Rincewind Posted 19 February 2016 Author Posted 19 February 2016 I don't know which part of "we are not asking for more money" is so complicated. I think it is the 'not' part that is being misunderstood.
Thracian Posted 19 February 2016 Posted 19 February 2016 Good thing you're stepping out of this one because that's proof (if anyone needed it) that you disengage your brain going into this subject. It seems ironic to you that people whose profession requires they spend their time in a building filled with sick people might be more likely to catch something than a bloke working in an office (though maybe not more likely than working in your office if you're going in to work harbouring illnesses for others to catch). On top of that you want them to go back into work once they have caught something because going bed-to-bed infecting people already fighting off other illnesses is always a great idea. Christ. Haha, a born socialist. Someone else'll pick up the tab. With your philosophy it'd be a surprise if anyone turned up! I could have done with a boss like you. Any sign of a hangover - take the day off. My mother was a teacher working with kids who were forever getting poorly but I never noticed her getting ill, quite the contrary. She seemed to develop an immunity and I've heard many others say the same. As for not infecting others I'd say the inevitability of NHS workers going to work with all sorts of minor ailments was a daily certainty just like in any other place of employment. The advantage in hospitals is that there are masks, gloves, overalls and even medicines available and, given that relatives can freely walk the hospital wards when visiting people - even those in isolation - I can't imagine it being a problem for staff to do their jobs unless there's something seriously wrong - but yes, I understand, there's no need to tell anyone that! What's another few bob an hour to bring someone else in! It's a good job the NHS isn't a private business with books that have to justify its continued existence though. Just the cost of agency staff under your understanding approach would be colossal. Strange though that concern for the demands placed on the poor health workers doesn't seem to persuade anyone to cut the immigration flow and reduce the burden or demands made on them! It's a strange kind of hypocrisy but no different from Arthur Scargill saying the mines were a hard, dangerous and unhealthy place for any man to work - and then calling Maggie for closing them! Meanwhile some poor sod has to play King Canute and try to hold back the tide of NHS spending. Reading this I'd reckon Canute might have had the better chance of success. http://syndicatednewsheadlines.com/nhs-trusts-overspend-hits-2-26bn-bbc-news/
Carl the Llama Posted 19 February 2016 Posted 19 February 2016 Haha, a born socialist. Someone else'll pick up the tab. With your philosophy it'd be a surprise if anyone turned up! I could have done with a boss like you. Any sign of a hangover - take the day off. My mother was a teacher working with kids who were forever getting poorly but I never noticed her getting ill, quite the contrary. She seemed to develop an immunity and I've heard many others say the same. As for not infecting others I'd say the inevitability of NHS workers going to work with all sorts of minor ailments was a daily certainty just like in any other place of employment. The advantage in hospitals is that there are masks, gloves, overalls and even medicines available and, given that relatives can freely walk the hospital wards when visiting people - even those in isolation - I can't imagine it being a problem for staff to do their jobs unless there's something seriously wrong - but yes, I understand, there's no need to tell anyone that! What's another few bob an hour to bring someone else in! It's a good job the NHS isn't a private business with books that have to justify its continued existence though. Just the cost of agency staff under your understanding approach would be colossal. Strange though that concern for the demands placed on the poor health workers doesn't seem to persuade anyone to cut the immigration flow and reduce the burden or demands made on them! It's a strange kind of hypocrisy but no different from Arthur Scargill saying the mines were a hard, dangerous and unhealthy place for any man to work - and then calling Maggie for closing them! Meanwhile some poor sod has to play King Canute and try to hold back the tide of NHS spending. Reading this I'd reckon Canute might have had the better chance of success. http://syndicatednewsheadlines.com/nhs-trusts-overspend-hits-2-26bn-bbc-news/ Jesus Thrac never mind a chip, you've got a 2-storey Harry Ramsden's on your shoulder.
Bryn Posted 19 February 2016 Posted 19 February 2016 6.88% pay cut, my rota on A+E. I'm on holiday now Matt and the net is shit so I cba to go looking for articles, you can just have that, it's a pretty trivial part of the whole debate anyway.
Carl the Llama Posted 19 February 2016 Posted 19 February 2016 6.88% pay cut, my rota on A+E. I'm on holiday now Matt and the net is shit so I cba to go looking for articles, you can just have that, it's a pretty trivial part of the whole debate anyway. Chin up pal, I hear you have wonderfully lax sick leave, thinking of becoming a medic myself.
Bryn Posted 19 February 2016 Posted 19 February 2016 Last time I was off sick I had Norovirus and was grateful I had a small bathroom cause fetid liquid was pouring from both ends.
Bryn Posted 19 February 2016 Posted 19 February 2016 It's also 2 weekends on 1 off, as opposed to every other weekend like now. That's despite that lying **** we call a health Secretary standing before parliament about 5 days ago to say we'd never work consecutive weekends. We didn't even campaign for that pledge, he's made that off his on back and broken it less than a week later.
