Doctor's strike.

[Guest MattP]

Happy to oblige re. dishonesty:

- It's a fact that most racists will support the "Out" campaign in the EU referendum, but it would be dishonest of me to refer to it as a campaign "backed by racists" and to concentrate on Far Right, or even UKIP figures involved.

- It's a fact that the SWP and other hard left militants will involve themselves in any strike going, but it is dishonest of you to refer to the doctors' strike as "backed by militants" and to concentrate on those militants, who are untypical of those involved.

 

It's also dishonest of you to raise my "nig nogs" comment again. I responded to you before and explained my point: that the terminology changes, but attitudes don't - "nig nogs / illegal immigrants" in the 70s/80s; "Pakis / bogus asylum seekers" in the 90s/2000s; "migrant rapists / Muslim extremists" now (which is not to deny the serious issues involved). I presume you have raised that again now as you see some mileage for smearing and distortion?

 

On a more trivial note, the other day you ridiculed Corbyn for speaking at an election launch for elections that weren't happening. This was completely untrue, as I pointed out. I can only imagine the scorn that you'd have heaped on someone like Ken if he had posted blatant lies without checking them.

 

It is also dishonest of you to keep slyly commenting about the doctors' dispute "not being about money" - clearly implying that they're just greedy bastards after more cash and that they are faking their concerns about long shifts and patient safety....as if there's anything wrong with wanting a decent pay deal and compensation for weekend working, anyway.

 

I'm not sure what you're referring to re. Farage and Miliband. I was annoyed by Farage's "AIDS tourist" comments during the election debate (mud-slinging, Matt-style) but otherwise am quite glad that we have UKIP as a magnet for mild xenophobes, grumbly malcontents, saloon bar reactionaries, aging curtain-twitchers and people pissed off with failing, out-of-touch mainstream parties. Rather UKIP than the BNP or similar. I've never thought that Miliband's defeat was caused by the Murdoch press - I've said in the past that the press probably has less influence now than ever. Well before the election, I was criticising Labour's failure to tackle the big Tory lie that Labour over-spending caused the global crash - and Miliband's preference for policy gimmicks over an alternative vision to present to the electorate. I did criticise the media focus on the potential Lab/SNP coalition, but that was all the media, including the BBC, and just one factor.

 

Sidetrack: a film recommendation - "The Big Short" (all about different blokes gambling on the 2007-2008 financial crash before it broke in the US). Saw it the other day - very good, and right up your street, I'd have thought. 

 

That's enough - and more response than you offered to my points on the health dispute. You prefer smears, distortion and dishonest debate far too often, Matt. It's a shame, as you're well capable of good posts and arguing your corner honestly. I've often repped posts of yours in the past for that reason (reciprocated, I know).

 

Anyway, there's far too much smearing and dishonest propaganda in these politics threads recently - and I've far too much serious "real life stuff" to focus on. So, I'll concentrate on football and comedy threads for an extended period.

 

Bryn is clearly much better informed than any of us about the doctors' dispute, anyway.

 

I have absolutely no problem with you saying the case to leave the EU is backed by racists, in all reality it probably is in the main, in the same way the strike is backed by miltants, in reality is probably is - I certainly don't see either as an untruth or a smear.

 

The "smear" against Corbyn was ran by the press, do we check every source for things we post? No. It's not me smearing the Junior's Doctors saying this is mainly about pay, I think everyone involved in this now seems to recognise that the main sticking point on this dispute is the Saturday premium, if saying a dispute about pay on a Saturday is a dispute about money then yes I'm smearing.

 

I'll give the Big Short a watch, although from the review I read it contains quite a few smears against decent hedge fund managers and bankers.

 

We've been subject to some despicable slander in the media and from the Government in the last few years. Working conditions not just for junior doctors but other members of NHS staff have been appalling for years, it's really only still functioning because we go above and beyond every single day and we still have to read shite in the papers about how we're lazy and workshy.

 

Have you actually got any evidence for this at all?

 

This seems to be a line that every single person in the NHS uses and I've never seen it myself despite subscribing to a paper under the control of Murdoch, every single article I read regarding the health service that tries to suggests some reform IS always followed by huge praise for the NHS staff themselves, often lauded as being totally superhuman in the way they go above and beyond for the patients, it's almost become this years version of the "nothing to do with Islam" prelude that accompanies any talk of dealing with the problems of terrorism. The thing you have to say before offering up any sort of opinion on the subject.

