at point scoring about it.

[Guest MattP]

Was this not done after Cameron had used his son as political point scoring?

Nope, Brown beat him to it by a few days. Cameron was asked about a couple of weeks after mind. I don't think he intentionally wanted it spoken about.

http://www.dailymail...breaks-STV.html

[FoxyPV]

IIrc after his disabled son died he didn't make any attempt at point scoring about it.

I thought he was very open and public about his son's illness in a bid to curry some favour with voters. I could be wrong, but that was my impression.

[Guest MattP]

I thought he was very open and public about his son's illness in a bid to curry some favour with voters. I could be wrong, but that was my impression.

It happened while he was in office, it was going to come up. Brown's happened about ten years before.

When Call me Dave goes to see Simon Cowell for a pre planned interview a couple of months before the 2020 election, you can put him in the same boat.

[I am Rod Hull]

Modern elections are like choosing which character to have on Super Mario Kart... Mario, Wario, Luigi or whoever.

It means nothing....

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Modern elections are like choosing which character to have on Super Mario Kart... Mario, Wario, Luigi or whoever.

It means nothing....

Waluigi had the most balanced stats for my style of play in Mario Kart DS, and without him in Mario Kart 7 I really struggle.

Really does seem to have more impact than who runs the country sometimes, sadly...

[Alf Bentley]

Where do you get your opinions from? Is it possible that people can think for themselves and agree with something just because they agree with something?

We all get our opinions from a variety of sources, including upbringing, experience, personality and the media we are exposed to, voluntarily or involuntarily. Like anyone else, I have prejudices. I try to challenge them by engaging with people who have different views. I also try to ask myself the famous FT "source?!" question. My "manipulative right-wing press" comment was because O'Farrell made his comments in a book 15 years ago, remembering his thoughts in his early 20s....Who do you think has raised them now and with what motive?

Whatever the excuse, the comment is what it is. 80's or not, the time or not, he openly admitted he wanted our armed forces to be defeated and he openly wished the elected (she wasn't that hated was she) PM was killed. That's pretty sick and if you write that down you can be judged by it. If the Tories had endorsed a candidate that had wished death upon a Labour leader I'm sure you wouldn't mind mentioning it. (and I wouldn't put it all down the manipulative left wing press either)

Gordon Brown wasn't exactly shy about shedding a few tears about his son was he? Remember Piers Morgan and that pathetic self-serving interview we were all subject to. 'Vote for me, I'm a modern love story and we lost our first child'. Truly sickening stuff. Pathetic.

Your an interesting read on these pages usually but your defence of the Labour party stretches into Alastair Campbell territory at times.

O'Farrell was 20 at the time of the Falklands and 22 or so at the time of the Brighton bomb. When you're 50, will you want to be judged by your views as a very young man (even if he did report them himself in his 30s)?

Yes, Thatcher's party was elected as it won more votes/seats than any other (though the Lab/SDP split helped). So did Labour in 1997, 2001 & 2005. That doesn't prevent either from being "divisive" - and if you are seriously challenging the idea that a lot of people hated Thatcher, you are simply wrong. As I said first time, Thatcher was loved by many and hated by many.

I note that you don't repeat your implication that O'Farrell fantasised about Thatcher's children being left motherless. If you are standing by that comment (which is probably libelous), you should quote your source. If not, you should withdraw it. O'Farrell is the same age as me so would have been well aware that Mark & Carol Thatcher were adults, as they were semi-celebrities, as the PMs kids and rather outrageous characters (well, Mark at least). Otherwise, your comment stands as a cheap attempt to distort the truth. Withdraw it, Matt! We all say stupid things sometimes; I certainly do!

I didn't see the Piers Morgan interview, but the idea of either Brown or Cameron - or almost any other politician - using personal lives as public relations to help their careers doesn't surprise me. Sadly, a lot of politics is about PR these days. The fact remains that Brown's kid's illness was first revealed by The Sun and the NHS has apologised to him for revealing the info.

You are wrong to see me as a Labour apologist. Many years ago, I was a member, but I became disillusioned. I voted Lib Dem in 2001 & 2005, and only tactically for Labour in 2010. I'd expect to vote Green next time. Your manipulation of the truth about O'Farrell's comments seems much more reminiscent of the despicable (but interesting) Alastair Campbell!