Carl the Llama Posted 19 February 2016 Posted 19 February 2016 Last time I was off sick I had Norovirus and was grateful I had a small bathroom cause fetid liquid was pouring from both ends. Wow I can't believe they let you off for that, you should have been doing rounds and working on that immune system of yours, don't you feel bad for the people that had to do extra work in your absence? They certainly shouldn't have to pay you if you weren't even at work!
leicsmac Posted 20 February 2016 Posted 20 February 2016 Haha, a born socialist. Someone else'll pick up the tab. With your philosophy it'd be a surprise if anyone turned up! I could have done with a boss like you. Any sign of a hangover - take the day off. My mother was a teacher working with kids who were forever getting poorly but I never noticed her getting ill, quite the contrary. She seemed to develop an immunity and I've heard many others say the same. As for not infecting others I'd say the inevitability of NHS workers going to work with all sorts of minor ailments was a daily certainty just like in any other place of employment. The advantage in hospitals is that there are masks, gloves, overalls and even medicines available and, given that relatives can freely walk the hospital wards when visiting people - even those in isolation - I can't imagine it being a problem for staff to do their jobs unless there's something seriously wrong - but yes, I understand, there's no need to tell anyone that! What's another few bob an hour to bring someone else in! It's a good job the NHS isn't a private business with books that have to justify its continued existence though. Just the cost of agency staff under your understanding approach would be colossal. Strange though that concern for the demands placed on the poor health workers doesn't seem to persuade anyone to cut the immigration flow and reduce the burden or demands made on them! It's a strange kind of hypocrisy but no different from Arthur Scargill saying the mines were a hard, dangerous and unhealthy place for any man to work - and then calling Maggie for closing them! Meanwhile some poor sod has to play King Canute and try to hold back the tide of NHS spending. Reading this I'd reckon Canute might have had the better chance of success. http://syndicatednewsheadlines.com/nhs-trusts-overspend-hits-2-26bn-bbc-news/ Holy Wyrm of Naaros. Thrac...with the greatest respect I can muster, you don't have the first clue, any kind of clue AT ALL, about working in the NHS - and like Carl I'm glad you've chosen to bow out at this point because your ignorance and lack of respect for those medical professionals as well as thinking that a human life can be defined by its monetary value is utterly, utterly abhorrent. Yes, the paragraph above is self-righteous, and no, I don't care. I hate slander.
Thracian Posted 20 February 2016 Posted 20 February 2016 Holy Wyrm of Naaros. Thrac...with the greatest respect I can muster, you don't have the first clue, any kind of clue AT ALL, about working in the NHS - and like Carl I'm glad you've chosen to bow out at this point because your ignorance and lack of respect for those medical professionals as well as thinking that a human life can be defined by its monetary value is utterly, utterly abhorrent. Yes, the paragraph above is self-righteous, and no, I don't care. I hate slander. There is a huge difference between defining a life by its monetary value and getting the best value from the money you do spend because, while the health service could gobble any amount assigned to it, there are other things that also need to be paid for. And the amount of good money that is wasted in the health service and which could be used to treat people more efficiently, and with fewer mistakes, is scandalous. I don't know about working in the NHS although my father did (and all but wept at the waste) but I do know what it's like to see my son's partner lose her life at childbirth due to highly questionable care and inadequate communication. If you're happy with the level of indefensible mistakes (like cutting off the wrong limb and so on) through which the NHS wastes colossal sums of money then be it on your own conscience but I think the service needs to do better, professionally, administratively and in relation to getting far better value for the money spent. I don't see any slander in saying so. Because how you can somehow imply that the standards referred to below - which don't even refer to absenteeism or the reasons for such high levels - should somehow inspire respect for medical professionals, rather than embarrassing those who do perform brilliantly and with great conscience, I don't know. Nor can I see how the cost of the various shortcomings equates to best value for patients or best value for the funds devoted to the service. You talk about slander yet suggest I'd put a monetary value on human life. Whether I want it or not there is a price - the price relates to the money available to treat people and the professionalism of those who do the treating and facilitate that treatment. The better the standards in every aspect, the better value the care and that means trying to see that all the money is used most effectively all the time. The links listed below show that's clearly not the case and not even nearly the case. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11733719/Medical-blunders-cost-NHS-billions.html https://www.blclaims.co.uk/latest-news/news/2011/04/15/midwife_mistakes_cost_nhs_millions_of_pounds/ https://www.blclaims.co.uk/latest-news/news/2011/04/15/midwife_mistakes_cost_nhs_millions_of_pounds/ http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/news/medication-errors-cost-the-nhs-up-to-25bn-a-year/20066893.article