 

Can you genuinely show me these articles that apparantly appear "every day" calling you lazy and workshy? I can't find them. A quick google brings one article from a patient survey up from 2011 and about's it apart from a Telegraph article asking why so many NHS staff are obese.

 

The Government would love to privatise the NHS, what better way to remove it from their balance sheet? Not a shred of doubt in my mind.

 

Can we at least leave this silly boy cried wolf story about wanting to privitise the NHS until election time? People have been saying this since the 60's, no one apart from anyone who hates the Tories believes it anyway. If they wanted to they would have done it by now.

[Jon the Hat]

The Government would love to privatise the NHS, what better way to remove it from their balance sheet? Not a shred of doubt in my mind.

Hunt is vile. Is that really where your sympathy lies? Christ.

 

Why would the government want to remove the NHS from it's balance sheet?  Makes no sense whatsoever.

Its been said before, but if that is the aim, then they made bloody slow progress since they came to power.

 

I didn't say I had sympathy with Hunt, he chose his job.  I just wouldn't want to do it, as I see it as a thankless task.

[Jon the Hat]

Also, why do we need to compare ourselves to other industries? I have no desire to make any such comparison, it's got bugger all to do with our working conditions. If we were demanding more money and fewer hours then yes I could see it's use on a moral level but as I've stated multiple t times now that's not what we're trying to do.

 

The only reason I mention the comparison is because many people in many professions get a salary with no allowances, no extras no overtime, and are expected to work very hard to progress, often in return for training and experience which their employer pays for which ultimately allows them to earn a very good salary anywhere in the world.  Personally I don't see why people who choose a medical career and who the government (taxpayers) pay a fortune to train should complain if they don't get paid a fortune early in their career.

 

Meanwhile it is a shame that this negotiation had to be so messy, but the blame lies at least as much with the BMA as the Government, and frankly they now look ridiculous refusing an offer so very close to what they wanted - as you said I doubt many would strike on the basis of how many Saturdays you have to do to get paid additional allowances.

[leicsmac]

The only reason I mention the comparison is because many people in many professions get a salary with no allowances, no extras no overtime, and are expected to work very hard to progress, often in return for training and experience which their employer pays for which ultimately allows them to earn a very good salary anywhere in the world.  Personally I don't see why people who choose a medical career and who the government (taxpayers) pay a fortune to train should complain if they don't get paid a fortune early in their career.

 

Other people don't involve themselves in a profession where the ultimate aim is beyond monetary value.

 

Or should be, anyway.

[Jon the Hat]

Other people don't involve themselves in a profession where the ultimate aim is beyond monetary value.

 

Or should be, anyway.

 

What a load of crap.  Of course they do.  Many people go into the law to help those less fortunate and in the hunt for justice.  People become engineers and architects to improve the world around them for everyone.  And of course many people become doctors for personal interest, prestige and respect that comes with it.

[Jon the Hat]

Your post Matt reminded me of Patricia Hewitt as health secretary answering any questions vaguely criticising the NHS with "well I think that is offensive to the hard working doctors and nurses of the NHS!  Possibly the most irritating thing in the world ever. 

[leicsmac]

What a load of crap.  Of course they do.  Many people go into the law to help those less fortunate and in the hunt for justice.  People become engineers and architects to improve the world around them for everyone.  And of course many people become doctors for personal interest, prestige and respect that comes with it.

 

Are any of those professions (outside of lawyers in a death penalty state) actively involved in the preservation of human life - which is the concept beyond monetary value I was referring to?

 

If you're arguing that there are other such concepts that are beyond price, fair enough - but they're not exactly numerous and while I like engineering such things do have a quantifiable material cost.

 

Of course doctors enjoy a reasonable amount of status and respect, but to say they're similar to other business professions is - I think - viewing human life as a commodity, which is pretty awful.

[Guest MattP]

Your post Matt reminded me of Patricia Hewitt as health secretary answering any questions vaguely criticising the NHS with "well I think that is offensive to the hard working doctors and nurses of the NHS!  Possibly the most irritating thing in the world ever. 

 

It's the way politics has gone, the pathetic pre-ramble you hear everytime a controversial subject is discussed on Question Time. It's childish and embarrassing.

