JFK , his life and legacy.

[OzFox]

Now that is a new one 

 

C'mon Oz , you gotta admit something's not quite right with the official "lone nut assassin line" 

I'm not sure why there was some sort of cover up of the "big event" . It may have even been for the greater good of the world and prevented a global war. We were all a bit scared of the repercussions at the time if Russia /Cuba was involved . It's hard to express how precariously balanced these things were back then. 

 

We are not being told "something", I  doubt I'll ever find out now though . Maybe another 50 years will have to pass    

 

Sorry but I genuinely think it was just Oswald pulling the trigger. Even his brother thought he was a nut and probably did it.

 

Most of the various conspiracy theories crumble to the touch when you start to look at the actual witness testimonies, You quickly see how the authors of those conspiracy theories have cherry picked witness statements and evidence to fit their case. It really put me off and I used to be right into it like you. Funnily enough, I watched "JFK" on TV last night. I remember watching it when it came out in '91 and feeling outraged at the injustice. Now I feel like a dope for being taken in by it    

 

Having said that, I still find it really interesting. Enough to make me go to Dallas, stand behind the picket fence and check out the 6th floor museum, I even found the Texas Theatre where Oswald was arrested, and Parkland Hospital (although it's changed a lot)

 

You'd flippin' love it

[Mack]

JFK was a real problem for the American establishment.

However he was also a serial adulterer with VD and a drug problem.

He also took advantage of impressionable young women, used them like objects, got them pregnant then demanded they had an abortion.

[OzFox]

JFK was a real problem for the American establishment.

However he was also a serial adulterer with VD and a drug problem.

He also took advantage of impressionable young women, used them like objects, got them pregnant then demanded they had an abortion.

 

Yep. He was a top bloke alright.

 

Such a waste...

[Zingari]

Sorry but I genuinely think it was just Oswald pulling the trigger. Even his brother thought he was a nut and probably did it.

 

Most of the various conspiracy theories crumble to the touch when you start to look at the actual witness testimonies, You quickly see how the authors of those conspiracy theories have cherry picked witness statements and evidence to fit their case. It really put me off and I used to be right into it like you. Funnily enough, I watched "JFK" on TV last night. I remember watching it when it came out in '91 and feeling outraged at the injustice. Now I feel like a dope for being taken in by it    

 

Having said that, I still find it really interesting. Enough to make me go to Dallas, stand behind the picket fence and check out the 6th floor museum, I even found the Texas Theatre where Oswald was arrested, and Parkland Hospital (although it's changed a lot)

 

You'd flippin' love it

I'm not sure how serious you're being with this post , but you don't really think the whole JFK conspiracy theory is built on the Oliver Stone film do you? 

Of course the film has innaccuracies and many of the characters are composite. 

 

Although the film shed new light on the subject to a new generation  , it also brought with it a whole new set of problems in that anyone believing there was a conspiracy is somehow just believing Hollywood myth. 

 

There are many more older documentaty films that are not glitzy and more labouring to watch that tell much more. Even the BBC did a good one a few years back . 

[OzFox]

 

I'm not sure how serious you're being with this post , but you don't really think the whole JFK conspiracy theory is built on the Oliver Stone film do you? 

Of course the film has innaccuracies and many of the characters are composite. 

 

Although the film shed new light on the subject to a new generation  , it also brought with it a whole new set of problems in that anyone believing there was a conspiracy is somehow just believing Hollywood myth. 

 

There are many more older documentaty films that are not glitzy and more labouring to watch that tell much more. Even the BBC did a good one a few years back . 

 

 

See, you're even cherry picking my replies. Classic conspiracy behaviour.

 

"Most of the various conspiracy theories crumble to the touch when you start to look at the actual witness testimonies, You quickly see how the authors of those conspiracy theories have cherry picked witness statements and evidence to fit their case."

[Zingari]

See, you're even cherry picking my replies. Classic conspiracy behaviour.