Thracian Posted 20 February 2016 Posted 20 February 2016 Wow I can't believe they let you off for that, you should have been doing rounds and working on that immune system of yours, don't you feel bad for the people that had to do extra work in your absence? They certainly shouldn't have to pay you if you weren't even at work! I'm just glad he got an accurate diagnosis - even if he did it himself! http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/news/medication-errors-cost-the-nhs-up-to-25bn-a-year/20066893.article
Carl the Llama Posted 20 February 2016 Posted 20 February 2016 There is a huge difference between defining a life by its monetary value and getting the best value from the money you do spend because, while the health service could gobble any amount assigned to it, there are other things that also need to be paid for. And the amount of good money that is wasted in the health service and which could be used to treat people more efficiently, and with fewer mistakes, is scandalous. I don't know about working in the NHS although my father did (and all but wept at the waste) but I do know what it's like to see my son's partner lose her life at childbirth due to highly questionable care and inadequate communication. If you're happy with the level of indefensible mistakes (like cutting off the wrong limb and so on) through which the NHS wastes colossal sums of money then be it on your own conscience but I think the service needs to do better, professionally, administratively and in relation to getting far better value for the money spent. I don't see any slander in saying so. Because how you can somehow imply that the standards referred to below - which don't even refer to absenteeism or the reasons for such high levels - should somehow inspire respect for medical professionals, rather than embarrassing those who do perform brilliantly and with great conscience, I don't know. Nor can I see how the cost of the various shortcomings equates to best value for patients or best value for the funds devoted to the service. You talk about slander yet suggest I'd put a monetary value on human life. Whether I want it or not there is a price - the price relates to the money available to treat people and the professionalism of those who do the treating and facilitate that treatment. The better the standards in every aspect, the better value the care and that means trying to see that all the money is used most effectively all the time. The links listed below show that's clearly not the case and not even nearly the case. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11733719/Medical-blunders-cost-NHS-billions.html https://www.blclaims.co.uk/latest-news/news/2011/04/15/midwife_mistakes_cost_nhs_millions_of_pounds/ https://www.blclaims.co.uk/latest-news/news/2011/04/15/midwife_mistakes_cost_nhs_millions_of_pounds/ http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/news/medication-errors-cost-the-nhs-up-to-25bn-a-year/20066893.article Medical professionals tell you that they're being stretched too thinly and need more staff rather than a change in hours which effectively amounts to a pay cut, you see news reports of medical errors made by the NHS and conclude what exactly? Hopefully that they need more staff and that lawyers are bloodsucking leeches who charge far too much.
Thracian Posted 20 February 2016 Posted 20 February 2016 Medical professionals tell you that they're being stretched too thinly and need more staff rather than a change in hours which effectively amounts to a pay cut, you see news reports of medical errors made by the NHS and conclude what exactly? Hopefully that they need more staff and that lawyers are bloodsucking leeches who charge far too much. Haha now you ask I agree with both points in your last sentence. You hardly need ask about the lawyers or my views on the modern blame culture. And yes, I do think we need more doctors and nurses. Preferably doctors and nurses that are trained here, to our standards, and whose qualifications and abilities can be more easily and verifiably accounted for than I believe to be the case at present. There there is so much false documentation knocking around (not just in medicine I'd emphasise) that nothing seems reliable anymore and the last place for you need incompetence is in the NHS. Also I consider it doubtful practice to be importing doctors and nurses from abroad when they are often so desperately needed in their own lands. As for work practice, my oldest son employs about 25 people in his company and I believe I'm right in saying he never allows overtime apart from exceptional circumstances. He believes 40 hours or whatever is enough and that other aspects of life matter more after that. If the business grows and he needs more people he employs them. That way everyone stays fresh and families (hopefully) stay happy and able to organise their lives too. You can't argue with the medics that they are being stretched but that doesn't justify the steady importing of yet more pressure - there has to be a line drawn. More doctors and nurses to cope with the excess of work that exists now and a curb on immigration and even greater overloading until such a time as there's a better infrastructure to cope and even then there are other important considerations...and none of the above negates the need to improve standards and to get the best value for the money spent instead of seeing so much wasted whether on lawyers, mistakes, over-administration, overpayment for medicines and equipment, corruption or various other things.