I'm old enough to remember that the Falklands issue was also controversial at the time, though few would've wished success to a brutal Argentine military junta. Tory austerity cuts to South Atlantic shipping encouraged the "Argies" to believe that Britain wouldn't defend the Falklands. Some thought a peaceful or UN resolution would be possible. An Argentine ship full of conscripts was sunk while probably sailing outside the declared exclusion zone and hundreds died, not to mention the British troops killed. At the time (1982), Thatcher wasn't very popular due to unemployment and some saw it as a gung-ho electioneering move. Of course, once combat was engaged, most supported the troops - and Thatcher (re-elected by landslide a year later, helped by Lab/SDP division). If O'Farrell opposed military action at the time, he was far from alone. Any comment hoping Britain would lose would have been immature...but he'd have been my age then, 20 years old. How mature were you at that age? I can certainly think of equally stupid things that I did and said when much older! I'd also be interested to see your source, again...

Enough! Bedtime, then work! I'll read your future comments on this or other topics with interest, but please, no more cheap distortions!

[Vacamion]

- Labour's candidate's comments were written in 1998, in a book remembering his feelings about the Thatcher regime. They have obviously been raked up as a dirt-throwing exercise by the manipulative right-wing press that you get your opinions from.

Wrong.

It was "raked up" by the Prime Minister, in a response during Prime Minister's Questions, in the House of Commons yesterday.

You were a bit quick to judgement there.

Maybe that's what you wanted to believe.

[Alf Bentley]

Wrong.

It was "raked up" by the Prime Minister, in a response during Prime Minister's Questions, in the House of Commons yesterday.

You were a bit quick to judgement there.

Maybe that's what you wanted to believe.

Maybe it is you who were a bit quick to judgment...

Daily Mail 17th Feb: http://www.dailymail...-candidate.html

O'Farrell responding to Daily Mail smear - BBC 17th Feb: http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-21492430

Peter Hitchens 24th Feb: http://www.dailymail...ing-giggle.html

So, in the absence of evidence of other sources, it seems like a classic Daily Mail/Peter Hitchens smear that Cameron has picked up on for party advantage.

Perhaps you or Matt have other sources? In particular, what is the source for Matt's suggestion that O'Farrell fantasised about Thatcher's (adult!) children being left without a mother? I've only skimmed the Mail/Hitchens articles, but even they don't seem to stoop that low. Until Matt reveals his source for that, I'll assume that was poison of his own fabrication.

For anyone interested in O'Farrell's 1998 book about his misspent youth in the Labour Party, here's the Amazon link: http://www.amazon.co...62043484&sr=1-3 (at time of writing, it rates 4.2 out of 5 from 53 reviews, some of them favourable reviews from Tory supporters)

[Vacamion]

Maybe it is you who were a bit quick to judgment...

Daily Mail 17th Feb: http://www.dailymail...-candidate.html

O'Farrell responding to Daily Mail smear - BBC 17th Feb: http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-21492430

Peter Hitchens 24th Feb: http://www.dailymail...ing-giggle.html

So, in the absence of evidence of other sources, it seems like a classic Daily Mail/Peter Hitchens smear that Cameron has picked up on for party advantage.

Perhaps you or Matt have other sources? In particular, what is the source for Matt's suggestion that O'Farrell fantasised about Thatcher's (adult!) children being left without a mother? I've only skimmed the Mail/Hitchens articles, but even they don't seem to stoop that low. Until Matt reveals his source for that, I'll assume that was poison of his own fabrication.

For anyone interested in O'Farrell's 1998 book about his misspent youth in the Labour Party, here's the Amazon link: http://www.amazon.co...62043484&sr=1-3 (at time of writing, it rates 4.2 out of 5 from 53 reviews, some of them favourable reviews from Tory supporters)

No, you misunderstand me.

You suggested that MattP heard about this in the "right wing press":

- Labour's candidate's comments were written in 1998, in a book remembering his feelings about the Thatcher regime. They have obviously been raked up as a dirt-throwing exercise by the manipulative right-wing press that you get your opinions from

when he might just have picked up on it after the PM mentioned it in the Commons at PMQs.

[Alf Bentley]

No, you misunderstand me.

