oadby.fox

Certainly more entertaining than the games

Don’t worry, we’ll get promoted when Justin returns from injury.

We should get him down to the KP for the run in, can’t hurt our chances.

FIGHT AND WIN

Why Soumare again?

Really good from KDH

They have a better manager - simple as that.

I think BR’s done well to get us to the stage where we can go to Brentford and keep the score to 1-0. We can’t compare ourselves to sides like this, it’s like a mini racing a Merc.

Crime and Punishment

Thanks for your response. The comparison to the play-off system is interesting, though I do think that there is a salient difference given the knock-out win or lose element. You can accept losing a single game in a pressurised situation, especially in the case of a marginal defeat or when the other team just outclasses you. But failing to pick up points in games that you would usually expect to get something from anyway and failing to do so in a dramatic or calamitous way just feels very much to me like bottling. The Bournemouth game, for instance, was a matter of mentality and managerial incompetence, and given our relative strength and form, we should’ve won that game and we were also in a position to do so. You’re right that in terms of the season’s objectives, a top five finish would’ve achieved the aim of finishing in the top six and we also have good reason to think that getting in to Europe was an objective set by the club. So in that sense, it’s good and it is a significant achievement which is why I said it’d be harsh to have sacked him at the end of either season. But I think that objectives can reasonably shift over the course of the season, especially if things are in touching distance and the teams around you have been poor all season. It’s not like we ended up finishing miles outside of the top four either, even Brendan said that it was in our own hands and we screwed it up. The 2-3 Spurs game for example was a match where you’d go into it happy for a point and you wouldn’t be incredibly mad with well fought loss. But once you’re 2-1 up with seconds to play, you can now reasonably expect to win the game. As in, if you don’t win with the position you’re in, then it would be fair to say that you’ve thrown it away. Something else to add is that Brendan came into a seemingly well run club with a good bill of player health and some absolute gems. As a slightly unrealistic hypothetical, if you were to go out and sell each of member the first eleven in 2020, I think that you could easily raise ~£330m, and many players were young with a lot of upside and potential to improve. A good manager would’ve improved those players further but even still, there was more than enough quality there to warrant an expectation of at least finishing in the top ten and this was partly why Puel was sacked. To my mind, an expectation of lower mid table isn’t fitting with the actual quality we have, the money we have spent both on recruitment (buying and not selling more valuable players) and facilities, and the money we pay the manager. Especially in a season like this one where so many clubs around us are consistently poor. Even newly promoted sides sit above us, so it’s not a case of not having the money or quality to compete at this level. I still believe that there is some quality still left in this side, just that it needs to be nurtured and well motivated. The fact that BR didn’t see the Southampton game as a “must win” kind of says it all for me. The problem here concerns the mentality of how the team approach these games and there’s enough evidence to believe that this is coming from the manager. My Liverpool supporting mate (who also has links inside the club) was saying the other day that he genuinely thinks that there’s something slightly off about the bloke and that he created such a toxic atmosphere within the club. I think something similar is happening here and letting him do it is criminal when we consider how it’s depreciating the value of our players.

I think you’re missing the point of what people are identifying with the two collapses in terms of trajectory. In both seasons, our destiny was in our own hands and we just had to put away the teams at the bottom end of the table in order to achieve top four. Instead, we suffered embarrassing defeats. On your definition of bottling, the only teams that can ever bottle are the ones which are winning trophies every season. By that way of reasoning, Man U have been a top team for the past decade but have just bottled the premier league every year. A more accurate view would be that Man U declined following Fergie’s departure and spent many years in relative obscurity/turmoil - we no longer expected them to even achieve top four or win the league because they never put themselves in a position to look likely. Where we can “expect” or reasonably hope to be is where we should be given 1. Our form and squad strength relative to others; 2. The form of other teams around us and their relative squad strength; 3. Our run of fixtures. Given how many days we spent in the top four across two seasons and the position other teams were in, it’s not insane to suggest that we could expect to finish in the top four. Doing so required nothing more than the form of a mid table side, instead we were treated to something more like relegation form in the close of both seasons. Spurs aren’t called bottlers because we expect them to win a title each year and they fail, it’s because they’ve put themselves in pole position so many times only to fall to pieces when it matters. Being in such a position brings with it the expectation that you’ve now got the advantage such that you should go onto achieve whatever you’re in position for. Whether or not we were once a league 1 side is irrelevant.

I started to turn after the second top four collapse. The FA cup win papered over the cracks in a way though and even though I knew that the team was heading in the wrong direction, it would’ve been harsh to sack BR at that time. Like others have said, it was the 4-1 defeat to Forest which should’ve sealed his fate. Outside of that game, the worries which were present in the previous seasons started to heighten and you could just tell it was all going off the rails. His interviews became increasingly erratic, the performances uglier, weak mentality, horrific injury record etc. In any case, the more important question to ask is why people are still backing him. It shames me to admit that I know people who not only think he can keep us up, but also think that he will rebuild the squad and turn us into a comfortable top 10 side. As long as there are people who are as clueless as this supporting the club, then there is honestly no hope. It doesn’t take a football mastermind to figure out that letting him see his contract out will be more likely to result in consecutive relegations than a return to the top end of the table. Last season, we were really lucky and 8th flattered us. This season we are where we ought to have been last season in all honesty. I’ve already resigned myself to relegation now, there’s no fight anymore and the apathy around the club is so draining.