The Doctor Posted 20 February 2016 Posted 20 February 2016 So just to clarify - does thracian not understand germ theory, that infection is one of the biggest causes of preventable deaths in hospitals or both? It's almost like the point of hospitals is to not kill the patients...
leicsmac Posted 21 February 2016 Posted 21 February 2016 Haha now you ask I agree with both points in your last sentence. You hardly need ask about the lawyers or my views on the modern blame culture. And yes, I do think we need more doctors and nurses. Preferably doctors and nurses that are trained here, to our standards, and whose qualifications and abilities can be more easily and verifiably accounted for than I believe to be the case at present. There there is so much false documentation knocking around (not just in medicine I'd emphasise) that nothing seems reliable anymore and the last place for you need incompetence is in the NHS. Also I consider it doubtful practice to be importing doctors and nurses from abroad when they are often so desperately needed in their own lands. As for work practice, my oldest son employs about 25 people in his company and I believe I'm right in saying he never allows overtime apart from exceptional circumstances. He believes 40 hours or whatever is enough and that other aspects of life matter more after that. If the business grows and he needs more people he employs them. That way everyone stays fresh and families (hopefully) stay happy and able to organise their lives too. You can't argue with the medics that they are being stretched but that doesn't justify the steady importing of yet more pressure - there has to be a line drawn. More doctors and nurses to cope with the excess of work that exists now and a curb on immigration and even greater overloading until such a time as there's a better infrastructure to cope and even then there are other important considerations...and none of the above negates the need to improve standards and to get the best value for the money spent instead of seeing so much wasted whether on lawyers, mistakes, over-administration, overpayment for medicines and equipment, corruption or various other things. Now, this I largely agree with - the crack about importing and qualifications aside. But, if you want more doctors and nurses trained to a high standard and therefore less errors, more money is going to need to be sourced from somewhere. So just to clarify - does thracian not understand germ theory, that infection is one of the biggest causes of preventable deaths in hospitals or both? It's almost like the point of hospitals is to not kill the patients... And as an addenum, more infections in hospitals mean more use of antibiotics to fight those infections, which mean higher chances of drug-resistant infections becoming more commonplace. If you're a doctor and you get sick and it's contagious, you should isolate yourself, not take some pills and work anyway. That's bad for a couple of reasons.
leicsmac Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 And additionally...in a quick reminder of 'it could be worse', here's a bill for a brief stay in an American hospital. I hope the person paying that either was loaded or had mentally good insurance, because $55k isn't the kind of bill that goes away very quickly otherwise.
Rincewind Posted 22 February 2016 Author Posted 22 February 2016 If David does not tell us then selling and privatisation parts of the NHS is not happening.
Guest MattP Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 Are you sure that hasn't been photoshopped Mac? Might be a different state but my mate had a superb room for 3 nights in Nevada and it was about 600$. Semi private room for 15 grand? How long was he there for?
leicsmac Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 Are you sure that hasn't been photoshopped Mac? Might be a different state but my mate had a superb room for 3 nights in Nevada and it was about 600$. Semi private room for 15 grand? How long was he there for? It's certainly possible Matt given I can't verify it to any degree of accuracy, but a quick search revealed more stories just like it that would add credence. Like this one: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/reddit-user-posts-55000-hospital-bill-appendectomy/story?id=21384393 55k for the simplest surgical procedure in the handbook and a one night stay? Even with insurance he had to pay 11k!
Guest MattP Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 Scandalous; I honestly don't know how one hospital can charge so much compared to another and there appears to be no official body overseeing this.
leicsmac Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 Scandalous; I honestly don't know how one hospital can charge so much compared to another and there appears to be no official body overseeing this. That's what I don't get either. How can there be such a discrepancy in charges for the same reasonably simple procedure? The gap is insane. I mean, there seems to be no kind of standardisation or oversight at all...apart from all the malpractice lawyers getting rich, most likely.
Carl the Llama Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 Whaaat. "For some reasons that are probably quite legitimate, they pad these prices to cover what economists might call fixed costs," McBride said. These include such items as uncompensated care and staff costs, he said. Hospital prices can therefore vary depending on whether the hospital is a teaching hospital, sees more patients with chronic disease or offers only basic care. As a result, patients shouldn't be afraid to ask questions, and -- if necessary -- ask for a price reduction, McBride said. "It's kind of like an opening bid if you went into an auto store," McBride said of hospital billing. "Very few people now pay the sticker price." "So what can I do you for then sir?" "I'm just here to get my appendix removed, it's my first time under the knife I'm a bit nervous" "Appendectomy huh? Oh sure it's a good operation alright but if you really want to make your friends jealous I've got a partial nephrectomy going cheap right now."
Guest MattP Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 That sounds about right. My mate never actually paid his bill anyway, never heard anything about it since. Wonder if it would flag up if he went back to the USA? Can you be denied access to a country over a debt?
Bryn Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 Scandalous; I honestly don't know how one hospital can charge so much compared to another and there appears to be no official body overseeing this. Free market innit.
leicsmac Posted 22 February 2016 Posted 22 February 2016 That sounds about right. My mate never actually paid his bill anyway, never heard anything about it since. Wonder if it would flag up if he went back to the USA? Can you be denied access to a country over a debt? I'd tell him to watch himself if I were you Matt, they tend to be a lot less forgiving about debt collection over there than here. I've seen the repo shows on Dave. ;-)
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