[Thracian]

Figure me this: If Thracian should ever need medical attention, can you imagine what he'd ask his doctor or nurse on the very first day?

 

"Sir/madam, are you a Socialist? Do you vote Labour or Communist? If so, you're absolutely not going to lay hands on me!"

My son's partner and effective daughter-in-law needed proper medical expertise. My last sight of her was with her the newborn baby she never see, kiss or cuddle lying unfelt in her cradled arms why she waited for her life-support machine to be turned off in the shithouse that served as a later scandal-hit Birmingham hospital. She was in her early 30s.

My son's treatment thereafter was appalling until doctors finally did the tests (about two years later) on my grandaughter that he'd asked for (when she was born) and found out that he was right and that they should have been treating both her (and him) in an entirely different way.

My wife's life was saved by the brilliance of doctor's at the Queens Medical Centre in Nottingham and one of my sons' lives too by the, presumably, socialist father of the person I referred to earlier, so there have been things to be thankful for and which I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge.

But both were long ago.

Sadly I can only detail incompetence and frustration in referring to almost all my NHS visits (all involving others) over the last five years or so and I'm not surprised given all the time the medics find to be complaining on their websites.

The downswing in standards has been dramatic, for all the uncovering of so many scandals and malpractices that would supposedly never be allowed in the future and offered, therefore, the theoretical promise of improvements.

[Thracian]

To be honest, that's a detailed and well structured post and I can see where you are coming from. I spoke to my wife about this yesterday (she is a nurse) and she was telling me that it's almost impossible to get prescriptions at the weekend because the hospital pharmacy doesn't do antisocial hours. You are right if the services aren't their how can this all work?

As someone who did a job involving stacks of unsocial hours for very little in the way of extra pay I really don't understand the moaning.

Teachers, doctors, journalists and many others know what's expected when they enter their professions. The irony is that many seem to support immigration and, therefore, the notion of increasing their workload, for all that they complain that they don't want to work any harder.

And that at a time when the existing population is living longer.

Makes no sense to me except for the ulterior motives of squeezing more pay from the system and bringing in more staff from abroad (given we scandalously don't train enough of our own) to place an even greater burden on other services that are already already overstretched, but doubtless swelling the ranks of socialism at the same time.

Forget that importing expertise to the UK is at the expense of adequate expertise being available in countries where it's also desperately needed, and that the ever increasing strain on services is already creating seemingly insurmountable problems.

[Bryn]

I don't know which part of "we are not asking for more money" is so complicated.

[Guest MattP]

This is from the BMA website, it really is hard to understand how something so close can led to what it has.

 

Trying to post them but not allowed to use the extension, you can view the pay proposals from each side here.

 

http://www.bma.org.uk/juniorconsultantcontractsribbon

Did you find any of these everyday articles that call NHS staff lazy and workshy Bryn?

[Bryn]

Not yet, I'm at a training session and my nets pretty indifferent

Edit: I'm postinh in the break I hasten to add!

[Alf Bentley]

I have absolutely no problem with you saying the case to leave the EU is backed by racists, in all reality it probably is in the main, in the same way the strike is backed by miltants, in reality is probably is - I certainly don't see either as an untruth or a smear.

 

The "smear" against Corbyn was ran by the press, do we check every source for things we post? No. It's not me smearing the Junior's Doctors saying this is mainly about pay, I think everyone involved in this now seems to recognise that the main sticking point on this dispute is the Saturday premium, if saying a dispute about pay on a Saturday is a dispute about money then yes I'm smearing.

 

I'll give the Big Short a watch, although from the review I read it contains quite a few smears against decent hedge fund managers and bankers.

 

 

I'm out of the politics stuff now for the foreseeable future, concentrating on real life, football, music and humour, and have had my say already.

 

But re. "The Big Short":

I didn't see it as critical of the hedge fund blokes who foresaw the crash. The ones who came out looking bad were the big investment banks, the ratings agencies, govt regulators and the Federal Reserve.