 

"Most of the various conspiracy theories crumble to the touch when you start to look at the actual witness testimonies, You quickly see how the authors of those conspiracy theories have cherry picked witness statements and evidence to fit their case."

No not really , 

How does Bill Newman's ( or lots of others) stated testimony just "crumble to the touch" ?

Merely just saying he and all the others must be mistaken or have some other ulterior motive doesn't make them "crumble". It just means there is a blinkered view of the events and any other evidence is discarded because it doesn't fit .

 

But I know we're not getting closer to agreement on this     

[OzFox]

No not really , 

How does Bill Newman's ( or lots of others) stated testimony just "crumble to the touch" ?

Merely just saying he and all the others must be mistaken or have some other ulterior motive doesn't make them "crumble". It just means there is a blinkered view of the events and any other evidence is discarded because it doesn't fit .

 

But I know we're not getting closer to agreement on this     

 

Most crumble to the touch. The "JFK was shot accidentally by the secret service guy" is a good example

 

I don't think people like Bill Newman are lying, they're just mistaken about the direction of the final shot. For every witness that says they thought it came from the picket fence, you'll find two that say it came from the book depository. Zapruder said it echoed around the plaza, and he couldn't tell which direction it came from. And as I mentioned once before, he was standing on a plinth with a direct view behind the picket fence.

 

Incidentally, I notice in that video Newman says the side of Kennedy's head was blown out, not the back. At least he wasn't mistaken about that

[Zingari]

Most crumble to the touch. The "JFK was shot accidentally by the secret service guy" is a good example

 

I don't think people like Bill Newman are lying, they're just mistaken about the direction of the final shot. For every witness that says they thought it came from the picket fence, you'll find two that say it came from the book depository. Zapruder said it echoed around the plaza, and he couldn't tell which direction it came from. And as I mentioned once before, he was standing on a plinth with a direct view behind the picket fence.

 

Incidentally, I notice in that video Newman says the side of Kennedy's head was blown out, not the back. At least he wasn't mistaken about that

Yes but you're only considering that those who heard or saw shots from anywhere other than TSBD are mistaken .

 

is it really that inconceivable to you  that shots could have been fired from more than one  location? 

[ADK]

I don't think there is much evidence to suggest there was more than one gunman.

 

The only real leeway for conspiracy imo is whether LHO was acting on his own impulse or in agreement with someone else. However there is no real evidence of a plot.

[OzFox]

What he said

 

It's not inconceivable that shots were fired from another direction, just very unlikely on the balance of evidence provided by ALL the witnesses, not just a few

[sphericalfox]

http://nsarchive.wordpress.com/2013/11/20/kennedys-last-act-reaching-out-to-cuba/

[Guest ttfn]

The thing is that based on the evidence of the shooting alone, I find it hard to conclude anything other than that there was one shooter.

 

What is intriguing is the whole back story. Kennedy was alienating a lot of those with serious influence around him. Oswald being shot by Ruby is odd as well. One lone nut shooting is weird, but two seems to be stretching credibility. Ruby in particular is a fascinating character.

 

And that's before you even get on to Oswald's background. I'd be interested to know how many Americans defected to Russia in the 1960s before returning but I'd be surprised if it was even in the thousands.

 

But I have to say that in my view the evidence of the shooting itself seems to suggest just Oswald (or at least somebody on the 6th floor of the TSBD) did it.

[ADK]

You have to deal in actual facts in these cases. I would say it is beyond reasonable doubt that LHO fired the shots that killed the president. There is also no evidence to suggest a plot, or that there were multiple gunmen or that the whole thing was a hoax and the real president was abducted by aliens. However, just like religion, you can use the fact that it is basically impossible to prove or disprove anything with 100% certainty to create conspiracies .

[Rincewind]

How good a marksman was LHO? The trouble with a lot of the documentories is they show evidence from one POV or another. The one the other week led to the conclusion that it was an accident. I would rather believe that than it being a plot. Was it possible that LHO could fire three quick shots in succession when an expert marksman could not? There was only one fatal shot as far as I am aware. The other two missed.