People said we were broke and couldn’t sign anyone in January and yet we went out and brought three players in. If we can afford to continue to pay him and sign new players, we can definitely afford to sack him and keep the squad as it is/was. The will isn’t there, it’s as simple as that.

We’re on our way, we’re on our way, to the championship, we’re on our way. Brendan Rodgers’ lips are chapped, please somebody sack the tw*t, Vestergaard pack your bags

God, I wish I didn’t ask now as I had somehow managed to repress those Norwich games from my memory! I think what this shows, if anything, is that people could have a legitimate debate about the ordering of some truly crap performances, many of which helped to derail us in either the league or a cup. There have been far too many such that it is now the norm.

Has someone ever compiled a list of the most calamitous performances under BR? That one was awful in so many ways but I wonder if it even breaks the top 5 considering some of the breakdowns in the run-ins which saw us finishing fifth.

Don’t do it to me. I can’t take anymore heartbreak

The real question now is whether we will be able to avoid relegation to league 1 next season and who we will bring in when Rodgers inevitably resigns after taking us down.

Exactly. Huge part of the problem right there, he should’ve walked ages ago and he’s still not under any pressure to motivate the team.

Don’t forget not conceding to warm weather as well

Completely agree. People couldn’t see it then and some don’t even accept it now, thinking that we will stay up with games to spare and go on to challenge again next season once “players are back from injury” and he’s been “backed”. My only regret is not lumping on us to be relegated at the start of the season. But even with my pessimism, I saw us flirting with relegation but finishing no lower than 15th. It seems now that I may have been optimistic! The biggest issue is that a section of the fans will just never turn on him like they did on Puel. I know people that were desperate for Puel to go when we were comfortably mid table and yet Rodgers can manage us into an steep decline but we shouldn’t worry as “it’s only because Ricardo is injured” etc. It is funny that ~3 years have passed and people are still using the same excuses for failing to finish in the top four. Is 3 years not enough time for one of the league’s best paid managers to address these problems?

I appreciate the response. It’s my view that people view things like the “big six” as being a little too static. Yes these teams have all of the money, bigger fanbases etc., but league performance and quality isn’t some static non-comparative measure or something that is fixed by Sky/BT. Teams get better or worse each year and if anything, we’ve shown that you can be competitive if you get the model right. I don’t generally like thinking of whether we are under or overachieving even though that language can make sense in certain scenarios. Where we are in the table is not only a product of how we play and are managed as a club, it’s also the result of what others do or don’t do well. In a season where big teams are “underachieving”, then it might not be an “overachievement” to finish in the top four or five given your squad quality relative to everyone else in the league. But some will look at the fifth place finishes and see it as an overachievement because they view everything through a static lens which isn’t so sensitive to the shifting dynamics present. On this view, we should expect to finish no better than 10th, irrespective of whatever else happens during the season. I don’t think that anyone is arguing that Rodgers has never been good enough or the right man for the job. All things considered, he was the right man to take over after Puel. The question is whether he remains the right man for the job moving forwards. Assessments of aptitude have to be forwards looking and previous success isn’t always a predicate for future glory (especially the more distant the success is). A lot of things came together (and fell apart) for us to finish in the top five and win the FA cup. Some of that is attributable to Rodgers and some of it isn’t. One thing should be clear, however, and that is that things are getting progressively worse. Not many disagreed with the Puel sacking and we were sitting in mid table then. Clearly many thought we should be doing better and we did with a new manager. Similarly, I don’t think we should be at risk of relegation but we are and the performances are becoming increasingly lacklustre. In fact, it’s the manner of the results over the past couple of years which is probably the most worrying thing.

Managers tend to build squads in their image. It’s the leadership off the pitch which has led to building a team with such little fortitude.

Sadly he will be come to be seen as an emblematic Rodgers signing. Player signed without a specific role in mind: ✅ Player is neither a reliable utility player or excels at any particular role: ✅ Vastly overpriced: ✅ Potentially a downgrade on academy options: ✅ Poor strength and lack of mental fortitude: ✅ Signed for terms that make him practically impossible to sell: ✅ Little to no resale value: ✅

The problem with this statement is that the more you keep saying it, the more likely it’ll come true. And for the vast majority of his tenure, it definitely hasn’t been true - heck, even now, a caretaker manager would probably get more out of this team. People were rightfully beginning to question Rodgers after the second collapse in the league and were calling for his head the following season. At the time, others were saying the same thing and assuming that performances couldn’t get any worse. But you can’t argue that other clubs haven’t made half decent appointments in that time or appointments that would at least improve us. The problem is that the longer he stays, the less attractive prospect we are. He’s built a narrative that the club is on a downwards trajectory. If we sacked him after the Forest FA cup defeat, it would’ve sent a clear message that he was underachieving and that the club is aspiring to do better after a blip in form. Instead, we’ve accepted the low standards and sub par performances as somewhat inevitable. The club is digging itself a bigger and bigger hole. The longer he’s here, the lower expectations drop and the more valuable players are happy to run their contracts down. Other players like Ndidi or Soyuncu have gone from being players who would walk into most decent teams in Europe to players who would struggle to get a game at a League 2 side. Then you have the likes of Iheanacho who has been criminally misused during Rodgers’ tenure. This is before we even begin to look at the money burnt on Perez, Vestergaard, Bertrand, Daka, Soumare despite the fact “he’s not been backed” etc., and to the horrendous injury record and mismanagement of players. He’s honestly taking the club apart brick by brick.