ClaphamFox

The nasty spectacle of rugby hooliganism rears its ugly head yet again… https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/two-welsh-fans-in-hospital-after-alleged-attack-by-england-supporters-79rm6xq3v

Very very grim: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67129117

Anti-Semitic attacks in the UK have quadrupled since Hamas committed genocide in Israel. There's no doubt that the UK is currently not a safe place for Jewish people. And to be frank, if I were Jewish and were considering moving to the UK, and I read this thread as a guide to public opinion in this country, I'd be deeply apprehensive. When trying to wrap one's head about violent and complex foreign conflicts, it is always worth trying to put yourself into the position of people on both sides. It is worth remembering, for example, that Israel was created immediately in the wake of, and in direct response to, the murder of at least six million Jewish people in the Holocaust. It is also worth bearing in mind that Israel is currently surrounded by countries that would commit another holocaust if they were able to. Hamas and Hezobollah are both open about the fact that they would murder everybody in Israel if they could get away with it, and their views aren't unusual or considered particularly extreme in the Arab world. Surely it is not too much of a stretch to understand why Israel has a robust approach to self-defence, especially in the immediate aftermath of the worst mass murder of Jewish people since World War II. On the other hand, you can put yourself in the position of somebody from Palestine - the deep sense of historic grievance over the perception of stolen land, the brutal occupation, the blockade of Gaza, the reckless violence of Israeli forces in the West Bank (which very likely can be classed as war crimes), etc. The list of very legitimate grievances goes on. Since the attack by Hamas, many people have expressed concern about a disproportionate response from Israel. And I agree with them - I don't want ordinary Palestinian people to be killed or have their homes destroyed either. But it does raise the question of what exactly is a 'proportionate' response to a terrorist group committing a pogrom on Israeli soil (if such a thing happened in the UK, I don't think I'd be calling on our government to show restraint). I think it would be a good thing for humanity if Hamas were wiped from the face of the earth, but unfortunately there is no way of accomplishing that without a massive loss of life for ordinary Palestinians. So like most people I'm deeply apprehensive about Israel's invasion of Gaza and what will follow. This is probably just an elaborate way of saying that this is a very complex situation, with very legitimate grievances on both sides. It surprises me and depresses me when people adopt massively oversimplified positions on it - as if they've got a finite amount of empathy, and they've decided to allocate all of it to one side and none to the other. The day after Hamas killed all those people in Israel, a facebook friend of mine changed his background pic to the Palestine flag. I'd have absolutely no problem with that in normal circumstances, but to do that the day after the massacre of Israeli people - including babies - shows a level of callous disregard for human suffering that I can only wonder at. And yet it seems to have been a widely-shared emotional response in the UK.

I drove southbound at 7pm and the queue on the northbound was still huge.

Who's his work mate? Or are you blaming his Black & Decker...?

A bummer if she finally meets her dream man next week but has already blown her wedding savings getting married to herself.

The Long Shadow is very good. I liked the way they focused on telling the victims' stories rather on Sutcliffe, and avoided deploying too many of the usual cheap tricks to build dramatic tension, etc. As other have said, the incompetence of the police was quite extraordinary - Oldfield's total conviction that the killer was a Geordie based on the hoax tape has to go down as one of the most serious errors of judgment in British policing history (and it would be up against some pretty stiff competition). I'm not sure if I can face The Reckoning. I'm sure Coogan does an amazing job, but I find Savile's entire persona so vile that I think I'd struggle to get through it.

It was fine. There was disagreement but the tone was respectful. Odd decision to delete it.

I can’t bring myself to view that footage that apparently exists online, but this is now being reported by numerous news organisations. Hamas has apparently been murdering babies, beheading some and burning others alive. If true, it is not surprising - Hamas is an apocalyptic, death-worshipping Muslim terror cult. Pure, undiluted evil.

In the UK we're in an incredibly privileged position of being able to discuss this topic, and that of other conflicts around the world, without having to experience any of the existential threats faced by those actually living through them. Today, my older son attended school and my younger son was taken by his mum to a baby group at the local village hall. I've been working in London with precisely zero fear that either of my children will be shot, kidnapped or blown up by an RPG. If members of this forum met in a pub to debate this topic, there would likely be strong disagreement and it would probably get heated, but nobody would try to kill or hurt anybody else. In fact it would probably be a fun evening. It's easy to be complacent about the fact that the UK is a peaceful country in which political disagreements are rarely expressed through violence, but at times like this I'm reminded that not everybody in the world enjoys this privilege. This is not to say that we shouldn't discuss Israel/Hamas or any other situation. But it's a very sobering thought that as we do so, other people are living in utter terror as they and their families face the possibility of death at any moment. We're very, very lucky.