Mainly, though, it was just an entertaining, informative, often hilarious film. Spectator review here: http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/fascinating-sexy-improbably-compelling-and-scathingly-funny-the-big-short-reviewed/

 

I didn't see it as anti-capitalist, either, just anti the mixture of greed, complacency and corruption of the big players, which allowed the hedge fund blokes to make billions effectively betting on a crisis in the US housing market / financial system, and ultimately the global economy. The hedge fund people are depicted as a range of interesting human characters who have realised that the emperor has no clothes, presenting many of them with a moral dilemma - a fairly sympathetic portrayal. How true it is to the detail of real individuals/companies I've no idea, but the overall analysis seemed pretty sound. I just thought that the twin elements of capitalist economics and gambling would be right up your street.

 

Maybe they could do a remake in which Corbyn leads a mob of junior doctors, dole scroungers, lefty teachers and Muslim immigrants on a rampage through Wall Street, beating all the saintly bankers to death with their Socialist Worker placards? 

 

Anyway, this should probably be in the films thread, not the News and Current Events Forum (or "FascistTalk", as it should be known  ) 

[Jon the Hat]

Are any of those professions (outside of lawyers in a death penalty state) actively involved in the preservation of human life - which is the concept beyond monetary value I was referring to?

 

If you're arguing that there are other such concepts that are beyond price, fair enough - but they're not exactly numerous and while I like engineering such things do have a quantifiable material cost.

 

Of course doctors enjoy a reasonable amount of status and respect, but to say they're similar to other business professions is - I think - viewing human life as a commodity, which is pretty awful.

 

Certainly not my intention to suggest human life is a commodity, and I would also point out that there are a lot of other people involved in life saving who don't have the profession of a doctor, from lifeboat volunteers to Paramedics, so I am not sure I see the point.

[Thracian]

I can understand Thracians desire to only have Tory men lay their hands on him. We all have our preferences, after all.

Not something I like to joke about.

[Finnegan]

Not something I like to joke about.

I know, Tony, that sort of prejudice has no place in humour pal. I'm actually with you on that.

I know you'll let men of ANY political affiliation feel you up.

[Nick]

I could be tempted to vote UKIP if it meant I got a go on Tony?

[Thracian]

That is how I see  it which is why I said in my original post that I would be interested in junior doctors POV rather than repeat what jeremy Hunt has said. Unless I cram seven years of med school into one night I do not feel I am qualified to see both points of view.

Obviously the doctors need to study the contract to ensure that the deal is fair and will not have any adverse affect on patient care.

You do have to wonder how many have actually got the qualifications they claim and even if they have some clearly need to be back in the classroom rather than worrying about politics and pay contracts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35597244

[Thracian]

I know, Tony, that sort of prejudice has no place in humour pal. I'm actually with you on that.

I know you'll let men of ANY political affiliation feel you up.

Not nearly as quickly as you by the sound of it.

[Buce]

I certainly don't have a utopian view of the NHS. After 14 months of frustration and NHS mismanagement, I'm finally close (I think) to getting a proper explanation of why my mother died suddenly in hospital. My wife has lost most of the sight in one eye due to delay and complacency by NHS and private GP practice alike. I've spent 14 months of stressful frustration dealing with 15+ different health and social care agencies about my father's ongoing decline - partly due to their lack of resources, but partly due to mismanagement, an over-attention to systems and procedures, and a lack of common sense, as far as I can tell. In contrast, my own medical issues have been handled quite efficiently so far.

All sorts of arguments can be made about the NHS and the doctors' strike, but I'm afraid your post is the biggest pile of unsupported, spittle-flecked garbage I've ever read. It is honestly a candidate for the worst post I've read in 7+ years on FoxesTalk.

Some quick questions:

- If "you can't overstate labour activism in the NHS", how come the last junior doctors' strike was in 1975?

- If it's just Corbynites with their own agenda, how come 98% of junior doctors voted for the strike? Are they really that dim, that brainwashed by Corbyn - when the rest of the nation isn't?

- If "the service is getting worse and worse", shouldn't this Govt have done something about it over the past 6 years?

- You quote £100k+ salaries for GPs, but how much do junior doctors earn?

- If high salaries for GPs in private practice can be used to justify changes in pay & conditions for NHS junior doctors, can high salaries at arms companies be used to justify changes to the pay & conditions of squaddies?

- You say that junior doctors "don't want to accept the responsibilities for which they are employed". So how many hours per week do these lazy sods work? 10? 15? I bet they never work overtime, eh? What are their absenteeism rates?