[Zingari]

Buell Wesley Frazier, Billy Lovelady and Otis Williams, three men who were standing on the front steps of the TSBD, directly underneath the supposed sniper’s nest, claimed that all the shots came from the general direction of the knoll.

http://22november1963.org.uk/jfk-assassination-grassy-knoll-witnesses

so even some  witnesses directly below said that shots came from a different location , surely shots coming from directly above them would be pretty obvious to them all . 

 

I've also seem many photos of witnesses rushing towards the picket fence ( oh yeah because one policeman misheard and lead the charge , right yeah ok) but why was there no mass  storming at the TSBD building ? 

Oswald casually walked out ( after drinking a coke in the rest room )even though so many witnesses had supposedly seen shots from there .

 

Highly unlikely imo 

[Jimothy]

Buell Wesley Frazier, Billy Lovelady and Otis Williams, three men who were standing on the front steps of the TSBD, directly underneath the supposed sniper’s nest, claimed that all the shots came from the general direction of the knoll.

http://22november1963.org.uk/jfk-assassination-grassy-knoll-witnesses

so even some  witnesses directly below said that shots came from a different location , surely shots coming from directly above them would be pretty obvious to them all . 

 

I've also seem many photos of witnesses rushing towards the picket fence ( oh yeah because one policeman misheard and lead the charge , right yeah ok) but why was there no mass  storming at the TSBD building ? 

Oswald casually walked out ( after drinking a coke in the rest room )even though so many witnesses had supposedly seen shots from there .

 

Highly unlikely imo

Wasn't he also seen in the rest room on the second floor where he bought the coke something like 90 secs after the final shot? In that time he'd supposedly packed his gun up, hid it away and ran down from the sixth floor, in a building with no lifts. Impressive! They shouldn't have charged him, they should have put him the Olympic team!

[Zingari]

How good a marksman was LHO? The trouble with a lot of the documentories is they show evidence from one POV or another. The one the other week led to the conclusion that it was an accident. I would rather believe that than it being a plot. Was it possible that LHO could fire three quick shots in succession when an expert marksman could not? There was only one fatal shot as far as I am aware. The other two missed.

The Warren commission originally declared that the first shot hit JFK in the neck , the second hit Connelly in the back and caused his wrist and leg injuries  and the third was the Head shot .

However it was discovered that James Tague was hit by flying concrete from a bullet near the underpass so all the injuries to both men had to be explained by just 2 bullets. that's when they were forced to  come up with the magic bullet theory. 

 

This looks very much like making the evidence fit the conclusion rather than coming to a conclusion after reviewing it all  to me.

[notnow john]

I recently watched the "missing bullet" documentary and it made a compelling argument that

LHO was the lone gunman.

I agree with ttfn that the Jack Ruby involvement would suggest it implausible he acted alone.

This IMO is where any conspiracy lies.

Enjoyed the thread Zing ,you obviously have a consuming passion for the subject.

As you said earlier its better than watching Eastenders -

but not Dallas eh!!

[Rincewind]

Would there not be noise from the crowd? It would be difficult to be certain where the shots came from with echoes and movement of cars etc.

[yorkie1999]

Thing is, if you were going to assassinate a president, would you do it from your place of work , with a crowd of people under you? I think not.

[Zingari]

Would there not be noise from the crowd? It would be difficult to be certain where the shots came from with echoes and movement of cars etc.

Why and how  can anyone so certain it's just from the TSBD and just the TSBD alone then ?,

 

Surely if there's uncertainty it applies to both those that say the shots came from grassy knoll and any other location . Why are only those witnesses claiming shots from behind the fence ignored ? why are all those people running towards the fence classed as stupid sheep who are only following the lead of one policeman but anyone who saw something six floor up must be 100% correct. it makes no sense whatsoever to dismiss  eyewitnesses like this unless there is a forgone conclusion to be arrived at.