You suggested that MattP heard about this in the "right wing press"

when he might just have picked up on it after the PM mentioned it in the Commons at PMQs.

Point taken that Matt may have only heard about the issue directly from Cameron's speech.

In theory, it could also be coincidental that Cameron chose to raise comments in a 15-year-old book just a few days after the Daily Mail (possibly other rags, too; I don't read them) used them as the basis for a smear story. That beggars belief, though.

In truth, I imagine that a Tory adviser drew the Daily Mail smear to Cameron's attention for him to use to party advantage.

So, until Matt comes back to state his source, I'll amend my accusation to suggest that he got this opinion "from the manipulative right-wing press, but maybe filtered through David Cameron". Funny how politics and the media feed off one another...

Did you find any sources to support Matt's suggestion that O'Farrell "fantasised" about Thatcher's (adult) children being left motherless? Or is that a bit of gilding that Matt has added himself?

[Vacamion]

It's not for me to speak for Matt, but I think that the phrase:

"'In October 1984, when the Brighton bomb went off, I felt a surge of excitement at the nearness of her demise and yet disappointment that such a chance had been missed."

pretty much wishes her dead.

Everyone knows Thatcher is a mother. It's not that big a leap from there to suggest that he entertained fantasies about leaving her children wiithout a mother.

[Alf Bentley]

It's not for me to speak for Matt, but I think that the phrase:

"'In October 1984, when the Brighton bomb went off, I felt a surge of excitement at the nearness of her demise and yet disappointment that such a chance had been missed."

pretty much wishes her dead.

Everyone knows Thatcher is a mother. It's not that big a leap from there to suggest that he entertained fantasies about leaving her children wiithout a mother.

I've not read the book (might buy it now, though, as the Amazon reviews are good - and I was a Labour Party member, on and off, 1980-94ish). Judging from the reviews/blurb, it seems to be a humorous, retrospective account of his youth as a Labour activist in the 1980s. Apparently, he takes the piss out of himself for scrawling "Jobs, not bombs." with a comma and full stop, and for his earnestness and lack of a sex life. He wrote the book in 1998, reporting his memories of being 20-odd.

He admits his feeling about wanting Thatcher dead when he was about 22, an immature thought that he no longer supports (see the BBC link I inserted earlier). Christ! If people judged me on what I said and did at 22, I'd be locked up!

MattP drew the parallel of someone "fantasising about Gordon Brown's children being left fatherless". I really hated Thatcher at the time and wouldn't have been sorry to hear that she had died, but it never occurred to me to fantasise about her children suffering pain....that is indeed "a big leap" to my mind. Plus, if someone refers to "children left motherless/fatherless", I generally think of minors, not a playboy businessman on the Paris-Dakar rally (Mark T) or a journalist just out of an affair with an MP (Carol). If, say, The Guardian reports that Cameron threw a champagne bottle through an Oxford window in 1990 and Milliband repeats this, does that justify me coming on here, expressing false outrage that Cameron is an active alcoholic hooligan?!

However... a few years back I was in Spain when ETA blew up a Spanish politician. There were massive protest demos - and people were particularly outraged that a democratically-elected politician had been killed, regardless of what they thought of his politics...because living under a dictatorship was a recent memory. Democracy should be treasured by all, including politicians who might seek to manipulate it. O'Farrell was wrong to feel what he did at the time (though it was understandable - he was clearly a passionate young man at a time of great polarisation and conflict), but I think that he long since realised that.

More harm is done to political debate by people actively distorting the truth to deceive people than is done by people remembering the stupid ideas they once held.

Really must do some work now....and must stop boring the pants off people with all this gas, too!

[Guest MattP]

It's not for me to speak for Matt, but I think that the phrase:

"'In October 1984, when the Brighton bomb went off, I felt a surge of excitement at the nearness of her demise and yet disappointment that such a chance had been missed."

pretty much wishes her dead.

Everyone knows Thatcher is a mother. It's not that big a leap from there to suggest that he entertained fantasies about leaving her children wiithout a mother.

I don't think I need to add anything to what Vacamion has said!

That's pretty much it, when a guy says he felt excitement at the fact someone was nearly murdered in cold blood I don't think it's distorting fact to say he was fantasisiing about her children being left without a mother. (We are still children aren't we to our parents).