- Is the BMA a "Labour-backing trade union"? It's not even affiliated to the TUC, never mind the Labour Party, is it?

- You link to the site of the "International Marxist Tendency" as evidence of the "ideology" behind the strike....Does that mean that I could link to the BNP as evidence of the ideology behind Tory Eurosceptics?

You seem to see junior doctors as idlers and Marxist radicals inspired or brainwashed by Corbyn and hell-bent on conflict. I thought they were mostly from conventional backgrounds and motivated by vocation or career - and were striking for the first time in 40 years.

I'm more concerned about Leicester market being taken over by the Monster Raving Loony Party, led by a bonkers would-be Enoch Powell.

Seriously, I really miss MooseBreath. He was a right-winger able to argue a decent case - something now sorely missing (Webbo & MattP have their good moments, but I see you've repped Thracian's post, Matt?! WTF?!).

I might stick to football and comedy threads in future, the standard in here is getting so low. Hats off, Thracian, that's some of the most worthless garbage I've ever read!

Fvcking hell, Alf, I'd hate to incur your wrath!

[Buce]

I've got literally no idea what Thracian is trying to say so I'm not sure how to respond.

You're at the end of a very long queue..

[Rincewind]

Fvcking hell, Alf, I'd hate to incur your wrath!

I thought he was holding back.

[Thracian]

Fvcking hell, Alf, I'd hate to incur your wrath!

It's a rant that doesn't actually do itself justice except in emphasising the worthlessness of continuing this debate. The NHS is and will always remain a political soapbox to be used as a focus for discontent whenever the socialists are sidelined.

But just to serve as example of my "rant" comment here's a link concerning absence from work:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6066181/NHS-staff-paid-overtime-when-off-sick.html

It seems ironic that medical staff should have more sickness leave than others but, as for the "unique pressures" relating to the generous leave payments what a totally indefensible comment. There is nothing "unique" about the dangers of their being attacked. What about the police, teachers, market traders, bailiffs, social services staff etc?

These are more recent figures to show that the trend seems to be worsening. As someone who can't recall taking more than three days sick leave my entire life - on the basis of it meaning some other poor sod having to do my work instead and it being no use any employer paying me if I'm not there, I'm hardly impressed by people taking nine days each on top, no doubt, of all their normal leave entitlement. But it's exactly what I expected to read.

http://www.cipd.co.uk/pm/peoplemanagement/b/weblog/archive/2013/07/23/nhs-staff-sick-leave-on-the-rise-figures-show.aspx

What I do agree with Alf about, is that there are more worthwhile things to do than debate the NHS.So on that basis, I'm out.

[Carl the Llama]

It's a rant that doesn't actually do itself justice except in emphasising the worthlessness of continuing this debate. The NHS is and will always remain a political soapbox to be used as a focus for discontent whenever the socialists are sidelined.

But just to serve as example of my "rant" comment here's a link concerning absence from work:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/6066181/NHS-staff-paid-overtime-when-off-sick.html

It seems ironic that medical staff should have more sickness leave than others but, as for the "unique pressures" relating to the generous leave payments what a totally indefensible comment. There is nothing "unique" about the dangers of their being attacked. What about the police, teachers, market traders, bailiffs, social services staff etc?

These are more recent figures to show that the trend seems to be worsening. As someone who can't recall taking more than three days sick leave my entire life - on the basis of it meaning some other poor sod having to do my work instead and it being no use any employer paying me if I'm not there, I'm hardly impressed by people taking nine days each on top, no doubt, of all their normal leave entitlement. But it's exactly what I expected to read.

http://www.cipd.co.uk/pm/peoplemanagement/b/weblog/archive/2013/07/23/nhs-staff-sick-leave-on-the-rise-figures-show.aspx

What I do agree with Alf about, is that there are more worthwhile things to do than debate the NHS.So on that basis, I'm out.

Good thing you're stepping out of this one because that's proof (if anyone needed it) that you disengage your brain going into this subject.  It seems ironic to you that people whose profession requires they spend their time in a building filled with sick people might be more likely to catch something than a bloke working in an office (though maybe not more likely than working in your office if you're going in to work harbouring illnesses for others to catch).  On top of that you want them to go back into work once they have caught something because going bed-to-bed infecting people already fighting off other illnesses is always a great idea.  Christ.