All of this is true. But the violence undertaken by Hamas in recent days has been on a level that anybody with an ounce of humanity should be able to condemn utterly, without equivocation. Yet there are plenty on the left who are seemingly unable to do this, including Jeremy Corbyn and Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf. There seems to be this view among some that while violence inflicted upon Jewish people should not be condoned, it cannot be unambiguously condemned without providing 'context' which somehow explains or excuses the aggression. It's no surprise from Corbyn, btw - he allowed virulent antisemitism to flourish in the Labour Party under his watch and has in the past referred to Hamas as his 'friends'.

I wasn't talking about anybody on here.

Hamas is a Muslim supremacist terrorist organisation dedicated to achieving racial and religious purity in the Middle East. It is no surprise whatsoever to find the attack on Israel being celebrated by white supremacists in the US - they share many of the same beliefs and aspirations. I notice Sinn Fein have also come out to express their solidarity with Hamas. It's difficult to think of any other situation in which some left-wing commentators would respond to the brutal rape and murder of civilians, including children, by equivocating, blaming 'all sides' and refusing to condemn those committing the rapes and murders. But this is Israel and these are Jewish people, so I guess the rules are different.

With respect, you don’t seem to be familiar with the details of the case. In his second trial, the judge told the jury that the prosecution’s entire case rested on the Damien Daley’s claim that Stone confessed to him through the pipes in their adjoining cells. Stone was convicted solely on that evidence - the judge instructed the jury to disregard everything else. Michael Stone had asked to be put into solitary confinement because other prisoners were trying to trick him into saying something incriminating. Having been granted his wish, do you really believe he would then just chose to make a full confession to Daley through the pipes in his cell? It’s utterly ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that Daley is a known liar and convicted murderer and has, according to some of his associates, openly admitted that his evidence against Stone was a pack of lies. That’s my problem with this case. If Stone were on trial today, Daley’s evidence would almost certainly not be admissible because cell ‘confessions’ to other prisoners are now regarded as highly unreliable. Which means there would be no conviction. Despite this, the onus is still on Stone to prove he didn’t do it. It’s insane.

No we don’t. We really don’t. Are you familiar with the ‘evidence’ on which he was convicted? It is virtually non-existent. Do you want to share this ‘circumstantial evidence’ that you mention (and which played no part whatsoever in his conviction)?

It’s a shame that so much of the discussion of Stone’s guilt or innocence seems to focus on Bellfield, who is probably a red herring. I’d prefer it to focus on the total absence of any credible evidence against Stone.

Stone’s convictions are now being formally reviewed by the CCRC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-67038913

Just had a glance at their forum and one poster is claiming that we’re ‘venerable playing out from the back’. Well I think our defence is worthy of respect too but I wouldn’t go that far…. https://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/thread/310218/leicester-city-stoke?page=4

It meant nobody else could get him. If we see him as a long-term prospect with serious potential, snapping him while he was available on the cheap made complete sense.

Yep. It's amazing how Burnley are already being held up as an example of how newly-promoted teams struggle in the PL when a brief glance at their opening fixture list should make anybody pause before passing judgment.

“Shooting from his house.” Brilliant, Enzo 😂

Yes there is a huge gulf between the Premier League and the Championship, but - and this is a key point - I don't think we have a Championship squad. I agree with the likes of Farke, Tomasson and others when they say we have a PL-quality squad. Some teams get relegated from the PL because they simply don't have enough quality in their squad. The effort and motivation might be there, but the quality isn't. However, it isn't always like this - sometimes teams with more than enough quality to stay up end up going down because something else has gone horribly wrong that has destroyed the morale of the squad (usually a manager losing the dressing room). Our relegation last year was in the second category, not the first. Since then we've lost some important players (mainly Maddison and Barnes) but retained many others who are experienced in the PL (KDH, Faes, Ricardo, Justin, Ndidi, Iheanacho, Vardy). Added to which we've bought a couple more experienced PL players in Winks and Coady, and recruited some exciting younger players who might just make the grade. This is why I think our squad, as it current stands, is stronger than the bottom 5-6 in the PL. If we get promoted and have aspirations of finishing above mid-table, obviously we'll need to invest. But our starting point will be much stronger than the vast majority of teams that get promoted from the Championship.

If Hamer hadn’t left Cov in the summer but was looking at his options in January, do you think he’d still choose Sheff Utd over us? Not a chance.

This take is just as ridiculous as arguing that our current squad would finish top six in the PL. We shouldn’t have been anywhere near the relegation zone last year and have retained a large number of PL-standard players, in addition to acquiring a couple of new ones. This squad would survive comfortably, probably just below mid-table. If we get promoted and invest wisely next summer, we can aim to finish in the top half of the PL next season.

Yet you can guarantee that if Iheanacho and Ndidi haven’t signed new contracts by January there will be some folk on here trying to argue it would be better to sell them for nominal fees than ‘lose them on a free’ in the summer…