I did get the Falklands quote from Cameron. It's a shame some people aren't so passionate about criticising the left wing press when they bring up the past of certain right wingers.

I'm not withdrawing the accusation, I even sent him the accusation on Twitter to him personally yesterday along with quite a few others and he sent out some half hearted apology and how it was a 'right wing plot' (pattern developing here) to discredit him. So I don't think he assumed it was libelous. If he wants to go to court and bring all this up again to decide what a judge thinks I and I'm sure many others would be only too happy to oblige.

For someone who claims not to be a Labour apologist Alf you don't half make a good effort at defending every mistake they have made.

And I would never vote tactically, If I became 'disillusioned' with the Tory party my vote goes elsewhere, I wouldn't come back to them to keep others out, cop out and one the major things wrong with British politics

[Guest MattP]

You a Trade Union Rep Alf?

[Guest MattP]

Back to the actual by-election anyway. This Labour candidates has had more PR on here than he will get all night.

Liberals are 3 pts ahead in todays poll, UKIP and Tories now neck and neck.

[Alf Bentley]

For someone who claims not to be a Labour apologist Alf you don't half make a good effort at defending every mistake they have made.

And I would never vote tactically, If I became 'disillusioned' with the Tory party my vote goes elsewhere, I wouldn't come back to them to keep others out, cop out and one the major things wrong with British politics

I won't say anything more about O'Farrell, as we've both given our opinions. If you think I've not addressed any of your points, let me know; but I think that I have in previous posts.

However, re. me defending all Labour's mistakes....Quite apart from going on the big London demo against Iraq, I posted this about 3 days ago:

"Labour were irresponsible in various ways. They shouldn't have encouraged the deregulation of the financial sector (though the Tories would've done the same). They shouldn't have run a small deficit during a boom, even if the big deficit was only created by the financial crash - as a non-Labour leftie, I think they should have taxed more, though a rightie would prefer lower spending (though major investment in health, education & child poverty was needed - and back then Cameron said he'd maintain Labour spending plans before the crash changed everything). Above all, Labour shouldn't have used PFI schemes to fund current investment by effectively stealing from future generations (though the Tories have maintained this policy)".

Re. tactical voting: I'd prefer not to have to vote tactically, which is partly why I support electoral reform - and my Green vote next time will not be tactical. I voted tactically in 2010 (in Leicester South) as I thought (wrongly) that the Lib Dems might win because of "Cleggmania" and Lib Dems targeting the student vote with their "no tuition fees" policy - and thought (rightly) that the Lib Dems would end up propping up the Tories...so, for once I thought my vote might actually make a difference to the outcome locally. As it happens, it wasn't even close, so I could have happily voted Green, as I wanted to.

You a Trade Union Rep Alf?

No, was (only at a low level) 25 years ago; I'm a "small businessman" (!) - translator, who needs to get on with his work!

Back to the actual by-election anyway. This Labour candidates has had more PR on here than he will get all night.

Liberals are 3 pts ahead in todays poll, UKIP and Tories now neck and neck.

Thank **** for that! I agree! Any idea what time the result will be announced? If it's any time before about 2.30am, I might stay up, especially as Andrew Neill (my favourite commentator, despite his rightish sympathies) is hosting. This one could be very close - and possibly important for British politics in the next couple of years. Votes swinging from Labour to Lib Dems or UKIP could yet decide it....I have a feeling UKIP might win and the Tories finish third, but I'm probably wrong...

[Guest MattP]

Thank **** for that! I agree! Any idea what time the result will be announced? If it's any time before about 2.30am, I might stay up, especially as Andrew Neill (my favourite commentator, despite his rightish sympathies) is hosting. This one could be very close - and possibly important for British politics in the next couple of years. Votes swinging from Labour to Lib Dems or UKIP could yet decide it....I have a feeling UKIP might win and the Tories finish third, but I'm probably wrong...

Around 2am according to Sky, think I'll be up as well. Andrew Neil is great, lovely fella!

It's starting to look quite good for UKIP in the fact they should finish over the Tories, I still think they will find it difficult to overturn the Lib Dems though, seem to be winning this off a very strong local base and even Nick Clegg get's a terrific reception down there.