 

 

It's said that a picture can speak a 1000 words and this one is saying at least 2 with a smile and a wink and that's , " mission accomplished"

[OzFox]

Why and how  can anyone so certain it's just from the TSBD and just the TSBD alone then ?,

 

Surely if there's uncertainty it applies to both those that say the shots came from grassy knoll and any other location . Why are only those witnesses claiming shots from behind the fence ignored ? why are all those people running towards the fence classed as stupid sheep who are only following the lead of one policeman but anyone who saw something six floor up must be 100% correct. it makes no sense whatsoever to dismiss  eyewitnesses like this unless there is a forgone conclusion to be arrived at.

 

 

It's said that a picture can speak a 1000 words and this one is saying at least 2 with a smile and a wink and that's , " mission accomplished"

 

Those eyewitnesses arent' "dismissed", they are simply outweighed by the number of people saying it came from the book depository. So for me, it's the most likely explanation.

 

Some conspiracy authors have blatantly distorted the events and witness testimonies, or exaggerated the numbers in favour of "grassy knoll" witnesses. The figures and statements are freely available for anyone to read, so the authors haven't helped their case by fiddling with the facts. What they have done though is helped their book sales

[Zingari]

Those eyewitnesses arent' "dismissed", they are simply outweighed by the number of people saying it came from the book depository. So for me, it's the most likely explanation.

 

Some conspiracy authors have blatantly distorted the events and witness testimonies, or exaggerated the numbers in favour of "grassy knoll" witnesses. The figures and statements are freely available for anyone to read, so the authors haven't helped their case by fiddling with the facts. What they have done though is helped their book sales

You keep somehow insisting that eyewitnesses that saw shots from the TSBD somehow make any other accounts null and void . that's a ludicrous position to take . 

It doesnt matter if more people saw shots from the TSBD than the hill ( and I'm not convinced they did , but it's totally irrelevant anyway) . 

It's not some highest amount of witnesses game is the winner .Witnesses aren't "outweighed" in this way .  The two accounts are not mutually exclusive  . The fact is that it's possible and even  probable that shots came from both or even more locations than just the TSBD given the amount of testimonies that testify to each. 

What is relevant is the amount of testimonies that were purposefully ignored by the commission .

50 years on , don't you think if it was all so neat and tidy the whole thing would have blown over by now ? They regularly have polls in the USA to gauge opinion and very rarely do the polls say that less than 65-70% of the population believe the official story . Why do you think that is? 

[OzFox]

 

You keep somehow insisting that eyewitnesses that saw shots from the TSBD somehow make any other accounts null and void . that's a ludicrous position to take . 

It doesnt matter if more people saw shots from the TSBD than the hill ( and I'm not convinced they did , but it's totally irrelevant anyway) . 

It's not some highest amount of witnesses game is the winner .Witnesses aren't "outweighed" in this way .  The two accounts are not mutually exclusive  . The fact is that it's possible and even  probable that shots came from both or even more locations than just the TSBD given the amount of testimonies that testify to each. 

What is relevant is the amount of testimonies that were purposefully ignored by the commission .

50 years on , don't you think if it was all so neat and tidy the whole thing would have blown over by now ? They regularly have polls in the USA to gauge opinion and very rarely do the polls say that less than 65-70% of the population believe the official story . Why do you think that is? 

 

 

Weight of actual evidence. It's enough to convince me, the offical investigation and most rational observers.

 

Read the actual testimonies instead of poorly researched conspiracy books, and you might come to the same conclusion. Same goes for the 65-70%

[Fox92]

Did LHO ever admit to actually shooting? ... I watched a video of LHO's death yesterday (for the first time), and the reporter seems to ask 'did you shoot the president?' and before LHO can answer, Ruby pops out of nowhere, and "the rest is history".

 

-- Sorry for the simple questions, I've only just starting watching all the videos and getting into this more.